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Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
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why no NATO 3 color for Chally?
junglejim
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 11:38 AM UTC

Hey Nige, there's a difference between a Blog (Web Log) and a Discussion Group! Usually a Blog is done by one person - a diary if you will; their thoughts and opinions, or someone's Build Log (BLog) as it applies to modelling (see...working modelling into this reply ) This site was more of a DG long before the term 'Blog' started being used, I think
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_group

So endeth the lesson
Jim
footsie
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England - North East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 11:52 AM UTC
OK here we go ,point 1, i live in the north east , a long way from London , i suggest you buy a map and look it up , as an ex soldier you can read a map ? point 2 , have i lost a loved one ? no i lost a good friend G/W 2, point 3, i spent over 18 yrs in the military and served in a few war zones i dont remember YOU helping me out at ANY time ! why would i when i have professional soldiers either side of me point 4 , were leopards repainted yes i saw it myself
warlock109
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Utah, United States
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:11 PM UTC
Back on topic. During WW2, there was a lot of experimenting with colors and patterns. Not just on armor. Look at the US and UK navy's, they painted patterns on the sides of their ships to try to change the visual shape of the ship so that being viewed form a U Boat, they would have a hard time determining what type of ship, or who it belonged to, us or them. Off topic a little, I think that if some of us have thin skin and can't take criticism, well we need to get over it. By the way Nige, you're a funny guy. I especially like the "yanks" . I can't think of a good oneto get you back, but, back on topic. (kind of) Speaking of camo, WHAT IS WITH THE RED UNIFORMS? Was that to hide the blood so the ranks wouldn't break and run or what?

P.S. By the way, Tony, I agree with you.
okdoky
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Scotland, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:27 PM UTC
Hey Jim Thanks for the lesson,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I am crap with computer lingo too!!!!!!!!!! Tee hee.

Gary

Aside from who is pulling who's fat out of which fire (not forgetting who's countries slightly corrupted polititions "Farenheight 9/11" and all that put America's, Britain's, Iraq's, etc, etc people into the firing line in the first place) and everybody wishing that the Bushes would get there stupid fingers off the firing button for their own gain,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Did you have any comment to make on the use of camouflage, FoF systems or other measures that would help me in my build of my Landies or DROPS motor. It would be appreciated if you did.

I don't remember watching U tube and seeing much compassion for the enemy when knocking ten lumps of hell out of them. But hey that is the job of a TRUE soldier ain't it. Especially RED NECK Americans,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Hoo Ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

War is for fighting for the right reasons.

Lets hope our basic two tone camo helps us hide from you when you are let loose Gary to vent your anger on a discussion group.

And

I'm not offended, just really, really board with this type of whinning. ( not seen you do anything but whine yet ) As we redneck Americans would say, what's your dog in this fight? Have you lost a loved one? (Nope and long might that be the case) Have you actully served over there and been a so called victim of it? (Already answered that one and glad not to have been). Aparently our UK government is not as nice as yours and is not so keen on making sure that its Saturday and Sunday soldiers, or even its full time ones should get the best of treatment for injuries received in the service of its country.

But am I not right in saying there are a lot of p****** of American Vets too,,,,,,,,National Guard and regular Gary? Vet hospitals getting shut down and all that!

They don't tell you that when they get you to sign on the dotted line. Hope it gets better for the guys still in the forces.

Hoo Ya!

Footsie?

Do you know that three colour camo scheme from the African campaigns.
Removed by original poster on 01/11/08 - 07:40:54 (GMT).
Shermaniac
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:36 PM UTC
My guess is that due to budget constraints and a storekeepers eye the British Army went Eco-Green way before it has become trendy.

In the great scheme of things All of our Armour and B Vehicles do ultimately sport a NATO style 3 tone camoflage, when it matters most, 'in action'.

Earth is generally BROWN, tanks etc are painted Green/Black and with active use all vehicles have applied in a very random and liberal application of Earth/Mud - 3 tone camo.

EU-NATURELLE!!! - and all different too!
okdoky
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:37 PM UTC
Jerry

Funny you should ask about the red uniforms,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I was watching the Queen's (god bless the old dear) Guards documentry a couple of weeks ago and one comment that was made was that red was chosen because some brainy chap decided that red was the hardest colour to define from a distance ,,,,,,and therefor ,,,,,,,,, harder to count the number of troops standing together in a line against you!!!!!!!!!!

After all they were all standing in block shooting!!!!!!!!!!!! I would go with the red blood bit as a real winner though!

Nige
wbill76
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:38 PM UTC
This is a friendly reminder to please keep the personal and political elements off to the side as there are other places for that. The original topic is a valid question to ask about the origins and methods of camo use on vehicles many know and love to model. If we can't keep to that, this thread will have to be locked down.
okdoky
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:43 PM UTC
Hi Bill

Point taken and just got a bit heated But war is hell!! And we all still model it!

Suitably chastised!

Nige
footsie
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England - North East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 12:48 PM UTC
soooooo , i hope we are all still friends ?
okdoky
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 01:06 PM UTC
Hi there

Strange how allies can be friends one day and worst of enemies the next,,,,,,,,,,,then back to best friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is amazing how much army kit is passed around the world and being used by the very people that countries previously considered to have been enemies before. No amount of uniformity of camo colours could account for the very same equipment being in use in oposing sides.

What with international weapons sales and the like I would hate to be 30,000 feet up and trying to figure out which camo scheme I was looking for and depending on an eye in the sky computer not to be fried at the time!!!!!!!

Was there any proof that the Berlin Brigade pattern was actually any use for any where other than in urban warfare? And would you really want to be going through the middle of a city with the amount of hi tech,,,,,,,,or low tech (molitovs) anti tank weapons about, one colour, two, three, or rainbow coloured?

Nige
2CAVTrooper
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 02:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

whats wrong Mr owsley , have you not heard of freedom of speech ? if you care to check some more questions on this site you will find a lot more that go off track, why not complain to them as well, then you can be the armorama off track police. i think its more a case of being offended than going off the subject , you seem to have issues about being offended, so as you said yourself deal with it ! PS just for your interest ,how many friendly fire incidents have involved British forces in Iraq being attacked by us aircraft ? six , how many incidents involving us aircraft in Iraq ? twenty three, these are only the known cases


"Freedom of speech" is irrelevant here because it's a private site, and the owners there of can dictate the limits of speech here hence the Terms of Service or in this site's case Conditions of Use.

Keep in mind that this IS a modeler's website and not something for more political discussions.

I don't mean to do the job of the Mods or Admin or step on their toes but what I said is the truth, and I think Mr. Starkweather, etc would agree with what I said.

2CAVTrooper
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 02:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You have to wonder, don’t you? The three-tone camouflage was introduced to ensure that NATO wasn’t inadvertently helping out The Other Lot. The problem was that that you could tell what you were looking at just by the way it was painted, everyone’s colour schemes being so varied; a universal colour scheme reduced that problem. Even the French – not traditionally great lovers of the NATO structure – adopted it. Yet the UK didn’t. And nor did Italy, I believe, nor Spain, nor Greece; but Switzerland did.

Like most good NATO ideas I expect it was that toxic combination of Not Invented Here and inertia…


From what I remember reading about the adoption of the NATO scheme was to make it harder for the soviets to figure out who they were facing based on how the tanks were painted.

The French scheme isn't really the standard NATO scheme in that they use a different color green and brown.
M-60-A3
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 02:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This is a friendly reminder to please keep the personal and political elements off to the side as there are other places for that. The original topic is a valid question to ask about the origins and methods of camo use on vehicles many know and love to model. If we can't keep to that, this thread will have to be locked down.


Mr. Plunk,
I for one would be happy and appreciative if you would lock down this thread. I think it has out lived it's usefullness.
Joe
okdoky
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 02:54 PM UTC
Hi there

Please remember also that thick skins are for Tanks and those who can appreciate a little bit of good natured humour,,,,,,,,,,what ever side of the pond ,,,,,,,,,or political side you are on!!

We mask political correctness by not discussing the obvious! We mask the obvious by using camouflage. Hope we can still keep a degree of humour going on this thread!!!!!!!!!

I am just watching a documentory that has just stated that Tony Blair has sent the British Army into more actions than any other British Prime Minister since Winston Churchill

It would be interesting to know how many of these actions they kept most vehicles painted two colour.

Nige
Cob
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 03:40 PM UTC
Look at the US and UK navy's, they painted patterns on the sides of their ships to try to change the visual shape of the ship so that being viewed form a U Boat, they would have a hard time determining what type of ship, or who it belonged to, us or them

Actually the idea is to keep them (untersee boots) from getting a firing solution ( range, bearing and speed) by confusing the observer as to angle on the bow. the angled painted shapes were intended to make the ship look like it was going a different direction, false bow wakes masked true speed and the different colors make it appear larger or smaller which threw off the range estimates. I'm not sure my explanation makes sense-Target motion analysis is fairly complex. The type of ship and therefore it;s nationality is not easy to mask. Subs have plenty of data on warships and merchants making recognition fairly simple.
Not trying to take an armor thread off topic ... just trying to clarify how cammo can be used.
v/r,
Cob





okdoky
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 03:51 PM UTC
I remember watching a great documentory about the Camouflage Development and Training Centre

From Wikipedia cause I could not remember the magician's name

Early staff included artists from the Industrial Camouflage Research Unit such as Roland Penrose and Frederick Gore, and the stage magician Jasper Maskelyne (later famous for his camouflage work in the North African campaign).

He did some great stuff with very basic materials.

Nige
tkdfighter
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 03:53 PM UTC
Amazing what a little bit of British humour can to. What an uproar. As far as ForF systems go I think they are goig to result in more incidents as soldiers start to rely on the technoligy{sp} instead of thinking for themselves or using some common sense
okdoky
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 04:15 PM UTC
Thanks Alan for some common sense from across the pond!,,,,,,,,, And up a bit!!!!!

How are Canada's claims to its northern teritorial waters going these days? I think you might need to start new camo colours for your warships!!!!!!!!!

Allies one day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, enemies the next and all that!!!!!!

For the life of me I have no idea what the current Canadian camo colours are for vehicles!!

You are right about For F systems though and reliance on tech!!!!!!!!!!!!! Insurgents depend very much on low tech for obvious reasons and seem to do very well at kicking asses of very high tech invaders!!

Nige
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 - 07:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

WHAT IS WITH THE RED UNIFORMS? Was that to hide the blood so the ranks wouldn't break and run or what?


Red uniforms were used because it is supposed to make counting the enemy ranks very hard. On a plus note it makes it damn hard to hide yourself.
warlock109
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 04:14 AM UTC
[
Red uniforms were used because it is supposed to make counting the enemy ranks very hard. On a plus note it makes it damn hard to hide yourself.[/quote]


Thanks for the info (you too Nige), I'm more of a wear buck skin and hide behind the trees kind of guy, but at least they knew who was on who's side. That period of history is really not my nitch. I build "modern armor" (post WW2). My armor friends are trying to corrupt me though. I've got a couple of German Tigers, and Flak guns. I open up the boxes every once in a while, fondle the parts, and put the lids back on. One of these days I' ll build them (maybe). Speaking of camo, now there were some interesting schemes that were used.
warlock109
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 04:25 AM UTC
[
"Freedom of speech" is irrelevant here because it's a private site, and the owners there of can dictate the limits of speech here hence the Terms of Service or in this site's case Conditions of Use.

Your right. Freedom of speech dosen't apply here. It only applies to the governments (national or local) not interfearing with speach. As private citizens, we have the right to listen to or not listen to (read or not read) whatever we want.
sapper159
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 05:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Joe's question asked if Challenger 2 was ever in Nato 3-color scheme and if not why not. Many of the replies note that the Green and Black scheme was better suited for England. I don't think that answers the question of why not. Were Challengers operating with Nato on the continent in Green/Black or 3-color NATO. What was suitable for Englands forests may not have been sutable for NW Europe. I personally don't think the colors would make much difference to a ground attack pilot, some type of IFF or the shape or outline would seem to be a better way to tell the "good guys" from the rest.
v/r,
Cob

If you read both my previous replies you will note that at no point do I mention camouflage schemes specific to England. The British forces use the green/black scheme in EUROPE, of which England is part, Asia and Central/south America. If you want the colour scheme for BATUS in Canada, it is Sand and green. BATLSK in Kenya had there vehicles painted green or green/black when I was there in '95. When British troops went into Sierra leone the vehicles were painted the standard green/black ( the royal marine 'boats' are painted with a brown aswell as g/b but I know of no other units useing brown). When gulf war 1 happened some units (mainly support units) were unable to get there vehicles painted sand in time so some vehicles went to war in g/b.
As for aircraft spotting ground vehicles, this mainly caused by the infra red signature showing up on increasingly sophisticated spotting equipment. British vehicle crews do have heavy thermal reducing 'tarpaulins' that they drape over their vehicles when they are static, but they are by no means foolproof, also the cam nets are IRR treated. Vehicles on the move are a whole different ball game, vehicle recognition by the mk1 eyeball is the main identification tool although it can also be augmented by certain aircraft have recognition software to aid the aircrews. Camouflage schemes aren't designed for moving vehicls but for static ones!!
Finally as for Chally's being painted colours other than green and black in The European Theatre of Operations it would be highly unlikely as the Regs state that green and black are the colours for British Army vehicles, that is not to say that some Cavalry hurray henry didn't experiment at some time just to see what it would look like!!!
Sudzonic
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 06:51 AM UTC
I saw a documntary on the discovery channel reasantly and there was a chally 2 painted in a sort of merdec sceam/? looked a bit odd to see it like that.

I know this prob a really silly qestion but is denmark part of NATO? there vehicls are painted in a simmeller sceam to ours?? There is a pic of a danish leo in my profile if you want a look see.
18Bravo
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 08:33 AM UTC
Well, to finally answer one of the questions posed by Jon #1-Tamiya field Gray is a great match for the green now being used. I've used it with great success.

Jon#2-Personally, I did not find the Berlin Brigade urban scheme useless. I was there in the early 80's, and while it did not hide a Chieftain, you still had to look twice sometimes and say "what the heck is that?" most noticeably if you were looking at an oblique or frontal angle.
The scheme actually did confuse the eye enough to nearly hide some of the smaller vehicles, especially at a distance. The only real problem was the West Berlin was 50% parks and forests, most of which were in the British sector.

And as for the British use of red uniforms:
Don't read further if you offend easily-

Still there huh?
The British chose the color because it was harder for the enemy to tell if they had struck a British soldier, but more importantly, the soldiers standing in ranks would not be frightened by the blood of their brothers to the left and right because it was hidden by the red-
That's when the French decided to go to brown trousers.
 _GOTOTOP