I've finally decided to break out of my shell and build a non-Pacific diorama.

Having just been to Pointe-du-Hoc, France, and learning about what happened there on D-Day, a vignette (actually rather a small diorama) idea has been forming in my head. I won't be able to start the vignette/diorama until I arrive back in Australia in a couple of weeks, but I'll start the thread off anyway with some thoughts and questions. I am only planning to build a small section showing the top of the cliff, the general idea is to have:

-Two gunners manning an MG42 in a sandbag emplacement on the cliff edge (with a fair amount of equipment, ammunition etc. lying about).

-One German infantryman standing behind the barbed wire throwing a grenade down the cliff.

I intend to depict the MG42 emplacement on the ranger's left flank which caused so much damage to the cliff-base landings. Does anyone know whether or not the MG42 emplacement was sandbagged or a concrete emplacement?

Also, which 1:35 kits would be best to depict the MG42 with gunners. I think I have a suitable figure ready to convert into the grenade-throwing German, one of the figures from Masterbox's 'Hand to Hand Combat' kit. Would it be suitable, if not, what would I need to do to convert it to a Pointe-du-Hoc defender?

Hope you enjoy the build,
Chas

Ok summing up my main questions:

1 Which kit/s would be best to depict an MG42 gun and crew?

2 What do I need to do to MB's German figure (in the 'Hand to Hand Combat' kit) to make it an accurate 1944 infantryman at Pointe-du-Hoc?

3 Was the machine-gun bunker on the left flank a concrete or sandbag emplacement?

Please reply all experts out there!

Chas

Hi Chas.
Not an expert and can´t help much more than to let you know, Dragon have a "heavy machine gun crew" in action. I have this set as it comes with their OMMR flatbed rail car, but don´t have the number of the individual set. 3 of the figures are kneeling, as if taking cover, and one is laying down feeding the machinegun.

Thanks Frank,

I've been doing some searching around and have found the set you are talking about as well as some others. I will list all the MG42 kits below.

1/35 DML/Dragon Models. German MG42 Heavy Machine Gun Team
1/35 Can.Do Pocket Army. MG42 Heavy Machine Gun Team
1/35 Griffon Models. WWII German Ammo Boxes/Belts/Drums for MG34 & MG42
1/35 Jaguar. German MG42 (2)
1/35 Tamiya. German MG Teams
1/35 Tamiya. German Infantry Weapon Set

Now, can anyone tell me out of this, what is worth buying?

Chas

From your list ... the Dragon figures are Ok .... one of their older sets but definately useable, and - Id guess - that the Jaguar figures should be allright (dont know what they are, but Jaguar are usually good). I´d skip the Tamiya ... really old figures .... the stumpy dwarf kind. Dragon´s Can-do are already assembled and painted, and havent seen any up close, but Id rather do my own. Then the Griffon AM set is up to yourself, but only useful if you already have the figures and M42.

Chas, this sounds like an interesting idea. I seem to remember a History Channel program about the Pointe du Hoc fight, in which the German positions were depicted as being concrete positions, from which MG42 teams fought. Interestingly, I saw an ad somewhere on the web, about a new Verlinden product which looked like what I saw on that show: a concrete, circular pit big enough for an MG team. Search the VLS site for pics of this product. I believe it's in 35th scale. HTH and best wishes, Dave

Thanks again Frank. Your info has been very helpful.

I didn't know that Can.Do was prepainted, thanks or I might have received a nasty suprise in the mail had I ordered it!!

Thanks Dave for the info, I'll have a search around and see what I can find. When I was at the Pointe, I saw some concrete MG pits but I wasn't sure if this particular one was, after all, it was blown off the side of the cliff by naval guns.

As for the MG and gunners, I think I might go for:

DML's German MG42 Heavy Machine Gun Team
Tamiya's German Infantry Weapon Set
Griffon Models' WWII German Ammo Boxes/Belts/Drums for MG34 & MG42

Things are coming together and I'm looking forward to starting it.

Chas

Hi Chas,

Didn't you were coming in France.
Did you enjoy your trip ?
I will try to help you as much as I can. I guess I would recommend you a set of Dragon with a nice guy firing a mg : http://www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/6193-1.html
For the pit I've got no idea of how it was at that time. You just might reproduce the pit the saw during your holiday.
For the guy throwing a grenade, you could go with the tamiya german frontline infantry men, thre is also a guy firing a mg, but he is not very realistic (to much rambo like... lol)
For the german guys equipment, no neede particular change if you use those reference.
One question : maybe the guy defending la pointe du hoc were ex russian soldiers, turned in into the german army. Not sure about that. If yes you coulds inspire from the dragon set for the patch colors.

Hope this helps
Best,
Julien

Hi Julien,

The trip was fantastic, we did a whirlwind tour of all the Normandy battlefields, staying in Villers-Bocage overnight.

That Dragon kit you are suggesting for the MG gunner looks perfect, I will have to buy that. The pose is perfect for what I have in mind.

I'm not sure if there were Russians at Pointe-du-Hoc, as I said, I'm not an expert at all!

Julien, I can't wait to see more progress on your own diorama, the French Indo-China one. How is it going?

Chas

Were the machine gun pits designed for a tripod mounted machine gun or for light MGs on bipods? If they were used with light MGs, the DML halftrack crew includes a nice figure standing firing the halftrack mounted MG which should work well for a gunner in a gun pit.

Bill

Chas, caught this when you first posted it and then totally Wallyed on a response.
All my refs and readings lean on no set fortified positions on the cliff faces themselves.
One, because priority was given to other possible invasion sites.
Two, because the Germans never thought the cliff faces would be attacked. The defensive positions were set back as an anti shipping defence for the guns that never were at the point.
All my searching leads to Germans saying " Whoa , no way dude "and they basically ran to the cliff faces to try and form an ad - hoc [ no pun intended ] defence.

The main defencive positions were well set back except for an o.b. bunker at the point itself.
Yes there might have been some positions on the cliff faces themselves - but none mentioned.



These guys are from the USS TEXAS who came ashore to observe the navel bombardment damage. At the inner defensive ring of fortifacations. Navy dept photo.



And last but not least a pic of the Point due Hoc assualt by artist Larry Selman for a M.OH. winner on D-Day.

Hi Chas,

It's good to read you !
I guess cheyenne gave you good reference to start your diorama.
My tip would be the following : use your artistic licence. Mention at tha beginning of the dio constrution that your idea is close to the reality but use some artistic licence. It will prevent you from some pain in the ass guy always criticising your work because the belt is not black but black, this rivet is not there but here blabla bla
Regarding my own project, I just get married 1 month ago and just returning from my honey moon in Bali.Great time and this gave me the oportunity to take picture of what is an asiatic/jungle landscape, always hidding from my wife who couldn't understood why I was taking pictures of ferns or elephant grass....hard to live with a model geek I guess.
Anyway in august hopefully I will have some nights to dedicate my indochine dio, just changed my idea on some figures.
Best,
Julien

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for your references. I definitely know that there were at least two MG's at the top of the cliffs, see this map:

From http://www.worldwar2history.info/D-Day/cannons.html I get this paragraph supporting that there was an MG emplacement of some sort (whether or not it was concrete, I don't know) on top of the cliff.

The worst problem was the machine gun on the eastern edge of the fortified area, the same gun that had caused so many casualties on the beach. Now it was sweeping back and forth over the battlefield whenever a ranger tried to move. Rudder told Lieutenant Vermeer to eliminate it.

...An attempt was going to be made to shoot the machine gun off the edge of that cliff with guns from a destroyer.

...Satterlee banged away at the machine-gun position. After a couple of adjustments Satterlee's five-inch guns blew it off the cliffside.

So I'm still not sure if it was concrete or sand-bagged? I am now leaning towards a hastily prepared sand-bagged position judging by what you say Glenn.

Chas

Chas , good find !!!
I had wanted to show you this also but the ref pics online where so small I couldn't make out the legend and the associated positions.
Well that answers the mg question, I've got a read on Pointe du Hoc, if I can find it to see if it mentions the construction of the mg positions.
Good work - Glenn

Thanks Glenn, I'll be interested to see what you find.

Perhaps the MG position looked similar to this?

By Verlinden.

Hey Chas I have been toying with the same idea. Could you tell me how tall the cliffs were that they scaled up.
Sheldon

Hi Sheldon, thanks for dropping by.

I hear the cliffs are up to 100ft (30m) high.

Chas

Thanks for the reply
Sheldon

I managed to get into the Hobby store at Botley (Just Add Imagination, highly recommended, full of stuff) where I purchased these kits very cheaply. All I need now is GM's German Ammo Boxes/Belts/Drums for the MG42. I arrive back in Australia on Monday, and I'm hoping to begin progress on the diorama right away!

Chas

That should be recipient, not winner.

Nice set, but if you have fat fingers, and ham fists, like I do, good luck. I have yet to finish one useable ammo can. (but the ones I have tried will make good battle field litter. )

Hey Chas-
From what I understand of the battle everything was quite disorganized and the Americans and Germans fought in very close quarters. On the right side of the cliff, I believe, a large chunk of rock was blown out and a Ranger command post was placed within the diamond shaped position. The CP was under continuous machinegun fire from various unprepared positions around the cliff. Most of the prepared bunkers and fighting positions were blown to hell by the Navy before the Rangers even reached the beach. My advice would be to have the Germans situated in a bomb crater that has the remnence of a concrete positon. Some shattered concrete, twisted rebarb and wire would make a great looking scene. I think you have a great idea, as always.

To answer your question as best I can about the Russians. My great uncle landed at Omaha and one trophy he brought home was a German M16 helmet (WW1) that was given to a Georgian conscript who surrendered to him. I don't know if they were at Hoc but they sure as hell were at Omaha.

-Mike

Hi Chas, I've visited Point-Du-Hoc too.
A fine idea to make a diorama of it. I want to give you one advice : please put some potato masher (you know, the steel grenades) throwing Germans in it. The Germans threw loads ot them to the climbing Rangers.

I was so impressed about the battle for Point-Du-Hoc, It became a subject in my military WW2 collection :



Succes my friend ! G.

Dave, luckily I am quite skinny and my fingers resemble airbrush needles:-)--< I'll give it a go, especially as the ammunition looks fantastic.

Mike, thanks for your info. Judging by everyone’s comments and knowledge, it sounds more likely that the position was sand-bagged, or the remnants of a concrete position. A smashed up concrete position re-enforced by sand-bags may be a good compromise?

Guy, I'm planning on including a grenadier throwing a masher down the cliff. It must be interesting to have all that military stuff at your house!

Chas

Hey Chas, like Mike said who knows what prepared positions were on the clff face prior to the allied navy bombardment.
I found these tourist type pics and they seem to be the two mg emplacements on the map you posted closest to the cliff faces.
If you could enlarge the build a tad you could have the cliff face story and encorporate one of these Tobruk type mg positions also.

Oh and Carl , .......... thanks for the English lesson ............ Captain Grammer , ....... I'm from N.J. so English is not one of my strengths, l.o.l.