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Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
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harrier1
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England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:44 AM UTC

Ok, i know that it is i a motor bike but I was wondering if anyone knows what type it is. It is being used by the grenadier guards in 1941 and I thought it would be quite good for the thompson campaign. If anyone knows of any more pictures or information on this setup I would be most grateful. Also if anyone knows of any models of this bike could they let me know. Cheers. Nick
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:47 AM UTC
By the shape of the fuel tank, it looks like an old Triumph to me. Not sure though.
Drader
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Wales, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:02 PM UTC
Looks like a Triumph to me too

http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Directories/Triumph%20Bikes/pages/Triumph%203HW%201942.htm

There is/was a 1/35th one, but you don't want to know the price!

David
Drader
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Posted: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:07 PM UTC
This one

http://www.swash-design.com/gallery/motorcycle/hirano/hirano.html

David
3rdRTR
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 05:05 AM UTC
I'm no expert either, but it looks more like a Matchless to me!
harrier1
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England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, November 08, 2007 - 07:36 AM UTC
Hi guys
looking at those pics im inclined to say it is that triumph.
Drader, do you know where i can get that model in the UK. Cheers. Nick
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, November 09, 2007 - 09:49 AM UTC
Actually I'm pretty sure it's a Norton 16H, as I have a picture taken from the other side in a book on Norton motorcycles. Norton supplied something like 125,000 16Hs to the forces during the war; post war this helped them gear up for peace because they were able to buy back the surplus ones dirt cheap, respray them & get them on the civilian market. The 16H was a 500cc side valve, & was based on a pre-war "Colonial" model (i.e. it had more ground clearance). It was basically a pretty crude device, top whack was not much over 50 (if you were fond of your fillings!). As against that it was incredibly tough, & would take any amount of abuse or bodging to keep it running. Incidentally, I seem to remember this particular machine in the photo was fitted with a 1938 "cows udder" silencer, which had two outlet pipes (don't ask!). Norton also supplied the army with their "Big 4" model, which was a 600cc SV, usually attached to a sidecar. There was sidecar wheel drive from the back wheel, & when these were sold off after the war, the linkage was cut off, as forgetting to disengage the sidecar drive meant the outfit went straight on even with the handlebars turned!
Triumph didn't get a big contract for army bikes like Norton & BSA, because their factory was bombed in the Coventry Blitz, & it took them a while to get set up again at Meriden. All the drawings were lost in the bombing, so had to be redrawn from the finished parts! They were doubly unlucky, because earlier in 1940, before the German Blitzkrieg on France, almost the entire production of a promising new 250 army bike was lost on it's way to France when the cargo ship was torpedoed.
As for models, I don't know of any models of a 16H in any scale or material, but there may be a white metal one out there somewhere.
harrier1
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England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, November 09, 2007 - 10:53 AM UTC
Hi Steve
Thanks very much for your help. Would you be able to post the picture here? I will see if I can find a model, if not I think I have other ideas for the campaign. Nick
NebLWeffah
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Friday, November 09, 2007 - 11:11 AM UTC

I don't know the motorbike but the guy driving it is definitley Steve McQueen!!...

Bob
Hohenstaufen
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 08:42 AM UTC
I've just had a chance to glance @ the book before I came to work again tonight. It is a Norton, but not a 16H. It is in fact an ES2, which is interesting, because this model was never supplied to the army, so it must be an "impressed" civilian vehicle; from the aplomb with which he is riding it, it may even have been his own, it was not unknown for riders to volunteer their services complete with mount! Even by 1941, the Home Forces were still using a lot of ex-civilian vehicles, the purpose built replacements for the equipment lost at Dunkirk normally went overseas to the Middle East for the Desesrt War. The guardsman featured is lucky in his mount, as the ES2 was considered quite a sporting bike in it's day, with a top speed of around 80mph from it's 500cc OHV engine; the more sprightly OHV machines (e.g. the G3 & G3L Matchless machines) were normally "bagged" by officers or NCOs. The ES2 was one down from the true "super sports" Norton singles, the Internationals, which had overhead cam engines, & infinitely better than the plodding 16H. It is in fact a 1938 model, as the "cows udder" silencer mentioned above proves, as it was only fitted for this one year.
I'll try & scan the picture in & post it for you later in the week, though I'm a bit unclear about copyright laws in relation to this.
Incidentally if you look closely, you can see what looks like the formation badge of 3rd ID on the riders shoulder. Interestingly, he isn't wearing the usual "Pantaloons Motorcyclists" (riding breeches), or the tall lace-up riding boots normally issued to despatch riders, MPs or other soldiers whose duties required them to ride motorcycles. He is wearing the early type "pulp helmet", later replaced by a metal domed version, identical to that issued to tank crews.
harrier1
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Posted: Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 08:35 PM UTC
Hi Steve
Thanks very much for all your help. With regards to copyright laws I thnk its alright as I have seen other scans on here (I think).I have also emailed a norton es2 site asking them for info about models. so we shall see. Cheers Nick
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:34 PM UTC

Hope this comes out in a viewable form, I'm a bit rusty.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:45 PM UTC
Hooray! It worked! Now you can clearly see that this is the same bike from the other side. I always think that British motorcycles somehow look better photographed from the "timimg side"; presumably the manufacturers agree, since their adverts usually showed bikes photographed from this side! You can see now why the "cows udder" silencer is so called, a pretty ugly looking fixture in my opinion, you can see why it only lasted a year!
Note that the bike doesn't have any WD numbers on the tank, which would support my view that it was "impressed". It would appear to be in overall khaki green colour.
I think you can just about see the divisional flash on his shoulder. In your unusual left hand side view, it looks as though he has two Good Conduct stripes on his lower left sleeve, but this may be just the light on creases. If he has, he must be a pre-war regular, which would make sense as the caption puts him in 1st Grenadier Guards, a regular battalion.
I'm not sure how he is controlling the speed of the bike, he either has the throttle friction screwed right down, or the throttle has been transferred to the left handlebar, Indian style.
harrier1
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England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 08:17 PM UTC
Hi Steve
Thats a brilliant shot. Thanks very much for your help, still haven't heard back from the website Thanks very much. Nick
tankmodeler
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Monday, November 12, 2007 - 09:19 AM UTC
The Rube Goldberg contraption supporting the Thompson isn't anything I'd want in front of me (and the family jewels) on any bike I'd ride. Imagine coming off with that lot in front of you!

Oh, the horror! The unborne generations!
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