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Conterfeit figures Armorama member
kiwibelg
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Oost-Vlaanderen, Belgium
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 07:30 AM UTC
Hi Jim,
I have sent a good month or so ago a PM to you regarding counterfeit copies of Verlinden figures being sold on Ebay by an Armorama member.
I did not get a response and today i stumbled across the same copied figures.
The seller sends these figures in a box with photocopied box art labelled with "CaoMao".
Maybe you would like to take a look yourself at the following, as i know how strongly you and all of us feel about people ripping off the industry.
Below is a link to a members "Ebay" account, please look closely at the figure in the picture:

Ebay figure

And the following post of the member from here with his dio entitled "After the War"
I hope that you will look into this mate.
Regards,
Shay
Epi
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 10:20 AM UTC
Shay,
I cant remember if it was Timelines or ML, but that guy is getting taken care of. He had conterfited some of Alpines figures and the owner confronted him by bidding on the item and winning and not paying and leaving a bad feedback. So, alot of the guys are gonna do that or want to that to get this person to stop doing what he is doing.
sgtreef
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 12:56 PM UTC
But as he lives in China "Land of No Copyright"

What can you really do?

BTW he is a pretty good dio builder tho.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 02:03 PM UTC
Shay,
If someone tries to sell proven counterfeit items on Armorama then we will take some action. But what he is doing on eBay is for them to investigate and take action on.

Thanks,
Jim
kiwibelg
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 05:54 AM UTC
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the reply and for looking into things.
Cheers,Shay
matt
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 06:04 AM UTC
From the dude's feeback......

Resin KIT - 1/35 WW2 Stands Tankman (#120178031376) US $3.99 View Item

Illegal copy (counterfeit) of Alpine Miniatures' figure #35033:
I will NOT pay!
taesungharmms5edj ( 49) Nov-01-07 11:14

goldenpony
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 07:57 AM UTC

The sad thing is Ebay will do next to nothing about it. Unless the company being counter fitted has a big enough lawyer to scare them. Plus he is a power seller, so they will “protect” him because he makes them money. I have had problems with two sellers recently, both power sellers.

It is bad news when somebody does this and people are powerless to stop them. The best thing to do is have the owners of the company contact Ebay and let them try to handle it. I know if I contact them about it I will be ignored, as would everyone else.

matt
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 08:46 AM UTC
All we could do is the same thing Taesung did................. But it could look bad on all of us as well........
alanmac
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:46 AM UTC
I do think it's Ebay responsibility to sort this character out.

But at the same time I'm also pretty sure that if it was found that this person was also a member of Timelines or planetFigure he'd be banned from these sites.

It's a shame because I'd seen his work here and thought it very good, obviously a very talented and skilled model maker.

Now the connection has been made clear to me I've got no time for the guy.

Shame he does not have respect for others, equally talented in sculpting the figures he remoulds and sells on.

Now knowing that this is the same person and continuing to show his work and allowing him to remain a member of this "community" could be seen by many as condoning this behaviour, which of course you do not.

Whilst he continues to trade in this way he should not be welcome in any community that values original skill and craftsmanship.

Alan

P.S. The link by the way shows a ripped off Verlinden figure,usually sold with an old lady as a set. He also has a ripped off MK35 figure on offer, and some Kirin stuff.

AndersHeintz
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 12:04 PM UTC
As a new company this is something we have to look at very closely. Every counterfitted figure hurts us, and Taesung and Alpine is in the exact same boat, although he has been hit worse then we have so far.

I agree with Alan, if this dufus was a member over at Timelines (where Im a moderator) he would more then likely be kicked and banned asap.

All he is doing is harming this hobby by stealing others hard work, and frankly this scumbag doesnt deserve to be a member of a great community like Armorama. He should be hit in every way possible, the way that Taesung handled it is one way, and another way is to exclude him from public forums such as this. He will still sell his stolen goods but he will atleast get the picture that the community will not tolerate this sort of behaviour.
Henk
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 04:35 PM UTC
Now, if people wouldn't buy these counterfit figures etc in the first place, than the problem would not be as big as it is.
Most of these figures are pretty well known. Most are sold "no more box.." (I wonder why... ) Most, if looked at the picture a little closer, are of very poor quality.

I blame those buying them (and if you look at the feedback, the customers are very happy, indicating that they either know, and condone the practise, or they are so stupid that they don't know) , knowingly and willingly, and thus encouraging this practise.

staff_Jim
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 05:05 PM UTC
Anders,
I am curious. If I were to open an account on eBay using your username and sold a slew of copies... you would be okay with all your Internet accounts being banned?

Jim
spooky6
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Sri Lanka
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 05:29 PM UTC
Jim, are you saying that there's no proof that the guy on ebay and the Armorama member are the same person?
mondo
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 06:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Now, if people wouldn't buy these counterfit figures etc in the first place, than the problem would not be as big as it is.
Most of these figures are pretty well known. Most are sold "no more box.." (I wonder why... ) Most, if looked at the picture a little closer, are of very poor quality.

I blame those buying them (and if you look at the feedback, the customers are very happy, indicating that they either know, and condone the practise, or they are so stupid that they don't know) , knowingly and willingly, and thus encouraging this practise.





I know the level of talent and hardwork (qaulity as well) to come up with each of these figures. Resin and white metal particularly. I have tried to make my own several times and cannot YET reach the level of these commercial manufacturers. So still end up buying my 1/35 resin from makers such as Verlinded or Warriors, only because the poses are kinda unique and befitting the scene. But I cannot help comparing my 4 figures set of DML to my $12 a piece resin - moneywise. There are not much to compare with when the figure scales grow larger and in later eras. So now instead, I buy 1/35 & 120mm heads to add a level of uniqueness to my builds.

Those counterfeiters don't have the added burden of overhead for sculptors/artisans. But what if the manufacturers could lower their price a notch? Then they might attract more first time buyers and entice old time buyers like me even more. Then some of those who might be thinking of buying knock-offs would say, "the original is just 2-3 bucks more than this knock-off - I'd rather go with my conscience". Something like that.

That's why I'm put off from buying resin figures unless I really need them.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 08:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Jim, are you saying that there's no proof that the guy on ebay and the Armorama member are the same person?



I am not saying that no. But neither has there been any "proof" provided to show he is. DO I think it's likely he is one and the same person? Yes.. but it's just circumstantial evidence (he has shown projects using the same figures, he uses the name purported to be on the box, etc). The long and short of it is I am not the Internet police nor do I think that's the role you want me getting into. Where does it stop? Do I ban people for other alleged illegal activities? Do I ban for alleged anything? Do I ban everyone who has a bad eBay or other trade? Slippery slope....

Jim
grayghost666
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Jim, are you saying that there's no proof that the guy on ebay and the Armorama member are the same person?



I am not saying that no. But neither has there been any "proof" provided to show he is. DO I think it's likely he is one and the same person? Yes.. but it's just circumstantial evidence (he has shown projects using the same figures, he uses the name purported to be on the box, etc). The long and short of it is I am not the Internet police nor do I think that's the role you want me getting into. Where does it stop? Do I ban people for other alleged illegal activities? Do I ban for alleged anything? Do I ban everyone who has a bad eBay or other trade? Slippery slope....

Jim


hello Jim,
if i may put in my 2 cents.ihave looked a the links and read the posts.i agree with you,you are not the internet police,you run a hobby/model site that is set up for showing your builds,ask questions and give advice.if the person in question is proven to be ripping off others then you might have to do some thing about it.but you have only so much power to do anything.the best way to get the point across to that person or any one else is not to buy from him.remember we have the power to stop this type of conterfieting by using our money to buy from the artist who made and is selling it.
this response is mine only and does not reflect on Jim or the staff or Kitmaker Network.
Cheers,
Bruce
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Most of these figures are pretty well known. Most are sold "no more box.." (I wonder why... ) Most, if looked at the picture a little closer, are of very poor quality.

I blame those buying them (and if you look at the feedback, the customers are very happy, indicating that they either know, and condone the practice, or they are so stupid that they don't know) , knowingly and willingly, and thus encouraging this practice.




I look at this situation in a very simple manner.

If a deal is too good to be true, than most likely it is.
In my area, as the gift giving season approaches, everywhere I go I can get great deals on just about anything from Ipods to HDTV, usually sold from the back of a van, in a parking lot at the local malls, dinners etc. I can do one of the following things:
1. Jump on the deal, and buy stolen property. Possibly getting caught and charge with possession of stolen property.
2. Pass it by, and pretend than nothing is going on.
3. Pass it by and report it to the proper authorities, and let them handle it. Usually Mall security or the Dinners owner brings about the desired results. As neither one wants to be a part of it. Bad for business you know!

I believe in cases of selling Counterfeit or Pirated Anything to be a practice I do not wish to participate in. For myself it's just a simple matter of personal integrity and dignity. Yet millions are more than willing to jump on the "Great Deal Band Wagon" knowing fully that THEY are the cause of the problem. No customers- no selling, again pretty simple concept.

Now the question of banning a member for doing something on EBay?
I'd rather see him face the questions and consequences for his action on the site by fellow members, than simply sending him off to some other site incognito. He comes from a culture where there is no such thing as Copyright Laws, not to mention tainted pet foods, lead paint on toys, and tainted food products. Perhaps this culture has no integrity or dignity also? He's the only one that can truly answer that question.
My personal feelings and beliefs prevent me from participating in buying and selling stolen property, any stolen property. Unfortunately, the entire world does not share in that belief. Does it really matter if it's a stolen copied pirated figure, a DVD, Music CD or a stolen Ipod?
Again the ball is really in the mind and conscience of the buyers. Remember the old saying- BUYERS BEWARE- it doesn't say- Seller beware- so it really is up to the buyers if they want to support someone selling pirated figures, DVD's, Music CDs or any other stolen products.
spooky6
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The long and short of it is I am not the Internet police nor do I think that's the role you want me getting into. Where does it stop? Do I ban people for other alleged illegal activities? Do I ban for alleged anything? Do I ban everyone who has a bad eBay or other trade? Slippery slope....



Jim, if this guy's crime were rape or murder or whatever, I would tend to agree with you, but since his area of expertise is our hobby, and the people he's ripping off are modellers and model manufacturers, I don't think a modelling site should allow him to be a member. He is directly harming our hobby and the industry that supports it, he is stealing from the magnificient sculptors who we admire and praise so much. This isn't just a case of doing something on another site. Kitmaker has been pretty outspoken against counterfeiting, so should you then be saying "Hey, you're doing something very bad, but you know, it's still OK for you to come hang with the gang as long as you don't do it in the clubhouse"? Just my opinion.


Quoted Text

Perhaps this culture has no integrity or dignity also?



I think that's uncalled for, Dave. I'm sure you wouldn't like us Asians to look at Americans according to the standards of say Michael Moore or Ted Bundy, would you? Let's just keep this to the individual concerned and not try to insult his country or his culture. Now that would, indeed, be a slippery slope...
jimbrae
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Again the ball is really in the mind and conscience of the buyers. Remember the old saying- BUYERS BEWARE- it doesn't say- Seller beware- so it really is up to the buyers if they want to support someone selling pirated figures, DVD's, Music CDs or any other stolen products.



Absolutely. If people are so half-witted as to buy what are obviously knock-offs and, at the same time, E-Bore ISN'T prepared to do anything about, then can someone explain exactly what Kitmaker Network/Armorama is supposed to do?

If he's BLATANTLY using the Buy, Sell and Trade forum on this network to sell his rip-offs, then that's one thing. I would say, in this case, a ban is appropriate.

We have close to 30,000 registered users on this Network. Do we then start policing the private activities of ALL members? Thin end of a pretty extreme wedge in my opinion...

Also, before I get accused of condoning the activities of characters like this, let me express my absolute condemnation of this. I hate these characters. I hate the slimebags that we get here who sidle into bars with sports bags full of rip-off DVDs and CDs. I also reserve an absolute loathing for the lowlifes who BUY them. I don't give a damn if it's a Hollywood movie or a German Tanker in resin - it's wrong, it's illegal and it's killing the smaller manufacturers.

At the end of the day, they wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the halfwits who 'love' a bargain.

So, taking it to extremes, do we ban the copiers AND their customers? No, it isn't practical...
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:39 PM UTC
Dave I know many many Asians with integrity and dignity, it's wasn't aimed at any of them, as I'm sure you and I share the same feelings on this matter. But the remark was aimed at the two people doing the deal. Be it buyer or seller. Lack of integrity and dignity crosses all nationalities and cultures. I'd bet my plastic teeth that not all his customers are Asian. Again it's a question that ONLY HE and HIS CUSTOMERS need to answer and can answer.

And again I ask, would you and anybody else prefer him to go to some other site, with a new name, incognito?
Or perhaps an open honest discussion of it by members with integrity and dignity as to the rather questionable merits will allow him to see, and learn that it is not only illegal, but unwelcome, not only here but at other sites as well, especially among those with integrity and dignity.
spooky6
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 10:53 PM UTC
Roger, Dave.

I don't know who the customers are or where they come from, but I wouldn't blame 'em too much. What drives the counterfeit industry in Asia is the fact that the average person can't really afford the originals, be it a 120mm Verlinden resin fig (which costs about two weeks salary for the average Sri Lankan) or a Gucci handbag (don't even ask me how much). The counterfeiters aren't really taking business away from the real manufacturers (not much anyway) because no one can afford originals in the first place. The only way to stop it, is to stop the sellers. It's like narcotics -- you don't prosecute the buyers like you do the sellers.

But anyway. If we hate the practice so much, why are we allowing a practitioner to be part of this site? If he goes incognito to another site, there's nothing you can do, but you can do something about what happens on this site. It's like criminals anywhere, you nail 'em on your patch, and leave other people to nail 'em elsewhere. Debate about the subject is all well and good, but I had a look at that thread of his, and he doesn't speak much English, so I doubt he'll be following this with baited breath.
sgtreef
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:21 PM UTC
Well most of the Model companies we buy from are Asian and we know they all "borrow" from each other "Tamiya=Academy"
Are you saying that you won't buy another Academy kit cause they Copied a Tamiya Kit.
They do it so maybe he figures if they can so can I. no pun intended
My 2 cents which can't even buy 100,000th of a gallon of Gas.
docdios
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:25 PM UTC
Dave

as the problem currently stands, we have no absolute proof these are the same people. Prove to me beyond resonable doubt the guy on EBAY and the guy who posts here are the same.

We just cannot ban a member of this community with out some solid proof they are one and the same.

As has been said if he was openly selling on this site, we could do some thing about it, but as it is on EBAY it is outside are control.

If we went about banning people for the hell of it on the assumtion of guilt, the community would be very small, very quickly.

Any body caught selling Illegal copies of Manufactures work on the kitmaker will be banned.

cheers

Keith Forsyth
sgtreef
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:31 PM UTC
Well said .
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 11:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And again I ask, would you and anybody else prefer him to go to some other site, with a new name, incognito?
Or perhaps an open honest discussion of it by members with integrity and dignity as to the rather questionable merits will allow him to see, and learn that it is not only illegal, but unwelcome, not only here but at other sites as well, especially among those with integrity and dignity.







Quoted Text

But anyway. If we hate the practice so much, why are we allowing a practitioner to be part of this site? If he goes incognito to another site, there's nothing you can do, but you can do something about what happens on this site. It's like criminals anywhere, you nail 'em on your patch, and leave other people to nail 'em elsewhere. Debate about the subject is all well and good, but I had a look at that thread of his, and he doesn't speak much English, so I doubt he'll be following this with baited breath.



Perhaps so he can see and learn to become the master of HIS OWN integrity and dignity?
He speaks enough English to make an EBAY ad in English doesn't he, or someone who made it for him does and probably translates for him.
Perhaps so his customers can learn to become the masters of their own integrity and dignity, and realize that buying these is just down right wrong, regardless of self justification.
Perhaps it's just a vain hope that maybe even if 1 customer stops buying, then 2 then 3 it will have the desired effect to put these people out of business. If and it's a big IF, the majority of his customers are Asian, than perhaps those with integrity and dignity need to expand and direct and address this growing problem on their native language boards, as we are trying to do it here. That it is a practice that is just not right, and is STEALING, regardless of what ever other name someone wants to give it or call it. Poverty is not a defense for STEALING, by either the seller or the buyer.
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