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Armor/AFV: Canadian Armor
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Canadian Leopard C1
sauceman
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 02:01 PM UTC
Well here is my latest project, a Canuck Leo C1. Aquired the MLM C1 late conversion from TrackJam, and I must say the time span between the order and the delivery was just one week.

So far the build has been pretty easy, just replace kit parts with the resin pieces. Some of which are quite thin and fragile (broke the MG mount already )

The conversion set comes with replacement tool boxes for the side hull but for the life of me I cannot tell the difference between them and the kit parts!!?

Have most of the hull completed and will finish the turret this weekend (ya right!)



















As you may be able to tell I'm pretty much relying on the conversion instructions and building it up OOB.

As always comments, critiques, hints, and sarcasm are greatly appreciated!

cheers
sadodd
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Nebraska, United States
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Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 02:18 PM UTC
Rick,

Looks like it is coming along nicely. I have heard that resin pieces can be very delicate to work with. Makes me wonder if they are worth the effort on some things, but that's just me. Looking forward to updates and again very nice so far.
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 04:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Rick,

Looks like it is coming along nicely. I have heard that resin pieces can be very delicate to work with. Makes me wonder if they are worth the effort on some things, but that's just me. Looking forward to updates and again very nice so far.



Once you realize that that resin is not as pliable as injection moulded plastic you learn how to work with it....the details can be extremely well defined and it sands very easily.

Rick,

The obvious thing I see out of place on your build is the cable cover for the driver's wipers and washers......the end against the episcope cover should be flush level with the guard on top of the periscopes.....not raised like you have mounted it.

The driver's periscopes look a bit off too....they should acutally have covers over them....the guard mounts on top of the covers....not right on top of the periscopes. I am not sure from your photos if it is improperly shaped or if it is how you have mounted it.

If you need any questions answered about the late version Leopard C1 just ask me....I commanded them for 5 years.
Recce_Guy
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Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 04:52 PM UTC
Hello Rick,

Looks like another great build. I am just about to start a C1 myself and this helps me out alot.

Refernce your comment about the side tool boxes being different. I think that the MLM ones have the studs on the back of them to make it stand out a little from the hull. You can see what I mean from this picture at Primeportal. If you enlarge the picture you will see there is a gap in between them.

http://data3.primeportal.net/tanks/dan_hay/leopard_c2/images/leopard_c2_012_of_209.jpg

Hope this helps,

Cam
WhiskeySix
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 23, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 10:46 PM UTC
Are you using the Italeri Leo 1A4 for this build?
Florre
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West-Vlaaderen, Belgium
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Posted: Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 11:23 PM UTC
I reckon so. I've just finished building that one, and I'm pretty sure it's the same. Nice kit to build on its own as well. You can find some pics on the forum in the benelux section, if you would like to have a look.

This promises to be an interesting conversion, I like leopards, beautiful tanks.

sauceman
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 02:41 AM UTC
Thanks for the replies

Jason, I wasn't quite sure of the placement for the cable cover, the pieces have a pin on the thin piece and a corresponding hole on the periscope cover so i ASSUMED,.......

The beauty of working in resin is that the pieces are easy to take apart and repair!

Steve, thanks for the comments. And actually I prefer resin in some instances to plastic, especially when I goof things up! (see above). LOL

Cam, I'm a putz, I thought thoses little snibbley's were a flaw and cut them off. Oh well, the beauty of resin,.......it shall be sorted out.

Yes John it's the Italeri/Testors Leo 1A4. And I must say for a 30 year old kit it has really good detail and lots of small detail parts.

cheers
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 04:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jason, I wasn't quite sure of the placement for the cable cover, the pieces have a pin on the thin piece and a corresponding hole on the periscope cover so i ASSUMED,.......



There's lots of great images on Prime Portal of the Leopard C2....the Leopard C2 hull is bascially the same as the Leopard C1 hull with a few additions..........it will save you from having to make changes later on with other details......to each his own.
sauceman
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 05:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Jason, I wasn't quite sure of the placement for the cable cover, the pieces have a pin on the thin piece and a corresponding hole on the periscope cover so i ASSUMED,.......



There's lots of great images on Prime Portal of the Leopard C2....the Leopard C2 hull is bascially the same as the Leopard C1 hull with a few additions..........it will save you from having to make changes later on with other details......to each his own.



Yes I checked Prime Portal out this morning and since they are reletively the same hull, I think the tow cable is a little different, I shall use this as my main reference. Their is also a few pics of some C1's one early and one late that I can use for the turret.

cheers
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 05:16 AM UTC
The tow cables are the same....the mounting position on the hull side is different....they were moved back along the hull when the MEXAS mounts were added.....that is why they criss cross on the hull rear on the C2....that modification was done when the hulls were still with the C1 turret....that was the final "late" version of the Leopard C1.

If you are just building it essentially out of the box and adding the conversion then the tow cables can stay as per the kit instructions.

Good to see you tried to remove the scribed lines on the roadwheels and idler wheels.
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 05:16 AM UTC
The tow cables are the same....the mounting position on the hull side is different....they were moved back along the hull when the MEXAS mounts were added.....that is why they criss cross on the hull rear on the C2....that modification was done when the hulls were still with the C1 turret....that was the final "late" version of the Leopard C1.

If you are just building it essentially out of the box and adding the conversion then the tow cables can stay as per the kit instructions.

Good to see you tried to remove the scribed lines on the roadwheels and idler wheel.
ADNeate
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New Brunswick, Canada
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 06:24 AM UTC
Good luck with your C1, I'm still waiting for some extra parts for mine. I wonder if anyone told JP you can't really build a true late C1 with the MLM C1 Late kit ? It's missing the MEXAS mounts and the rear turret bustle, so technically it's a 'Mid' C1.
sauceman
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Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 06:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Good to see you tried to remove the scribed lines on the roadwheels and idler wheel.



Ya those are a little wierd

I was going to just sand them smooth but I think that will remove too much materiel. I will lightly fill them with thinned putty and give a final sanding.

cheers
sauceman
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 07:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Good luck with your C1, I'm still waiting for some extra parts for mine. I wonder if anyone told JP you can't really build a true late C1 with the MLM C1 Late kit ? It's missing the MEXAS mounts and the rear turret bustle, so technically it's a 'Mid' C1.



MLM do have the turret bustle as a seperate piece, and the mexas mounts should not be too difficult to make, just time consuming. But yes this conversion doesn't represent a true "late" C1.

cheers
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 07:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Good luck with your C1, I'm still waiting for some extra parts for mine. I wonder if anyone told JP you can't really build a true late C1 with the MLM C1 Late kit ? It's missing the MEXAS mounts and the rear turret bustle, so technically it's a 'Mid' C1.



Actually, I think it is the modeller who more importantly needs to do the research when building an accurate version. Conversions give you the basis for a version of a model.....they usually don't provide all the details.....research and references are a must do.

MLM sells the turret bustle so modellers can update the Leopard C1 conversion if they want.

The Leopard C1 went through a variety of updates over the years.....the "early" original version is as per the first MLM conversion.

There was upgrades done in about 1987.....this included the IRS 100 and the larger protective cage being added.

Then in about 1988/1989 the side turret stowage racks were added as well as the protective guard and armoured cover for the dozer and mine plow cables and connections.

The antennas used in Canada and Germany also varied from the standard two piece long style with the US made Antenna Mounting Unit(AMU)....to a short version about 2 feet long with no visible spring....again, research your project.

Tanks in Germany and some in Gagetown also had a Naptha can bracket mounted between the two jerry can brackets on the turret rear.

Then in 1997 the MEXAS armour mounts were added, the tow cables repositioned, and the turret bustle rack added.....the turret bustle rack being mounted meant having to remove the fold down hatch for the compartment used to stow the PZB 200 and IRS 100 because it interfered with the opening of the hatch.

So you tell me......which is "technically" the "mid" and "late" versions? The "early", "mid", and "late" titles were never used on the tanks by the crews or the CF....they were just called the Leopard C1.....it's just something to make it easier to understand for modellers.

OK, school is done.....class dismissed....have a great weekend.
sauceman
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 07:11 AM UTC
Jason you tha 'man

Quick question, on the right side between the saw and the shovel there is a small square piece, is this the exhaust for the crew heater?

cheers
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 07:47 AM UTC
Yup, the cover over the heater exhaust.
PiperDan
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 10:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text


There's lots of great images on Prime Portal of the Leopard C2....



There should be some pictures of the C1 late turret up on Prime Portal in the near future. I sent a bunch off to Don a short while ago. That being said, Don is a very busy man right now so be patient and the pictures will be posted when he can get to them.

I wish to offer one comment on your build. I hate to do this, as I'm really against criticizing skillfull modellers such as yourself, but I have to mention the engineering implements conduit cover you have mounted on the front of the hull. The conduit cover was only mounted if there was an implement (ie. dozer blade or mine plow) actually mounted to the vehicle. It was not normal practice to leave the cover mounted all of the time.

The armoured receptacle covering (beside the driver's hatch) and the conduit bracket (the 'U' shaped thing on the bottom of the upper glacius) were of course permanently welded to the vehicle, but the actual conduit cover (in 3 pieces - lower tray and two armoured top cover bits) was only mounted when there was an implement and thusly an actual wiring harness to protect.

Before I shoot my own foot off, may I humbly ask Jason (ie. Über-modeller of Leopards) to confirm or deny this observation?

Cheers - Dan
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 12:57 PM UTC
You are right Dan...the actual ballistic covers are only mounted when the mine plow or dozer blade is mounted........but I don't think Rick mounted the cover parts.....I don't even think they are included in the conversion kit.

I think the resin is just thicker than it should be....and it may be the way the light is reflecting in the photos.
junglejim
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Posted: Friday, January 25, 2008 - 03:29 PM UTC
Here's a few pics that might help. First, a Leopard C1, shall we say 'mid' to differentiate it from an earlier one and a later one
So it has the wider guard for the night vision lights, no rear bin, mid point mounting of the tow cables, no hull armour mounts, original mounting of grouser racks, and has mounts for the plow conduit guard; and most likely the lower plow mounts:


Here's a close-up of the glacis, with an earlier (flat) support for the plow conduit:


And a 'late' one. Visible is the turret bin, wider light guard, hull armour mounts, and new (farther back) mounts for the tow cables.


Glacis front showing new mountings of the grouser racks (to make way for the armour attachment mounts):



Note the power wiper top piece/guard sits on top of the driver's periscope guards (as Jason mentioned, the kit guards need to be on first.

And a shot of the armoured plow conduit mount:


As for the hull side tool bins, the latches and hinges are slightly more detailed then the kit ones, and the afore-mentioned mounting lugs are in place.

Cheers,
Jim
Logan
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 01:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I wonder if anyone told JP you can't really build a true late C1 with the MLM C1 Late kit ? It's missing the MEXAS mounts and the rear turret bustle, so technically it's a 'Mid' C1.



Hi

Why don't YOU do so?!? You seem to be ever so knowledgeable in all things Canadian Forces.

I am quite sure JP will listen a well crafted and well documented constructive criticism of one of his kits.

Who knows maybe he will ask you to build masters or have you be a consultant for MLM.

Tom
sauceman
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Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 02:53 AM UTC
Thanks alot Jim those pics really help.

Looks like there are two types of conduit covers, the bottom pic looks more robust than then first one. Is this a later mod on the C2? Or really late in the C1's career?

I will try to add the weld seems on the attachment points today and maybe scratch some wipers and wiring.


I wonder if anybody has ever thought of writing a reference book on Canadian armour, concentrating on post WW2 and modern? Just a thought, with all the knowledge we have just on this site,......

cheers
ADNeate
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Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 03:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I wonder if anyone told JP you can't really build a true late C1 with the MLM C1 Late kit ? It's missing the MEXAS mounts and the rear turret bustle, so technically it's a 'Mid' C1.



Hi

Why don't YOU do so?!? You seem to be ever so knowledgeable in all things Canadian Forces.

I am quite sure JP will listen a well crafted and well documented constructive criticism of one of his kits.

Who knows maybe he will ask you to build masters or have you be a consultant for MLM.

Tom



Did I say the conversion was garbage? Did I say he didn't know what he's doing? No infact if you look over where I had a build log of the C1 you will notice that very helpful people like Jason and Jim answered my questions about a tank that was being used when I was in preschool. Jim went out of his way to show me a version of the C1 that had some features of the "Early" and some features of the "Late" and logically said it could be called, for conveinence sake, a "Mid". Where did I set myself up as an expert in anything? Everything Jim was kind enough to inform me about was totally new to me, and Rick's build just reminded me of that. I've commented frequently on the high quality of MLM products but apparently I make one less than glowing statement and I deserve to be flamed for it . . .
sauceman
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Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 04:28 AM UTC
Here's a few more detail shots from the C1 gate guard in Pet.





















cheers
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 05:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks like there are two types of conduit covers, the bottom pic looks more robust than then first one. Is this a later mod on the C2? Or really late in the C1's career?



There are not two types of cable covers.........it is all part of the same system.

When the tanks were modified in about 1988 for the armoured cable cover the following modifications were done:

-the wedged shaped armoured cable connection was welded to the upper hull to the left of the driver's hatch.

-the horseshoe shaped guide was welded to the glacis plate.

-the thin metal angled cable rail that runs across the grousers on the C1 was welded to the horsehoe shaped mount and to the small mount at the top of the glacis plate.......this cable rail remained mounted on the C1 in garrison, exercises, and deployments as it was welded on.....it was later removed on the C1 when the MEXAS armour mounts were fitted and this remained standard on the C2. The cables ran along top of the rail.

-a two piece ballistic armour cable cover can be mounted over the cable rail protecting the cables.

The armoured covers were considered a piece of ballistic armour and kept locked up in the Quarter Master's weapons vault. It was only issued for exercises or deployments.

The armoured cover simply bolts over top of the cable rail providing a degree of top protection for the dozer blade or mine plow electrical cables. The armoured cable cover is a two piece system with the piece with the long piece and then a much smaller angled piece that curves around to the back of the armoured cover for the cable connections......that's why there are the two welded bolt mounts sticking up by the armoured cable connection.

Photo Copyright Jason Bobrowich 2006


The armoured cover in Jim's photo is only placed where it should be bolted for the photo.....it is not bolted in place....you can see the bolts and the bolts holes are not lined up or secure.
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