Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Space Tiger!
Warning
Joined: August 15, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 06:06 AM UTC
Don't worry, my Japanese is also bad!



I may try a Mars Tiger or more futuristic model after I finish this one. I am trying to approach this lunar Tiger from a realistic perspective (no large hoses, no sarcasm) so I feel that I must model the vehicle as the German engineers might have designed and built it, but maybe it is a bit boring at the moment? There is no real hook to the design.

I did not see the Discovery channel Soviet space tank episode. Is it on YouTube?

I often buy MaschinenKrieger models and have a large collection but I do not often build them. Maybe when Kow uses his molds to make more Raptors I will try one... Maybe when Wave releases their Snake-Eye...

KapitanKudlaty
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am trying to approach this lunar Tiger from a realistic perspective



Of course your conception is superior, we could just try to give you some advices -only you could decide to take it into account or not Your idea of Space Tiger is very interesting, I hope we'll see your model soon on this topic:)

Anyway, I have an idea about base of your dio (you will put your Tiger on dio, right?:) ) - an american flag lying on the moon ground could be some interesting detail... it will remind a photos of flag which plased on Moon...

Tiger may also run over this flag... as you like


Quoted Text


Don't worry, my Japanese is also bad!



Don't worry, MY Japanesse doesn't already exist! But I hope at least my English wasn't so bad... I'm working on it Greetings, Marcin
Damraska
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 10:01 AM UTC
Lawrence, your XM2099 looks great. Is it a grav tank, hover tank, or something else?

Two potential issues: The intake on the front looks like a great place for an enemy to aim. It's a natural shot trap. The other problem is combining a gun with recoil with a floating platform. The second it fires, the whole tank will fly away in the opposite direction. It needs a recoilless weapon or thrusters to compensate.

What are the 4 cylinders spaced around the turret for?

-Doug
Stormin
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 10:18 AM UTC
Hi Warning ,
have you ever read or seen online any Rogue trooper books or games? The idea behind that is a lone infantryman gone across a planet called Nu Earth, the vehicles in that resemble a lot of tanks, helicopters etc. Some of their stuff looks like it may be alonfg the line of what you want to do. i don't have a scanner to send pictures but you can look it up on line. Hope that helps you some and look forward to see your build.
Kenny.
kriegsketten
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ECHELON
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 03:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Lawrence, your XM2099 looks great. Is it a grav tank, hover tank, or something else?

Two potential issues: The intake on the front looks like a great place for an enemy to aim. It's a natural shot trap. The other problem is combining a gun with recoil with a floating platform. The second it fires, the whole tank will fly away in the opposite direction. It needs a recoilless weapon or thrusters to compensate.

What are the 4 cylinders spaced around the turret for?

-Doug



Thanks for your kind words, grav tank perhaps. Yeah, I know what you mean about the front - it's a prototype so the final appearance is not finalised yet. Actually, the turret is more complete than the body - I lost steam on the latter. And I think it's way over engineered. The flaps on the hull sides are actuated (sorta like speed breaks - I'm assuming Mars will eventually be terraformed and there will be some levels of atmospheric pressure but not equal to earth's). Those cylinders - I've meant them to be some form of complex fume extractor cum atmospheric balancing units - something related to the air inside the turret. Recoils? Yeah, I've thought about that too (only recently) - maybe to add some kind of simultaneous thrusts from the vectored jets placed at various edge of the tank. I think the best would be placing thrusters directly behind the turret (to compensate for the recoil), so where ever the gun points, the thrusters are always behind. Recoil-less guns will be considered (but that would be reserved for a new design and a new tank platform) ...

The concepts behind Maschinen Krieger are always admirable. Though I'm not fan of their designs, I do admire their creativity and their ability to express them into model forms. I hope to follow suit with my own range of designs (completely from scratch) - for it is now possible!

The prototypes are still in their design phase at the moment (which look very different from the above). Martian News (11.12.2099): "Prototypes from various factions are taking forms, some testing their guns over remote territories... the engines of war has been fired up, it seems the first Martian war has become inevitable..."
Warning
Joined: August 15, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 03:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text


have you ever read or seen online any Rogue trooper books or games?



No need to scan. I used to collect 2000AD and have thought about modelling a Nort Blackmair in the past, but maybe they are too big?

I will leave this thread open for a few days and if nobody has any technical issues with the proposed build then I will start. The base kit will be the Dragon late tiger (with DS tracks).

KapitanKudlaty, there will be a base but as Germany got to the moon first (it is the late forties) it may be a German or Thule flag on display.

404NotFound
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 05:40 PM UTC
What is a "Thule flag?"
Warning
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 09:24 PM UTC
From Wikipedia...

The Thule Society (German: Thule-Gesellschaft), originally the Studiengruppe für germanisches Altertum 'Study Group for Germanic Antiquity', was a German occultist and völkisch group in Munich, named after a mythical northern country from Greek legend. The Society is notable chiefly as the organization that sponsored the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, which was later transformed by Adolf Hitler into the Nazi Party. Hitler, however, was never a member of the Thule Society, in spite of allegations about his occult initiation in Nazi-occult literature.



A 1967 book by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier made many spectacular claims about the Vril Society of Berlin. Several later writers, including Jan van Helsing, Norbert-Jürgen Ratthofer, and Vladimir Terziski, have built on their work, connecting the Vril Society with UFOs. Among their claims, they write that the society had made contact with an alien race and dedicated itself to creating spacecraft to reach the aliens. In partnership with the Thule Society and the Nazi Party, it developed a series of flying disc prototypes. With the Nazi defeat, the society allegedly retreated to a base in Antarctica and vanished.

Terziski, a Bulgarian engineer who bills himself as president of the American Academy of Dissident Sciences, claims that the Germans collaborated in their advanced craft research with Axis powers Italy and Japan, and continued their space effort after the war from New Swabia. He writes that Germans landed on the Moon as early as 1942 and established an underground base there. When Russians and Americans secretly landed on the moon in the 1950s, says Terziski, they stayed at this still-operating base. According to Terziski, "there is atmosphere, water and vegetation on the Moon," which NASA conceals to exclude the third world from moon exploration. Terziski has been accused of fabricating his video and photographic evidence.

Warsawpact
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 10:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Don't worry, my Japanese is also bad!



I may try a Mars Tiger or more futuristic model after I finish this one. I am trying to approach this lunar Tiger from a realistic perspective (no large hoses, no sarcasm) so I feel that I must model the vehicle as the German engineers might have designed and built it, but maybe it is a bit boring at the moment? There is no real hook to the design.

I did not see the Discovery channel Soviet space tank episode. Is it on YouTube?

I often buy MaschinenKrieger models and have a large collection but I do not often build them. Maybe when Kow uses his molds to make more Raptors I will try one... Maybe when Wave releases their Snake-Eye...




It would be quite cool to think that just like the fighitng in europe, the allies opened up a "second" front in space as well - that would be Mars. The idea whit a hybrid laser canon was that it could also serve as a form of "accelerator" to the solid slug weapon i.e the main 88.mm canon. Maybe some german enginers came up whit the idea when discovering alien relics on mars left there by some waring alien nations and then reverse engineered it?

I love this kind of stuff whit neo-ww2 historic line where the war still rages on.

One thing that puzzles me is how did the germans get the tanks to the moon / mars?
Massive versions of the V1 / V2 rockets or do they have some sort of underground space factory?
And what about the moon dust? Planning some sort of filtration unit on the tiger to prevent dust from destroying the engine ?

The Soviet Tank on the Moon series was on the Discovery Channel about two months or so if i'm correct. I dont know if it where aired elsewhere outside it's European network?
Try youtube and see what you can find

I've got some Ma.k's as well, primary the Strahl forces. Love the Krote and the Gutav models.

BTW. Thule meens North or far north in latin ( i think).

Good luck whit your project and keep us posted.
Regards /

Christian
Warsawpact
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:41 PM UTC
Hey Warning, did you get my PM´s?
404NotFound
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 02:38 AM UTC
Thank you Warning. Believe it or not, I'm actually familiar with those ideas such as those from Mr. Terziski et. al. Amazing the far reaches the human imagination can travel to...

Morning of the Magicians is the book you mention. I read it in when I was of high school age. Very interesting.

Regarding the Mars "mission," I believe the line is that a joint German/Japanese crew made their way to Mars in 1946 aboard some sort of "Andromeda" craft... Another aspect of this mythology is that Admiral Byrd mounted a military expedition against the Nazis in Antartica in, was it 1946? but was driven off with heavy casualties by Nazi flying saucers. Strange that the Nazi Germans would conceal their secret weapons in Antarctica, the Moon and Mars, but for some odd reason, didn't think to use them over Germany during the end period of the war... (And before anyone says it, yes, I do know about the "Foo Fighters" and I don't mean Dave Grohl's band either...)

Some of this ties into the "Alternative Three" hoax, which is worth exploring, if only for similar ideas and as an adjunct to this mythology.

Anyway, couldn't find the Thule flag by way of an image search on the internet. Is it something that actually existed as a genuine flag that was displayed?
Belt_Fed
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 03:18 AM UTC
the question i have is- How would it get on the moon?? The tiger is an EXTREMELY heavy tank, and the germans barely produced a reliable jet engine, let alone a trans-planet rocket.

However, i really like builds like this. You got my intrest.
404NotFound
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 03:21 AM UTC
Antigravity?
Warning
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 04:30 AM UTC
Warsawpact: The engine will be a closed loop system requiring no intakes or exhausts. Therefore, no filtration will be necessary. I received your PM's and sent you one of my own.

404NotFound: The flag, if it is displayed at all, will be similar to the Thule symbol I posted.

I am not sure how the tanks got to the moon (that's for another modeller to decide) but I don't really want to consider technology like anti-gravity as it seems too much like science fiction. German scientists had already experimented heavily with rocket technology so it is plausible that larger rockets with heavier payloads could have transported vehicles and components to the moon. These rockets may have been cannibalized themselves to provide the building blocks of future vehicles or construction.

I posted the Thule explanation from Wikipedia purely as a reference for the Thule flag or symbol that will be displayed. I am not considering it as any part of accepted mythology to back up elements of this build.

Thank you for your interest.

404NotFound
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 04:51 AM UTC
Aerospace writer Nick Cook contends the Nazis were at least attempting to work on antigravity technology. Heady stuff for sure. Check it out in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Zero-Point-Classified-Antigravity/dp/0767906284
Warsawpact
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

the question i have is- How would it get on the moon?? The tiger is an EXTREMELY heavy tank, and the germans barely produced a reliable jet engine, let alone a trans-planet rocket.

However, i really like builds like this. You got my intrest.



Indeed, quite fascinating stuff to think of.
But i think that the germans could have developed a interstellar rocket whit ease due to the fact that the did the massive feat of ever inventing the jet engine in the first place.
For the allies it would have been way more difficult.
Sudzonic
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 08:22 AM UTC
It is really fascinating i saw a documentary on the history of UFOs and they were in some part of Poland i think it was where they were working on anti gravity technology and they also had a base in the czech republic to test flying disc's.

There was also the plan to bomb new york hey had plans to develop a sub orbital bomber and a huge version of the V2 to power a maned rocket so it is not to far of a stretch to think they could get to the moon.

Also warsopact it was the British engineer frank whittle that invented the jet engine it was just the Germans that had the first jet powered plane.
alanmac
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text


But i think that the germans could have developed a interstellar rocket whit ease due to the fact that the did the massive feat of ever inventing the jet engine in the first place.
For the allies it would have been way more difficult.



Em.. excuse me, whilst they did get the first operational plane in the air they were not the first to invent the jet engine. As is so often happens in British history we have great inventors but lack the vision and investment from the goverment etc. to bring these to fruition....


Frank Whittle
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 04:24 PM UTC
Indeed, Frank Whittle & Power Jets invented & developed the jet engine.

Yes, the Germans did manage to develop the first mass-produced ballistic long-range missle (an amazing feat, to be sure), but it wasn't orbital, much less interplanetery and certainly not interstellar. No-one in 1945 could have developed a lunar rocket. Orbital, maybe, with a lot of work and no war, but not lunar. There weren't the materials, the computational power nor the communications technology to do it. It would be another 24 years before a lunar rocket system would be possible. Given the amount of money poured into the US Apollo program, you can be very sure that no-one could have managed it any sooner with any less money & technology. To date, it is still one of the hardest things the human species has ever done and is far from easy to repeat today.

Paul
Warning
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Posted: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 04:59 PM UTC
To all.

This is a thread about a space Tiger: A Tiger tank on the moon. This is an entirely unrealistic concept, and was therefore put in the 'What if" section.

If you are going to start saying what was and what was not factually possible for a particular time then you may be in the wrong thread to begin with as the entire premise requires a large suspension of disbelief.

It is interesting but it is not relevant to the topic at hand.

Warsawpact
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:06 AM UTC
Warning, what is that moon scheme you talked about?
Do you have any examples?

I got so inspired by your project that i'm now seriously thinking of getting started whit something that i've had in the afterburner for a while, a Mars King Tiger on legs.

Be sure too keep us posted your your build
Warning
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Posted: Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 06:51 AM UTC
Hello all.

For the camouflage scheme I was hoping to get a monochrome version of the Ambush camouflage scheme seen on late war panzers... But I'm still thinking.

I have also been digitizing and posterizing images of the lunar surface to get an idea of what scheme would let the vehicle blend into the LTO and jagged speckled 3 tone splinter schemes seem to work well... But I'm still thinking.

I am sure that I will make up my mind just before I start painting. Whatever I do, the finish will be monochrome.



I wish you luck on the Mars King Tiger Warsawpact. Please start it soon.

I am still waiting for any last minute ideas that may change the general design of the build elements on the moon tiger but as of now I plan to start building on Sunday, my day off.

Warsawpact
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Posted: Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 12:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello all.

For the camouflage scheme I was hoping to get a monochrome version of the Ambush camouflage scheme seen on late war panzers... But I'm still thinking.

I have also been digitizing and posterizing images of the lunar surface to get an idea of what scheme would let the vehicle blend into the LTO and jagged speckled 3 tone splinter schemes seem to work well... But I'm still thinking.

I am sure that I will make up my mind just before I start painting. Whatever I do, the finish will be monochrome.



I wish you luck on the Mars King Tiger Warsawpact. Please start it soon.

I am still waiting for any last minute ideas that may change the general design of the build elements on the moon tiger but as of now I plan to start building on Sunday, my day off.




Hi Warning.

I think that the last camo example looks fantastic. Perfect mix of a futuristic look and bright/ dark colors (not making it look like snow camoflage)

I think i will start my project next weekend. I've been loking for some materials for the legs but i can't seem to find any, so maybe i'll go for a Mars King Tiger on tracks...perhaps.

I'll post my thoughts and ideas concerning the king tiger to your PM so i dont ruin your thread.

Good luck whit the Tiger

/
Warsawpact
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

To all.

This is a thread about a space Tiger: A Tiger tank on the moon. This is an entirely unrealistic concept, and was therefore put in the 'What if" section.


I agree completely, just don't say you want it "somewhat realistic" without expecting some "real" discussion.

What we need alongside this is a "Lunar M6 Heavy" to combat that Tiger.

BTW think the lunar camo schemes are really good, all of them. The "digital" scheme probably wouldn't have been thought of in the time period, though. The other two look like "flectarn" and would probably be more likely. An equivalent of the Ambush scheme in greys would also be very likely.

Paul
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 03:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text



What we need alongside this is a "Lunar M6 Heavy" to combat that Tiger.

Paul



I might start that I was thinking about that but I would prolly paint it In olive drab just to be a smart . Hey warning its a really good idea I will be following this build. I had an ide for stowage on your Tiger why not put some of the crew oxy tanks on the outside.

Cheers Alex