I've two 1/35 SEALs I'm building for a little vignette. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what to arm the rifleman and what is the best AK-47 version. The figures are supposed to be behind enemy lines.

Is it better to take an AK-47 (Finnish or Romanian version) or a M-14 into the jungle for modern combat? I've read that M-14s were unwieldy in the bush. My other figure carries a M60E3 and I know that they both fire different bullets of the 7.62mm.

I've plenty of weapons to for other options:

* SR-25
* M-16A4
* FN FAL
* DML weapons sets

I'm looking for someone who knows a lot about their guns. Thanks.

Honestly If I were behind enemy lines and in the bush I'd take an AK-47, since in most places you could fire one off and nobody would think twice about it. Also the penetration power at close range of the AK-47's round is similar to the M-14, in jungle combat most is done in close quarters. Plus you can't jam an AK no matter how dirty you get it, but that's just what I think!

If you are talking about modern era, there is a version of the M14 that is called the M14 EBR M-14 EBR that is very common in the SOCOM community now. You could pick either one and be ok. You are more likely to see a US inventory weapon these days in a seals hand than an AK. Soldiers marksmanship and target designation capabilities are greatly enhanced by the SOPMOD package SOPMOD that accompanies most SOCOM teams on deployments. The capability/flexibility just isn't there with the AK system.

The M-14 and the M60E3 fire the same bullet. The only difference is one system is belt feed and one is feed from a box magazine.

If you were doing a Vietnam dio, I would cast my vote for the AK.

Thanks for the replies.

No, I'm not doing a Vietnam diorama, but a current 2007 one.

I read that the best AK-47s were the M70, Valmet 62/76, and Romanian AIMS. Can anyone confirm this? Thanks.

Hey Pete,

I remember talking about this once with you.....another AK that I always heard was good was the East German one. You may recall some of those CIA guys at the prison in Mazar E Sharif armed themselves with this variant. One would assume they could have brought along their "pick of the lot", so to speak, so the fact that they chose that version might say something.

Rob

Hey Rob!

Lo and behold, I've found an old article in one of my gun magazines (2001) that said the Yugoslav M90 is considered the most accurate AK in the world (well, at least at that time). Funny thing is that it was fired at 100m, but I guess for "bush-warfare" that's good enough.

However, the article also went on to review the FN FAL, G3, M-14, and M-16. Briefly glancing, it seems to say that the G3 is the better rifle. The M-14 seems to have been replaced by the Mk 11, the MK 11 being the most accurate rifle now although I don't know if that means firing from prone and calm situations.

I'm not going to really sweat it much. I used the NAM SEAL TEAM clip vest for one figure and those exposed clips do look like curved AK clips. So AK it seems to be...and of course whatever gun fits in those DML hands, lol.

On the ammo issue --
Since the M60 is belt-fed, it makes very little difference what calibre rounds the rifle fires, because it'll be mag-fed, and it's unlikely there's gonna be time to reload belts with rifle rounds or vice versa. If it was a mag-fed LMG or SAW, then perhaps it'll be sensible for both weapons to have the same round.

On sound signature --
If you're having a US/NATO GPMG being used behind enemy lines, it won't matter that the rifle's an AK, cos the GPMG will give the game away. So a US soldier's better off with a familiar weapon like the M4, which is nice and short. Dunno much about the M14 EBR (is it full auto/burst-capable?), but it's probably too long.

On jungle guns --
The AK family is probably the best, bar none, when it comes to durability, dirt-proofing, and knock-down power. I doubt you'll ever get a satisfactory answer on the best AK though. I know the Valmet's pretty good, but I think the Chinese T81 is better, and so is the South African R4 (which is based on the Galil which is based on the AK), which can be dragged through thick mud and then fired without even wiping clean.

I would believe it to be mission dependent. Like its been said, these guys have the run of the lot to choose from. If the mission requires being discrete, then an AK-type weapon might be used as a primary weapon, but I think more often than not, SEALs and SF-types will stick to their AR-style rifles (M-4s, the new HKs (-416?), etc), where their adapability with M203s, scopes of all kinds, PEQ-2s, etc increases the firepower of a detachment without unnecessarily overburdening the unit - a major factor is selecting a loadout for a mission.

However, addng an AK-style weapon slung over the back wouldn't be out of place though.

Jeff

Jeff, most modern AK-47s as well as the AK-74 family, can take both grenade launchers and a range optical, infra-red, night vision and laser scopes. There's a variant being developed specifically for US special forces, and someone here once posted a link, but I can't find it.

I would def take my AK to tha Bush not that other plastic crap

AK would be my choice also.

And make sure Russian Made.

Just about every Country in Soviet block made one.

I say Ak-47.

Most ly becasue if you take a US made weapon, you run the risk of running out of ammo. It seems like every country we end up fighting uses the AK. So there should be plenty of spare ammo around.

The DML AK weapons sets don't give the most modern or accurate AKs since the sets are already several years old. A gun magazine I have said that the MS90 was the most accurate AK, but it doesn't have a bananna clip, nor does DML make one.

The reason I'm wondering is because I glued the DML "NAM SEAL TEAM II's" frontal exposed magazine vest to a figure. The tops of curved 30-round clips are exposed and the pouches clearly show the distinctive curvature of the bananna clip, which kind of limits the rifles to AK or M4/M-16 unless I remove that vest and glue in MOLLE and ALICE pouches because I seriously doubt the SR-25, M-14, G3, and other 20-round 7.62mm rifles use bananna clips.

In any case, I read online that the Finnish Rk-76T and East German MPi-K AKs are the most accurate of the lot. The AKM is better than the standard AK. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, the AKM was an improvement of the AK47.

If you're planning to equip your seals with RK62 / 76 / 95's, I'd recommend reconsidering.
Although they're one of the the better AK clones/variants, I think it's unlikely they'd end up with SEALs. The rifles weren't that widely exported, especially when compared to other AK rifles (I remember reading that some small countries tested them, and Qatar ordered a bunch of more elaborate rifles for honor guard use.) Foreign military usage is low, and I think civilian versions are somewhat different than the originals (semi-auto only, re-chambered for different ammo perhaps, I don't remember exactly). This site says that export versions of RK62 were chambered for 5,56mm NATO, though: http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as43-e.htm.
The chances of these rifles getting into hands of hostile groups would probably be slim, as export weapon sales are pretty strickly regulated in Finland (but never say never, I guess).
But then, I'm not an expert on the subject. I once borrowed this book from the library about RK's but I've forgotten what it said about export versions.

Btw, you got Dragon's AK weapon set part 2?
I dug up a pic of the box and there seems to be RK76(TP) and Valmet's M82 bullpup included.
The RK76 can be safely used as either the regular model and the folding stock version. The tubular stock is the same in both versions, the folding version has it hinged where it attaches to the reciever. Cut off the hinges & stuff, leaving just the tube, and you got the regular version.

That's the folding stock version, notice the hinge.
Remember to stay away from the bullpup M82. It was meant to be a compact rifle for paratroopers, but it never got past prototype stage. The design was flawed (kept hitting landing troopers in the face), and it wasn't very durable.

One more thing. If you end up with no use for the RK's, you can always send them to me!
Years ago, I saw that pt.2 AK set in a LHS, but passed and next time it was gone. I been regretting that since. (the same shop also had the WWII allied infantry weapon set, which I also passed, only to regret later) Those sets are damn hard to find in Finland anymore, being out of production.
Doing a couple of modern Finnish figures would be awesome. But then, finding suitable figures and converting them is another job.

There was a "short run" weapon developed for the SEALS for the caves in Tora Bora in late 2001.

It was essentially a 7.62 x 39 M4 Carbine. It used AK magazines. The idea was to bypass the ammunition resupply issue whilst retaining the advantage of "muscle memory" that comes from repetitive training drills. From my recollection, only about 20 were manufactured, they were delivered a couple of weeks after order was placed and used in the cave complexes.

Can't remember the designation, but I remember an article and pic in a "Jane's" online mag in late 2002, early 2003.

Its called the SR47, and it was designed by Knights Armament. It was basically fielded in Afghanland as a test rifle to SOF troops.
Btw, the best AK mods are made right here in the US. I forget the company, but they are a small cottage operation. The article was published in an issue of Shotgun News a couple years back.

Eetu, thanks for the Rk-62 info. That was really helpful !

Yes, the SR-47. I read that only six were made and it wasn't much of a success since the M4 receiver had problems feeding off of a genuine AK magazine.

In fact, I made it ! But the figure shown isn't the one I'm working on.

So far the best version of AK47 is the Yugoslav made derivative under the mark of AP M70 AB2 (simply means autromatic rifle - AP/ M70 and AB2 means that it is the version with colapsible stock.
It can be beefed up with all the gucci kit one should desire for the job. I used this one in AFG and it never failed me...


As far as the weapon for the job is concerned the real question is not the calibre of bullets but the cartridge that gets left behind when the shooter moves on. In the modern day battlefields the 7.62x39 mm does not cause suspicion whereas any other cartridges might be the cause for alert.

gh

M70? Cool, the DML "AK Weapons Set #2" has the M70 ! I may finally be close to some conclusion to this predicament :-)--

I really wish someone would change the AK's safety/fire selector. It's such a lady to switch in a hurry or when you wanna be quiet. China replaced it with a thumb selector on the left, and it's great. Israel did the Same wih the Galil. I wonder why no one else bothered.

It's not that big of a drag...
With some carefull aplication of raw force one can loosen the selector switch and the thingie works smooth and farely quiet.

all the rest is just a matter of drill....

BTW SIG makes a really good rifle, which uses the same principle with a selector switch of AK and a thumb switch on the other side...
Really nice weapon ...

gh

Hmmm... I think I may've typed incorrectly and the forum thought I was typing HTML so the rest of my above post doesn't show.

The DML AK sets contain these AKs as well. Does anyone know anything about them? I went to Wikipedia, but Wiki doesn't cover all of these AKs. For now, I'm only interested in the 7.62mm versions and not the 5.45mm ones.

AMD

FPK

86S

VZ58P

AMD-63

PMK

Wieger STG 941

M76

AMD 65

AMP 69

M85

Thanks in advance !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_M76
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_65