Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
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why no NATO 3 color for Chally?
Cob
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 09:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Joe's question asked if Challenger 2 was ever in Nato 3-color scheme and if not why not. Many of the replies note that the Green and Black scheme was better suited for England. I don't think that answers the question of why not. Were Challengers operating with Nato on the continent in Green/Black or 3-color NATO. What was suitable for Englands forests may not have been sutable for NW Europe. I personally don't think the colors would make much difference to a ground attack pilot, some type of IFF or the shape or outline would seem to be a better way to tell the "good guys" from the rest.
v/r,
Cob

If you read both my previous replies you will note that at no point do I mention camouflage schemes specific to England. The British forces use the green/black scheme in EUROPE, of which England is part, Asia and Central/south America. If you want the colour scheme for BATUS in Canada, it is Sand and green. BATLSK in Kenya had there vehicles painted green or green/black when I was there in '95. When British troops went into Sierra leone the vehicles were painted the standard green/black ( the royal marine 'boats' are painted with a brown aswell as g/b but I know of no other units useing brown). When gulf war 1 happened some units (mainly support units) were unable to get there vehicles painted sand in time so some vehicles went to war in g/b.
As for aircraft spotting ground vehicles, this mainly caused by the infra red signature showing up on increasingly sophisticated spotting equipment. British vehicle crews do have heavy thermal reducing 'tarpaulins' that they drape over their vehicles when they are static, but they are by no means foolproof, also the cam nets are IRR treated. Vehicles on the move are a whole different ball game, vehicle recognition by the mk1 eyeball is the main identification tool although it can also be augmented by certain aircraft have recognition software to aid the aircrews. Camouflage schemes aren't designed for moving vehicls but for static ones!!
Finally as for Chally's being painted colours other than green and black in The European Theatre of Operations it would be highly unlikely as the Regs state that green and black are the colours for British Army vehicles, that is not to say that some Cavalry hurray henry didn't experiment at some time just to see what it would look like!!!



Thanks for the info Jon. I said many replies and looking back only one person (Tony) specifically mentioned England. Thanks for clearing that up. THe origonal question about NATO 3-color scheme got me thinking and other than the USA, Germany and France (non-NATO member) I think only Holland uses those colors. Any others?
warlock109
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 09:09 AM UTC
[
Still there huh?
The British chose the color because it was harder for the enemy to tell if they had struck a British soldier, but more importantly, the soldiers standing in ranks would not be frightened by the blood of their brothers to the left and right because it was hidden by the red-
That's when the French decided to go to brown trousers. [/quote]


AHAHAHAH I like it !!!!!! I better not say anymore !!!!!
Removed by original poster on 01/12/08 - 05:11:47 (GMT).
tsreid
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 10:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks Alan for some common sense from across the pond!,,,,,,,,, And up a bit!!!!!

How are Canada's claims to its northern teritorial waters going these days? I think you might need to start new camo colours for your warships!!!!!!!!!

Allies one day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, enemies the next and all that!!!!!!

For the life of me I have no idea what the current Canadian camo colours are for vehicles!!

You are right about For F systems though and reliance on tech!!!!!!!!!!!!! Insurgents depend very much on low tech for obvious reasons and seem to do very well at kicking asses of very high tech invaders!!

Nige



Canada currently uses a one tone NATO/dark green on vehicles like the LAV III, Leopard C2 and TLAV. The new Leopard 2s have been left in the 3 tone NATO scheme. The only other exception to this rule that I can think of is the RG-31 patrol vehicle. This comes factory painted in a sand/tan colour.
maximus8425
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 11:01 AM UTC
Just to echo 18bravo I was in Berlin in the late eighties and the urban camouflage did indeed work, but remember it wasn't designed to completely hide the vehicle but to give you those few extra seconds while someone decided whether you were a target or not and if it was worth firing. But it is completely pump when put up against the wrong background such as this

But brilliant when put up against this


Max
okdoky
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 11:31 AM UTC
I would love to see some of the German insurance claims against the UK Army.

Vell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I vas driiveeng along zee strasse and oot froom zee noveer cumz zees beeg ******** panzer!!!! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Oh hov I pooped migna liederhozen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tee hee!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing to do with the fact that zee panzer vas sitting steel atzee junction and zee big BMW vas foot to zee floren!

I wish they would let our Army take their tanks out to play on the roads up here in Scotland. Used to see more when ABRO Stirling used to maintain some.

Nige


okdoky
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 11:40 AM UTC
Signing out that tank must have been fun too!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Hey boss,,,,,,,,,,,I'm goin doon the toon for some fags and some beers!!!!!!!!!! I'll nae be long and I promise tae top the fuel up tae where it was at when I got it!!!!!!! "

What a bird magnet too!!!!!!!!!!

What yoa got for a motor? Merc,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Beemer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Audi?????????? Naaaaaaaaa 40 tae 50 tonnes of car crushing, gas guzzling steel. And don't try to cut me up at the lights,,,,,,,,,,, you won't outrun the 105 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nige
footsie
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 12:45 PM UTC
HI guys , if i can elaborate a bit more on my answer i first gave maybe i can word it a bit better, IF WW3 had kicked off i think we can all agree that all we could was to hold the red hordes for as long as we all could, yes? with the allies being pushed back to maybe France, sounds familiar eh! British forces would then leave to go back to the UK, the UK being the place where reinforcements would be sent , IF, things went wrong and a counter attack was needed. sooooo ! UK vehicles were possibly expected to fight on their own ground, if that was to be so then you pick the camo most suited for the ground you are about to fight on, and why would British forces go back to the UK ? because we know the area better than anyone else , it has nothing to do with being different or difficult with NATO, in fact NATO ordered UK Armour to use a camo most suited to its own terrain, NATO understood that we COULD! possibly be in for a long hard fight ,or at worst a short brief one , NATO had many plans for many different scenario's and this ,WAS, only one plan , i know the cold war is over , hmmmmm , but why change a good idea , i also phoned the imperial war museum to ask why we wore red uniforms, ( although some of us already knew ) it was to hide the number of men in massed ranks, when i asked was it to hide the blood she stated that i had been misinformed , i know some people are not going to believe this post but thats the facts . PS Britain is not part of Europe , how do i know ? because I'm British and we have not voted on it. oh , one more thing when we were on exercise in Europe we had a guy who carried a clip board and a , HUGE , pile of blank cheques with him, i think almost all the farmers in Germany had a new barn or new fence courtesy of the british army .
warlock109
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 12:54 PM UTC
You are right about For F systems though and reliance on tech!!!!!!!!!!!!! Insurgents depend very much on low tech for obvious reasons and seem to do very well at kicking asses of very high tech invaders!!

Nige [/quote]

As far as For F goes. They have to come up with something that works!! The Middle East is not going to be a peaceful place anytime soon (probably not in my lifetime). Look at this as an example. The Us Army has sand colored M1's made by G.D. Land Systems. The Saudi Army has sand colored M1's made by G. D. Land Systems. The Egyptian Army has sand colored M1's made by G. D. Land systems. Any bets that the Iraqi Army will have sand colored M1's made by G. D. Land Systems? Just because were friendly with each other now. We use to fe friendly with Iran too. (think F14 Tomcats) I can see it now "Target, Tank, M1. Wait a minute, is that one of ours or theirs?" BOOM! It's crazy!!
okdoky
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 01:11 PM UTC
I spilt a wee bit diesel in the woods of Germany (OK a big bit) from an UBRE but you would have thought it was thon oil tanker ship that sank off Canada the way everyone was going on about it. The Germans counting every little oily spot on the ground!

That Berlin Chally paint scheme would be a right bugger to get all the squares masked off in the right order and keep square.

What about all those HUMMVEEs that are being sold around the world. Not much between the camo schemes either to distinguish ForF. And then every grunt goes and changes the profile of it "Gun Truck" style that you would not know whos army it was from.

I think some of those guys been watching too much of the "A" TEAM and Scrapheap Challange!

Nige
okdoky
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 01:23 PM UTC
Do you think me suggesting that the Yanks paint all their M1s a pretty shade of gloss pink to distinguish theirs from the rest in the middle east would cause more of an uproar on this group?

Just like Top Gear did on their drive through the Bible belt of America with "man love" painted over the side of one of their cars.

After all us British must be in touch with our feminine side and be ok with that. SAS jeeps looked ok!

Tee hee

Nige
tkdfighter
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 03:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Do you think me suggesting that the Yanks paint all their M1s a pretty shade of gloss pink to distinguish theirs from the rest in the middle east would cause more of an uproar on this group?

Just like Top Gear did on their drive through the Bible belt of America with "man love" painted over the side of one of their cars.

After all us British must be in touch with our feminine side and be ok with that. SAS jeeps looked ok!

Tee hee

Nige



Shall we mention the Kilts or are somethings better left unsaid
cheers Allan
footsie
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 03:47 PM UTC
so if the proud scots dont wear any under garments beneath the kilt what color camo do they paint their tackle ? sorry nige i couldnt resist it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
okdoky
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Posted: Friday, January 11, 2008 - 11:37 PM UTC
Blue of course,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and I have the photos to prove it Tee hee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For my stag do the guys at my work poured a full jar of plumbers dye down my trousers!,,,,,,,,,,,,everything was blue,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,including the air when I got home and walked over our white carpet,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

She who was about to become SWMBO tore me a new A**. The vax was out for months after, on the carpets.

Blue is the famous warpaint camo colour of us SCOTS!!!!! Remember Braveheart!

Nige
markm
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Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 02:55 AM UTC
Can this thread go any further off track
okdoky
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Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:39 AM UTC
Well Mark

If you look back camoufladge has still been the main tread all the way through,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so I think we are still on track!

Mind you I still don't have any ideas yet for the additions to my DROPS or Landies for Gulf War 1 FoF recognition measures used by the Brits.

Any background to that would be good as well as Brit vehicles still in Black-Green camo would be appreciated!

Go with the flow Mark and enjoy!

Nige
warlock109
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Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 06:26 AM UTC
i also phoned the imperial war museum to ask why we wore red uniforms, ( although some of us already knew ) it was to hide the number of men in massed ranks, when i asked was it to hide the blood she stated that i had been misinformed ,

Sorry Tony, I The blood comment wasn't serious. (but it does kind of make sense)I was just trying to make a small dig at Nige. Maybe I shuld have said somthing about the noise that Bagpipes make instead.
okdoky
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Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 08:14 AM UTC
Now that is just purely to scare the hell out of the enemy,,,,,,,,,,,,,Have you ever seen a kilted Scot dance? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Scary image Tee Hee,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Camoufladged tackle or not!!!!!!!!!!!

Nige

tkdfighter
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Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 01:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Can this thread go any further off track


This thread had a track
Murdo
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Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 02:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Can this thread go any further off track


This thread had a track



Yeah, began with something about Cam.

Now discussing the "noise" "bagpipes" make. This incites "Scots" to attack!

Bagpipes are officially classed as an "Instrument of War".
footsie
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Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 02:33 PM UTC
this has got to be the , MOST , interesting if crazy thread i have , EVER , had the pleasure to read. i suppose the original question was answered in a roundabout sort of way , i think ?. but as for going off track i think we are well and truly , LOST , with no chance of , EVER , getting back ! thank god some of you guys have a sense of humor. forwards unto madness ,
warlock109
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Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 06:44 AM UTC
Ya, it was fun wasn't it. We should thank the bosses for putting up with us.
Sudzonic
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Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 07:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Can this thread go any further off track


This thread had a track



Yeah, began with something about Cam.

Now discussing the "noise" "bagpipes" make. This incites "Scots" to attack!

Bagpipes are officially classed as an "Instrument of War".



I remember being piped into into attacks more than a few times!! we were about to assault a fiba village(fighting in build up areas for those who dont know) and th piper was walking up and down the lines and round the village really spurs you on and makes you feel proud to be a jock..
okdoky
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Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 10:47 AM UTC
I love the skirl of the bagpipes. I'm presuming that plenty of the Jocks in foreign lands right now will appreciate hearing the pipes being played well and will remind them of home.

What the English make of it I don't know but knowing most they won't deny that a good piper gets the feet tapping and the heart racing.

Nige

Keef1648
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Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 01:44 PM UTC
Bronze Green was last used in the early to mid 70's in favor of IR reflective and absorbant paint. When viewed through IR sights the black absorbed the light and the dark Green had a medium reflective quality.
This meant the user could not or at least had problems identifying the target.
Due to the production cost of this paint it was felt two colors was equally as effective as three.
The Green and Black has remained the norm throughout the British Army and painting is/was left to the individual crews.
A set or common pattern would soon result in an experienced observer identfying his target...

Keef.