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Conterfeit figures Armorama member
spooky6
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

We just cannot ban a member of this community with out some solid proof they are one and the same.


Which is why I started this off by asking Jim how sure we were it was the same guy. His answer satisfied me that it's generally believed to be the same person.


Quoted Text

He speaks enough English to make an EBAY ad in English doesn't he


I don't think you need English for ebay. The site translates into most major languages.


Quoted Text

Poverty is not a defense for STEALING


Certainly not. I wasn't giving you a defence, but a reason. And people living in poverty don't buy resin models; it's about affordability. A US$40 fig will be 25% of the salary of a junior yuppy in India or SL. That's not poverty, 'cos the cost of living is much lower than in the west, but it still makes thingss like a modelling hobby an unattainable luxury.

But enough said. I just felt some action should be taken since the guy's a member. I think I've made my point.
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:20 AM UTC
Dave, you point is well taken, and understood.
but should we get the hangman's noose out for the seller or buyers? Perhaps some of the buyers are members also?
OR let them decide on their own destiny? Their own integrity?

I really do believe you (and a lot of other members) are intelligent enough to know how to handle it on this site if and when it comes up.

On a personal note Dave, my fathers' brother (AKA Uncle Albert) was a missionary in Ceylon and India for 40 plus years, so I know a little about the culture.
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:39 AM UTC
Let's just consider another aspect of this. Anyone who buys a resin figure on EBAY is NOT some kind of 'casuall/Impulse' buyer. Any modeler who buys a (resin) figure at $5-6 knows full well that it ISN'T legal. Therefore, the buyer shares exactly the same guilt as the seller. Economics 1.01 - no market, no demand. These are specialized items - we're talking modelers here...

Aspects of this thread are rapidly turning into a Rope-Party, until it DIRECTLY impacts this network, and until we have HARD, IRREFUTABLE evidence that this is the SAME person, I don't see what we can (or should do)...

goldenpony
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 12:55 AM UTC
It is a no win type of thing. People will continue to rip other people off no matter what we try to do. It is already well known there are certain places in this world that don't give two hoots about copyright laws. I had seen those figures on Ebay and flags went up when I saw what they were going for. When I buy I Ebay I try to get the best deal I can, however, I also have my own set of rules I go by. First off, if it is too good of a deal, there is a reason fro it. There are too fakes and rip offs out there.

It would be great if we could all report that seller to Ebay and get him removed, but he will just pop up again with a different ID and start all over again.

jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 03:23 AM UTC
One thing i'd like to raise, is why was this all brought up on open forum when it could have been discussed with JimS via e-mail?

Not a question of the Network having having anything to hide (or even justify), simply that threads like this have a tendency to 'veer-off' in unexpected (and undesired) directions...
staff_Jim
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 03:55 AM UTC
Jim,
Actually I think I remember Shay PMing me or emailing me about this some time back as he said. Unfortunately as it was back then no real proof linking these two accounts was presented so there is really no absolute judgement I can make on this.

All,
As Keith said show me proof and perhaps I will reconsider. I have also emailed "caomao" and asked him to respond to this topic. Since he hasn't even been on the site in many months I am not exactly sure why this is a 'burning' issue.

Another theoretical "where this road takes us" question though... There was a recent topic about Trumpeter stealing copyrighted ideas from a modeler. Do we stop all contact with Trumpeter, remove all mention of their kits from the site?

Thanks,
Jim
staff_Jim
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 03:57 AM UTC
What I *really* need to be spending my time on is fixing the pagination bug (he says as my last post was the first post of page 2).

Jim
Charlie-66
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 04:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jim,
Actually I think I remember Shay PMing me or emailing me about this some time back as he said. Unfortunately as it was back then no real proof linking these two accounts was presented so there is really no absolute judgement I can make on this.

All,
As Keith said show me proof and perhaps I will reconsider. I have also emailed "caomao" and asked him to respond to this topic. Since he hasn't even been on the site in many months I am not exactly sure why this is a 'burning' issue.

Another theoretical "where this road takes us" question though... There was a recent topic about Trumpeter stealing copyrighted ideas from a modeler. Do we stop all contact with Trumpeter, remove all mention of their kits from the site?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim, I understand the tricky situation you face, and I believe that the discretion and caution you are showing are the right way to go. BTW thanks to you and all the staff for a great site!
AndersHeintz
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 04:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Anders,
I am curious. If I were to open an account on eBay using your username and sold a slew of copies... you would be okay with all your Internet accounts being banned?

Jim


If it was explained to me why I was banned yes, I would be ok with it. I can proove that I don't sell stolen copies.


This is not as much of a gray area you think. It is directly related to the hobby, to this site, and to this community. Remember, this site is being sponsored by adds by manufacturers, Alpine used to (still do?) run adds here, they are getting hurt by these illegal activities, and if nothing is done to these low lifes it could hurt business worse then it does allready.

I have spoken to Roger Saunders before about this very same issue. And guess what? The reason for very few (hardly any the last years) new releases from Hornet and Wolf is due to people stealing them much like this character is doing. And all of us are loosing some great figures due to the few people who have no remorse.

It is so easy to say...well just don't buy it!

If it worked like that then sure, there would be no market for it, but obviously it doesnt work like that. People will buy if they can get a deal, I only buy on ebay when I get a deal, but I know what Im buying and I never would buy a counterfit. However, all people may not be as market smart and do not realize they are not legit copies.

The seller also has responsibilities, if there is no supply - there is no demand, it is easier to control the supply then the demand, which is why we need to hit this guy in every way we can.
AndersHeintz
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 05:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Another theoretical "where this road takes us" question though... There was a recent topic about Trumpeter stealing copyrighted ideas from a modeler. Do we stop all contact with Trumpeter, remove all mention of their kits from the site?



If they are blatantly stealing others work then yes, they should be punished and should not get a free pass.
Galwitz
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 05:33 AM UTC
Just out of curiosity... Did anybody notify eBay? They have clear policy about couterfeits. I would think its in their best interest to knock this guy out ASAP. There is a link on the page I have posted above to report such prohibited items. It's however a bit tedious - you need to report item numbers and the form accepts up to 10 only...
blackbug67
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:19 AM UTC
Just in case everyone has more time to ponder the various points, let me add another. I don't normally buy resin figures from any source, my figure painting skills don't match the quality of good resin figures, and I know nothing about pricing of figures in Asia. So how does one know that a figure being sold on eBay is a rip-off copy? The ad in question doesn't say the figure is Verlinden or any other brand.

Regards,

L Witter
goldenpony
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Zimbabwe
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:22 AM UTC
I wish it were as simple as reporting him to Ebay, but they will more than likely not do anything except remove the questionable item(s). Ebay is out to make $$$$$$$. Yes, they have rules, but they allow people to break them if that person is a powerseller or has a high rating. I know this from first hand experience. I had a German WWII post card listed with Hitler on the front. At the same time a powerseller had the same one listed. Mine was removed, his was not. I even reported his to them. They left it.

I wish Ebay would follow their own policy, but they don't. I have given them my opinion about their policies on more than one occasion and have been banned for it as well. Report him and see if they will remove them, but I think they won't. (I would like to be wrong)

spongya
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MODELGEEK
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


I'd rather see him face the questions and consequences for his action on the site by fellow members, than simply sending him off to some other site incognito. He comes from a culture where there is no such thing as Copyright Laws, not to mention tainted pet foods, lead paint on toys, and tainted food products. Perhaps this culture has no integrity or dignity also? He's the only one that can truly answer that question.


This was a very racist and ignorant comment. Please don't label entire cultures and civilizations in such a degradatory manner. (For the tained products say thanks for the Walmart-culture instead.)
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:43 AM UTC
To make matters even worse....

I believe it was last year that I bought a figure at an event... from a stand... They sold it in a small ziploc bag... nothing weird there MK35 uses the same type of package. In the ziploc bag was a small card. Of the paingted figure and the manufacturers name. Price tag was as I believe it 10 euro. I didn't know the figure... as In never seen it before. But I liked it since it was an original pose, and at that price I did not have the idea I was buying a counterfeit figure. However some weeks later I found out that the figure in question was a figure from Yosci... And surprise that was not the manufacturer of my figure which clearly told me it was Miniature People. Now obviously I have bought a copy. But I wasn't aware of it. Probably you guys know every figure on the market... but I don't. Does that make me guilty?
I think I'm not the only one on the world who is not aware of all the figures (certainly not the resin figures) in the world. I know I steer away from Miniature people next time but that is only because of experience... Not of knowledge.


Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 06:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

He's the only one that can truly answer that question.


Feel free to think what you like Andras, you have that right, but the bottom line is and I'll repeat slowly so you can understand it:

He's the only one that can truly answer that question about his integrity and dignity. If his family, friends, teachers, and culture hasn't taught him right from wrong. Obviously it hasn't, if it did, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Would we?


jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have also emailed "caomao" and asked him to respond to this topic. Since he hasn't even been on the site in many months I am not exactly sure why this is a 'burning' issue.


Does anyone actually READ previous posts? I don't think this is quite a matter of life and death/future of the universe/immediacy as some people are trying to imply.

Also, just how many OTHER sites is this guy a member of? Is Armorama/Kitmaker being singled out for attention?

These are all questions I (for one) would like an answer to...
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:17 AM UTC
I'm in no way condoning counterfeiting, but quite a number of posts have said the buyer shares the blame.

Yes, if the buyer recognizes the source of the fugure. But as Faust notes above, none of us knows every figure, past or present.

Consider a newby or somone who doesn't hang out here or at other figure sites. He isn't aware of the counterfeiting problem and is looking for bargains. Don't we all look for bargains, whether bottom fishing the sale bin at a show, the private vendor thinning his collection , the "club table?" Don't we regularly complain that E-bay s no longer the bargain hunter's paradise it was 10 years ago?
AndersHeintz
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Does anyone actually READ previous posts? I don't think this is quite a matter of life and death/future of the universe/immediacy as some people are trying to imply.

Also, just how many OTHER sites is this guy a member of? Is Armorama/Kitmaker being singled out for attention?

These are all questions I (for one) would like an answer to...


Jim....

Of course I read the replies. No need for you to feel that Armorama is singled out for any reason other then the thread was started here and it was pointed out that a guy who is stealing others work, blatantly copying it and selling them as his own happens to be a member here. If this exact same scenario was playing out on any other forum I would take the same position, so don't go feeling picked on now.

Of course it is not a life and death situation, even you should realize that, but it is a problem, and to simply choose to over look it and blame it on people who buy them is sad, and frankly quite ignorant. This guy is only one person, but when there are a lot of them out there they all make an impact on the figure industry. If you let everyone go saying it is the buyers fault....and the seller is obvioulsy a thriving entrepreneur, although what he does is wrong, we are going to sit by and do nothing....then it becomes a bigger problem.

That the guy is not much of a contributor shouldnt make much difference, he is probably too busy stealing new figures to have time to browse the forums, but it is rather the principle of the stance that you take.

kiwibelg
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:59 AM UTC
Hi guys,
Firstly my excuses for bringing this up in an open forum.
The only thing i wanted to bring to Jim's attention was the fact that this guy was selling copied figures, some of which were appearing in the figure/diorama sections of this site.
I remembered a thread from a good year ago or so when various guys such as Taesung and Anders layed out in general what happens to when their work is copied and the after effects.
I was by no means trying to force Jim into playing the role of judge judy and going after the guy but i felt it was something that needed to be looked upon.




Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 08:04 AM UTC
Here's his last post kindly brought up to the front page by Sponga.

http://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/96743&page=1

The perfect opportunity for a lynching.
Of course I'll refuse to participate.
You see, I believe he does have the right to defend himself, and face his accusers.
I believe he has a right to learn the difference between right and wrong. I truly don't think he knows it. Unfortunately I don't speak the language to explain it to him.
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 08:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Of course it is not a life and death situation, even you should realize that, but it is a problem, and to simply choose to over look it and blame it on people who buy them is sad, and frankly quite ignorant


Thanks for keeping me right - always so nice to be corrected...

I've gone on record (on more than one occasion) on this site, railing against the pirates. I do get a sneaking suspicion that one of the major problems is also the attitude of E-Bay (more or less a 'Screw you if you aren't a big seller'). Yes, i'm tired of these people, i'm equally tired of the neanderthals who (KNOWINGLY) keep them in business. It's equally tiresome when these sellers originate from China and we have to listen to a PC dirge warning us not to be racist. China has broken EVERY rule of International copyright (well they would have done if they'd signed them in the first place). They've taken away thousands of jobs in the west with their disregard for ANY kind of civilized respect for intellectual property. Nor do I want to hear about the size of salaries in the East - no more than I want to hear poverty being used as a justification for terrorism.

They are thieving, scumbag, pond-life. No more, no less.

As for the choice of this Forum to begin the debate again - the jury is firmly out on that one. If it happened a few days ago, fair enough... but it didn't.

With this thread, i'm also getting a touch tired of the double standards which some are exhibiting. Criticize the (alleged) seller of these figures and then praise his work on another thread? What is this, Surrealism 1.01?
taesung
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ALPINE MINIATURES
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 09:52 AM UTC
First of all, I'd like to thank all modelers who support the
genuine models and boycott the fakes. Also thanks to Shay
for bringing the issue to our attention.

Anders, how come you didn't let me know about this thread?
And no, I didn't read all 46 replies.

FYI, this is the name and address I received from the eBay seller
when I won the bid on the counterfeit of Alpine figure:
zhang jie
room506 No.1 caobao road3158
ShangHai, ShangHai 201101
I'm not sure if this is the same guy as the Armorama member in question, though.

In my humble opinion, anybody claims that he had bought a counterfeit figure on
eBay "unknowingly" is B.S.ing and testing the intellectual level of Armorama members.
Do you send money to a stranger in China without checking out the auction item thoroughly???
I don't. If you do, good luck!
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out whether the figure is genuine or not.
No brand name showing, no packaing showing, too cheap, located in China, etc. are all the
signs of counterfeits.

In earlier post, someone suggested lowering the price to compete with the cheap counterfeits.
Wow! Are you serious? Losing business from these counterfeitors is not enough, now I need
to lower the price? MSRP isn't something I pulled out of my cat's behind. It's set that way for
reasons. And certainly the loss from counterfeits was not calulated into it.

To me, it seems like some modelers look at this issue as if it would not have any impact on them.
But soon or later, the price of genuine figures will go up due to rising cost of materials and overheads.
And this time, the loss from counterfeits WILL be calulated into it. So ultimately, the money goes to
the counterfeitors comes out of your pocket. So let's fight these counterfeitors in any way we can.

Just my 2 cents

Taesung

NebLWeffah
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:12 AM UTC
The simplest solution is to not buy them, period! Unfortunatley, as Faust and others have stated, not everyone knows the market, esecially the new people and the uninitiated who might no know good from bad. That's a problem. The experienced folks won't buy them (at least I hope so...) and the less experienced aren't necessarily knowledgable enought to know they are being taken in, are funding an illegal trade, and are unkowingly encouraging piracy. The ONLY way to stop this is to take away the market by NOT buying them.

What we can do here and on forums like this on other boards around the world is to spread the word, provide fact-based information, and help the unwary in knowing what to look for. Grumpy Dave said it best...if it sounds to good to be true, then it probably is. Watch out for freakishly low prices, look to the quality of castings, look for a manufacturers label or engraving of some kind, look for an original box (not always true, I know) but above all, avoid the temptation to buy something from what your gut is probably telling you is an unscrupulous seller. Let's make a list or a guide of what to watch out for and educate our own members who will spread the word to other forums.

My 2 cents worth...... (.0214 US hahahaha)



Bob
FAUST
#130
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 10:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

In my humble opinion, anybody claims that he had bought a counterfeit figure on
eBay "unknowingly" is B.S.ing and testing the intellectual level of Armorama members.


Yoh mister Teasung
Ok let me clear something up here I really don't like to be called for bull sh1tting by no one... not even when the person in question is a really good sculptor... Or that he thinks is god... or prime minister or whatever. I think you pretty much assume I bought a figure on Ebay from China... I have never bought stuff from china I never been to china... nor am I planning to go to china in the near future.
Nope I bought the figure at an event in Belgium. And the price was normal and the packaging was convincing enough. I have seen really worse sorts of packaging from resin figure manufacturers. Next to the fact that I never saw the figure I did not expect that it was a copy.
I'm more a vehicle builder then a figure painter and I can't sculpt. I want a figure or several that looks cool on the vehicle I built. And yes probably you know every figure on the market... ever produced and probably you know pretty much all the sculptors this world is rich at the moment. But I do not. Even though I'm building for some years now every now and then I find companies I had never heard of. This was the same with the figure I bought. I don't consider myself a beginner. And I know a lot that is on the market. But not everything. And with that I really don't think I'm the only one... So before you start yelling and yapping around about people buying stuff without knowing it was a copy... Better take a bit longer to think that certain people might not know everything.
I can understand that you are pissed off when you see your stuff being recast and being sold on Ebay. I would be too when I see it. And that I didn't know when I bought the figure that it was a copy... I felt pretty ripped off when I found out it was a figure from Yosci. But of course if you find a rack full of figures you have never seen before with all convincing enough packages for a normale price (for resin figures) alarmbells should really be ringing.

With "friendly" greetz

Robert Blokker
 _GOTOTOP