I apologize if this is in the wrong part of the kitmaker network.
I am wondering how a Tiger tank would need to be modified to allow it to travel on the Moon or Mars.
For the Moon I have researched hydrogen peroxide-fueled two-stage turbine engines to replace the standard Maybach internal combustion engines and I cannot help thinking that the standard track system would work well on the lunar surface, especially when considering the lower gravity. Ceramic panels would also replace zimmerite.
I have yet to think of weapon replacements that would require little turret modification and that would be available in the mid / late forties.
I have also yet to think about Mars.
Any help would be appreciated on this subject.
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Space Tiger!
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 03:53 AM UTC
lespauljames
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 04:41 AM UTC
now thats a good idea
i cant help with your questions but that sounds Rockin!
i cant help with your questions but that sounds Rockin!
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 04:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
now thats a good idea
There is a precedent for the idea of a German World War Two moon base as well as Nazi UFOs and possible axis alien involvement . There is much writing on the subject. 99.9% fiction! Some accounts detail lunar atmospheres, which would allow tanks to operate unmodified but I still like the idea of necessary modifications for the LTO (lunar theatre of operations).
I was going to replace the tracks with some type of anti-gravity drive but I would still like to keep a certain level of reality.
lespauljames
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:12 AM UTC
its a tricky one
KapitanKudlaty
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:14 AM UTC
Your idea sounds insane, but.... I like it:) And I think I have seen something like that.... Maybe It will help you...
Long time ago I was looking for some modification to my favourite game Battlefield 1942 (yeeah, i love it ) and, absolutely by chance, I found a Battlefield Parallel World Mod. It's just incredible what machines were there.... So when I saw your topic, it brought me back memories of the past.... And I remembered a SPIDERTIGER- one of the most impressive vehicle from Parallel World:
What do you think about it? I hope it will inspired you and deliver some new concepts. Your idea is very interesting, have you already any sketch, drawings or something like that? Geetings, Marcin
Long time ago I was looking for some modification to my favourite game Battlefield 1942 (yeeah, i love it ) and, absolutely by chance, I found a Battlefield Parallel World Mod. It's just incredible what machines were there.... So when I saw your topic, it brought me back memories of the past.... And I remembered a SPIDERTIGER- one of the most impressive vehicle from Parallel World:
What do you think about it? I hope it will inspired you and deliver some new concepts. Your idea is very interesting, have you already any sketch, drawings or something like that? Geetings, Marcin
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
have you already any sketch, drawings or something like that?
Not yet, but the spider tank (spinnenpanzer) looks interesting. It is similar to the KVX2 concept vehicle by Fichtenfoo.
http://fichtenfoo.com/02GiantRobots/02b-KVX2.htm
http://fichtenfoo.com/02GiantRobots/02b-KVX2-2.htm
I want things to have a nineteen-fifties pulp science-fiction feel (bubble helmets and ray guns) but be quite believable so I'm still juggling ideas. Yours is a good one, thank you.
Yoni_Lev
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:41 AM UTC
You might have (better) luck posting this on the Model Geek Sci-Fi/Fantasy forums.
Lots of interesting stuff there...check it out if you haven't already done so.
HTH.
-YL
Lots of interesting stuff there...check it out if you haven't already done so.
HTH.
-YL
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:58 AM UTC
I have checked-out ModelGeek but there you sacrifice visitors for similar subject matter. Things move very slowly there and I would rather show a Tiger, even a space one, to people who might appreciate the starting point, even if the finish is somewhat out of their territory.
I'm not sure that I am making sense, but anyway, this is closer to a paper panzer than an X-Wing so I thought it would suit Armorama better.
KapitanKudlaty: Now I am thinking about many pairs of centipede type legs which could use the existing torsion suspension setup. Large plate feet should spread the weight evenly and in theory it would allow the tank to crab sideways and gain extra height in addition to it's normal movement.
I'm not sure that I am making sense, but anyway, this is closer to a paper panzer than an X-Wing so I thought it would suit Armorama better.
KapitanKudlaty: Now I am thinking about many pairs of centipede type legs which could use the existing torsion suspension setup. Large plate feet should spread the weight evenly and in theory it would allow the tank to crab sideways and gain extra height in addition to it's normal movement.
Sudzonic
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 07:23 AM UTC
Why not try putting wheels like the lunar rover on it for traversing the moons surface??
Damraska
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 07:28 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am wondering how a Tiger tank would need to be modified to allow it to travel on the Moon or Mars.
The first problem is lack of oxygen. The crew, the guns, the smoke generators, the close defense weapon, and the engines in a Tiger all need air to breath.
The second problem is pressure--there is no air pressure on the moon and air pressure on Mars is much lower than that on Earth. Your space Tiger needs an over-pressure system (wasteful but perhaps usable on Mars) or pressure seals (required for the moon). Also, the gun needs to seal to the outside after firing, or every time you open the breech the crew will experience explosive decompression in the fighting compartment.
The third problem is temperature and radiation. The moon gets full sun, with no atmospheric or magnetic shielding, or no sun, which results in temperatures near absolute zero. Mars gets some benefits from atmospheric and magnetic shielding, but still suffers from drastic temperature extremes and lethal radiation. Your space Tiger needs heaters, coolers, and lots of radiation shielding. Any leaky seals in the running gear will result in frozen joints as the lubricants freeze or quickly evaporate.
The fourth problem is maintenance. Tigers need a lot of TLC, and servicing one under such brutal environmental conditions would be difficult at best. The space Tiger better be a lot more rugged than the Earth version.
A fifth problem is ballistics and gun sights. On the moon and Mars everything will travel further for the same amount of energy expenditure. Guns will hurl projectiles much, much further, and with no air resistance on the moon they will remain lethal out to much greater distances. You will need gun sights handle these greater ranges.
A sixth problem is communications. Solar radiation will play havoc on the primitive radio equipment in a Tiger.
A seventh problem is gravity. While a Tiger is relatively slow, on Earth gravity keeps it snug to the ground. On Mars and especially the moon, the space Tiger could catch some air (so to speak), when moving at high speeds. Better include a more robust suspension to handle the extra stress.
An eighth problem is storage. The crew needs environmental suits so they can get out and fix broken stuff. The space Tiger needs human waste management facilities. The crew needs food and water inside the vehicle. Anything that could be damaged by radiation or extreme temperatures must stay inside.
On the moon, just driving around safely can be a problem because the very dark shadows can hide serious rifts or worse. Powerful armored searchlights would help.
I doubt a space Tiger needs zimmerit. Exactly who is going to stick a magnetic mine on the thing?
Basically you need to redesign the tank as a closed loop system with excellent environmental controls and lots of radiation shielding. A tracked vehicle with a chemical explosive main weapon should otherwise do fine in either environment. I'd love to see German moonscape camouflage!
-Doug
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 08:41 AM UTC
Quoted Text
but I would still like to keep a certain level of reality.
I'm presuming that's being sarcastic ;-) But actually, I like the thinking! You might want to raise this wuestion over on www.starshipmodeler.net also
for the main weapon I'd go with some form of magnetic rail gun
Good luck, and post pics of the build
Sean
KapitanKudlaty
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 09:07 AM UTC
Hey, I have an idea - maybe we could have some fun with make a project (drawing or, if you want, complete model) how this Space Tiger should looks like? Of course with all rules appeared by Doug.... that reminds me an alternative history, just take a look... alternative 2008... just stir your imaginations:)
jphillips
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 09:35 AM UTC
What a fascinating idea. Imagine tanks battling it out on the moon! I wonder if it could ever happen, someday?
How about some kind of giant lunar crawler with a railgun? That would be cool!
But I would think that if people ever fight for control of the lunar surface flying vehicles would be better. What do you guys think?
How about some kind of giant lunar crawler with a railgun? That would be cool!
But I would think that if people ever fight for control of the lunar surface flying vehicles would be better. What do you guys think?
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 04:36 PM UTC
To address each point in turn Damraska.
The hydrogen peroxide-fueled two-stage turbine engine will replace the standard Maybach unit for power, although the system is electric rather than IC. The crew compartment could be pressurized, but this is quite dangerous in combat so all crew members will wear pressurized suits which will feed into an internal oxygen supply system. For external use the suits will have a limited personal oxygen supply and I posit that the moon will have an abundant supply of buried oxygen supply bunkers to allow the crew to make their way back to base. Crew hatches will feature larger openings to facilitate the bulkier suits.
Smoke launchers could be chemical rather than combustive. All weapons will need to be replaced but magnetic linear accelerators (rail guns), lasers and similar weapons all need a huge electrical supply so I may have to dip into pure science-fiction to come up with a replacement for the weapons. Maybe rapid microwave dischargers or some form or micro-particle discharger...
This should be handled by the crew suits, as stated above.
The German moon base has always been assumed to have been located on the dark side of the moon but this means that whatever the crew suits are made of must have high levels of thermal protection. Again, science fiction may be the only answer.
With new engines and less strain on the running gear the Tiger may last a bit longer than its earth counterpart.
Combustive projectile weapons may be a moot point as stated above, but the Germans had very advanced sighting technology during world-war 2 so this will continue to be used in the LTO. Early computer technology may be able to deal with sighting problems caused by the curvature of the moons surface.
Upgrades will be necessary, maybe involving rudimentary satellite technology utilizing previously place satellites at the moon's two LaGrange points. Antenna would be modified to show these upgrades.
Indeed. Maybe tires, maybe legs…
External shielded storage compartments which could be accessible from inside or outside the vehicle will be necessary and could replace the flimsy track guards of the Earth Tiger.
Duly noted. The lighting system will be improved.
Lunar allied assault troops?
This is exactly the kind of questions that I needed to work things out in my brain. Thank you.
Pictures in progress.
Quoted Text
The first problem is lack of oxygen. The crew, the guns, the smoke generators, the close defense weapon, and the engines in a Tiger all need air to breath.
The hydrogen peroxide-fueled two-stage turbine engine will replace the standard Maybach unit for power, although the system is electric rather than IC. The crew compartment could be pressurized, but this is quite dangerous in combat so all crew members will wear pressurized suits which will feed into an internal oxygen supply system. For external use the suits will have a limited personal oxygen supply and I posit that the moon will have an abundant supply of buried oxygen supply bunkers to allow the crew to make their way back to base. Crew hatches will feature larger openings to facilitate the bulkier suits.
Smoke launchers could be chemical rather than combustive. All weapons will need to be replaced but magnetic linear accelerators (rail guns), lasers and similar weapons all need a huge electrical supply so I may have to dip into pure science-fiction to come up with a replacement for the weapons. Maybe rapid microwave dischargers or some form or micro-particle discharger...
Quoted Text
The second problem is pressure--there is no air pressure on the moon and air pressure on Mars is much lower than that on Earth. Your space Tiger needs an over-pressure system (wasteful but perhaps usable on Mars) or pressure seals (required for the moon). Also, the gun needs to seal to the outside after firing, or every time you open the breech the crew will experience explosive decompression in the fighting compartment.
This should be handled by the crew suits, as stated above.
Quoted Text
The third problem is temperature and radiation. The moon gets full sun, with no atmospheric or magnetic shielding, or no sun, which results in temperatures near absolute zero. Mars gets some benefits from atmospheric and magnetic shielding, but still suffers from drastic temperature extremes and lethal radiation. Your space Tiger needs heaters, coolers, and lots of radiation shielding. Any leaky seals in the running gear will result in frozen joints as the lubricants freeze or quickly evaporate.
The German moon base has always been assumed to have been located on the dark side of the moon but this means that whatever the crew suits are made of must have high levels of thermal protection. Again, science fiction may be the only answer.
Quoted Text
The fourth problem is maintenance. Tigers need a lot of TLC, and servicing one under such brutal environmental conditions would be difficult at best. The space Tiger better be a lot more rugged than the Earth version.
With new engines and less strain on the running gear the Tiger may last a bit longer than its earth counterpart.
Quoted Text
A fifth problem is ballistics and gun sights. On the moon and Mars everything will travel further for the same amount of energy expenditure. Guns will hurl projectiles much, much further, and with no air resistance on the moon they will remain lethal out to much greater distances. You will need gun sights handle these greater ranges.
Combustive projectile weapons may be a moot point as stated above, but the Germans had very advanced sighting technology during world-war 2 so this will continue to be used in the LTO. Early computer technology may be able to deal with sighting problems caused by the curvature of the moons surface.
Quoted Text
A sixth problem is communications. Solar radiation will play havoc on the primitive radio equipment in a Tiger.
Upgrades will be necessary, maybe involving rudimentary satellite technology utilizing previously place satellites at the moon's two LaGrange points. Antenna would be modified to show these upgrades.
Quoted Text
A seventh problem is gravity. While a Tiger is relatively slow, on Earth gravity keeps it snug to the ground. On Mars and especially the moon, the space Tiger could catch some air (so to speak), when moving at high speeds. Better include a more robust suspension to handle the extra stress.
Indeed. Maybe tires, maybe legs…
Quoted Text
An eighth problem is storage. The crew needs environmental suits so they can get out and fix broken stuff. The space Tiger needs human waste management facilities. The crew needs food and water inside the vehicle. Anything that could be damaged by radiation or extreme temperatures must stay inside.
External shielded storage compartments which could be accessible from inside or outside the vehicle will be necessary and could replace the flimsy track guards of the Earth Tiger.
Quoted Text
On the moon, just driving around safely can be a problem because the very dark shadows can hide serious rifts or worse. Powerful armored searchlights would help.
Duly noted. The lighting system will be improved.
Quoted Text
I doubt a space Tiger needs zimmerit. Exactly who is going to stick a magnetic mine on the thing?
Lunar allied assault troops?
This is exactly the kind of questions that I needed to work things out in my brain. Thank you.
Pictures in progress.
404NotFound
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 06:14 PM UTC
Maybe some sort of "lunar ambush scheme" which would incorporate various shades of brown might be good.
Similarly, a primer red based scheme might be perfect for a Mars-based Tiger.
Once done, be sure to convert some of the photos of your model to black and white and then email them to naziufos.com in order that they might use them for more "proof."
Just take a look at the front page of the site for the flying saucer with the upside down Fujimi or Airfix Panther turret...
Similarly, a primer red based scheme might be perfect for a Mars-based Tiger.
Once done, be sure to convert some of the photos of your model to black and white and then email them to naziufos.com in order that they might use them for more "proof."
Just take a look at the front page of the site for the flying saucer with the upside down Fujimi or Airfix Panther turret...
stooga
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 09:11 PM UTC
"The crew, the guns, the smoke generators, the close defense weapon, and the engines in a Tiger all need air to breath."
Crew and engines yes, but the guns? Remember that when a gun fires the breech is sealed - the propellant is providing its own oxidant because no air is present (otherwise explosives would not function underwater!)
Crew and engines yes, but the guns? Remember that when a gun fires the breech is sealed - the propellant is providing its own oxidant because no air is present (otherwise explosives would not function underwater!)
Damraska
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 09:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The hydrogen peroxide-fueled two-stage turbine engine will replace the standard Maybach unit for power, although the system is electric rather than IC.
I am not a chemist, but I accept hydrogen peroxide turbines as plausible engines for your space Tiger. Hydrogen peroxide is often cited as a possible alternative fuel here on Earth. However, I believe it is considered intolerant of heat and shock in high concentration, something to consider when designing a tank.
Quoted Text
The crew compartment could be pressurized, but this is quite dangerous in combat so all crew members will wear pressurized suits which will feed into an internal oxygen supply system.
Space suits are fine, but unless the space Tiger is limited to short missions they will need facilities to eat and manage waste. I do not see this as a major issue, just another set of gizmos that have to fit inside the tank somewhere.
Quoted Text
For external use the suits will have a limited personal oxygen supply and I posit that the moon will have an abundant supply of buried oxygen supply bunkers to allow the crew to make their way back to base.
The Russians destroyed all those after implementing their scorched moon policy. Better have a plan B.
Quoted Text
Smoke launchers could be chemical rather than combustive.
As pointed out by Aaron above, I was incorrect in my statement that the guns and smoke launchers need oxygen to work. So one less problem for space Tiger!
Quoted Text
All weapons will need to be replaced but magnetic linear accelerators (rail guns), lasers and similar weapons all need a huge electrical supply so I may have to dip into pure science-fiction to come up with a replacement for the weapons. Maybe rapid microwave dischargers or some form or micro-particle discharger...
Actually, chemical explosive weapons will work just fine in an oxygen free environment, and are very efficient. You just need a self contained chemical explosive. Rail guns and coil guns both require way more power than hydrogen peroxide engines can realistically generate. The good news is that space Tiger can utilize low temperature superconductors rather easily! Lasers are somewhat problematic. They require lots of energy and would work rather poorly against tanks designed to fend off raw solar radiation. I still think a plain old chemical explosive gun is the way to go.
When you say "pure science fiction" you mean "science fantasy". I am engaging the topic as science fiction--conjecturing about technologies that could work by extrapolating from existing technologies and ideas. Science fantasy is just making stuff up and slapping scientific sounding names on it. Don't give up so quickly!
Quoted Text
The German moon base has always been assumed to have been located on the dark side of the moon but this means that whatever the crew suits are made of must have high levels of thermal protection. Again, science fiction may be the only answer.
The "dark side of the moon" is just the side that faces away from Earth all the time. (For those who do not know, the moon is tidally locked and always presents the same face to the Earth.) It has a normal day and night cycle just like the side that faces Earth.
I recommend only resorting to science fantasy if you absolutely must (as in the case of faster than light drives). The LEM could handle day and night on the moon, so can space Tiger!
Quoted Text
With new engines and less strain on the running gear the Tiger may last a bit longer than its earth counterpart.
That depends on how many space Thunderbolts and space Mustangs space Tiger must content with. Fortunately, space Shermans are notoriously under-gunned.
Quoted Text
Combustive projectile weapons may be a moot point as stated above, but the Germans had very advanced sighting technology during world-war 2 so this will continue to be used in the LTO. Early computer technology may be able to deal with sighting problems caused by the curvature of the moons surface.
I disagree, but that's all part of the game! I do not see curvature being a problem since tanks use their weapons in direct fire mode 99% of the time. The sights need to compensate for the lower gravity and lack of air resistance, and see targets further out, but the tank will always see the target when used like a tank. Indirect fire weapons have to deal with the curvature problem.
Quoted Text
Indeed. Maybe tires, maybe legs…
Tracks should do just fine on the moon. Tires would work fine too, but Tigers have tracks. This armored vehicle with legs thing--it vexes me. Let's take spider Tiger up further in this thread. With all those legs it weighs more than a regular Tiger, and then concentrates all that weight on those 8 tiny points, giving it a ground pressure of what, 10000 tons per square foot? The first time it takes a step, it will ram those legs into the ground like 8 pick axes driven by pile drivers and never extract itself. Even if you put big floppy feet at the end of each leg to keep the ground pressure down, it will still move slower than anything else on the battlefield. And since it stands about 25 feet tall, it stands out above every other thing on the battlefield. I'll take the regular Tiger, thank you very much. And where the heck does the turret crew fit with those side by side 88s jammed in there? I feel really sorry for a loader having to serve two 88s even if they did fit! I think a walking tank could work, and might even have application in mountains or very broken terrain, but that spider Tiger is not it.
Quoted Text
Lunar allied assault troops?
Definitely mechanized infantry. I do not see anyone slogging it on foot for any length of time in that environment, unless the technology is really advanced.
Quoted Text
This is exactly the kind of questions that I needed to work things out in my brain. Thank you.
My intent is to offer ideas and stimulate thought on the topic, not advocate a particular position or design approach. However, I do encourage you to extrapolate from real technologies and avoid science fantasy whenever possible, as it is usually just an excuse for muddled, shoddy thinking (unless used as a stage for social commentary, which does not apply in this case). Anyway, I hope my musings help with your project. I am also working on some scratch built armor models in this theme, so I think about it rather often.
-Doug
Damraska
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 09:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Crew and engines yes, but the guns? Remember that when a gun fires the breech is sealed - the propellant is providing its own oxidant because no air is present (otherwise explosives would not function underwater!)
I have (re)learned something today, and of course you are right! My bad. This makes the argument for chemical explosive guns even more forceful (in my opinion).
-Doug
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 04:15 AM UTC
Updated. See below.
404NotFound
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 04:32 AM UTC
I'm very glad to know that my idea for a Lunar Ambush Scheme will be used. Can't wait to see this!
Warning
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 05:29 AM UTC
Updated. See below.
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 03:42 PM UTC
Quoted Text
You wouldn't need silver suits (though you could) but skin tight pressure suits that maintain body pressure through suit material tension have been posited before and there is no reason they couldn't work. Add a helmet with a sealed faceplate & you're away. There is no way to put any sort of inflated suit into any vehicle with such a small crew volume and still serve the weapons & operate the vehicle itself.1. The crew will wear sealed pressure suits. I would like these to be of relatively thin material but it might be stretching realism if they are thin silver jumpsuits with bubble helmets. I'm still looking for base figures. The suits will use the same oxygen caplet system as the tank allowing the vehicle to be scavenged for remaining usable oxygen should it be knocked out. These suits may lead to altered crew hatches.
Quoted Text
What you need is a high capacity closed-loop hydrogen/oxygen fuel cell system and not an open-loop turbine system. You'll need to conserve the hydrogen on the moon as there isn't much if any there and it all has to be brought from Earth. A fuel cell would be perfect where the product, water, is collected for return to the base where solar energy cracks it back to H2 & O2 for re-use.2. Hydrogen peroxide-fueled two-stage turbine engines will require modified exhausts and intakes and may necessitate a bulkier rear profile or engine bulge.
One problem with any sort of propulsion technology is the waste heat generated. Without air there are no radiators and no convection cooling. The only way to get rid of extra heat is pure radiation into space and, I can tell you, this is incredibly inefficient. Unless a science fantasy, unobtainium propulsion technology is used, the crew will quickly cook in the vehicle.
Quoted Text
Not necessarily. With no air and little dust on the moon, optics should provide exceptional performance and, with the horizon being much closer on the Moon compared to the Earth, you're direct fire range and your optics range may be identical: the horizon. The benefit of a smaller caliber weapon may be more to do with the ability to use an autoloader and dispense with a crewmember. Speaking of which, the bow gunner should go as well. 3. A smaller caliber weapon will mean a certain amount of space saved inside the crew compartment and as has been stated, the sighting range could be significantly less than the effective maximum range of the standard 88mm gun, making it unnecessary. Suggestions for a replacement main gun are welcome.
Quoted Text
Weight is not going to be a problem with the moon's 1/6 gravity. No amount of materials substitution is needed for that reason. Certainly switching to ceramics is a bad idea as the brittle nature of the ceramics make them a bad choice for an impact type application. A nice, tough steel, like manganese steel, is just what the doctor ordered. Strangely, that's just what they were made of in 1942, as well.4. The tracks will remain as standard but may be replaced by ceramic links to cut down on weight and drive train strain. The ceramic units should be able to cope with the reduced weight of the tank due to lower gravity. This will make the vehicle more susceptible to 'lofting' but the increased weight from additional storage and the heavier engine should balance things out.
Quoted Text
Higher amounts of illumination are not necessarily what's needed as the main problem with the moon is the lack of air to diffuse what light there is. When there is light, you can see the stuff being illuminated quite well. Where there is no light, though, there is almost complete blackness. Even if you carry more light on a vehicle, the shadows during the 2-week nights will still be absolutely brutal and driving will be very, very challenging. The diffusion of natural starlight enhanced by an image intensification system may work better in the night than more light.
5. The lighting system for the tank will be significantly improved, with additional units on the hull devoted to ground illumination.
Quoted Text
Putting openings in the armour of any AFV is an extraordinarily bad idea. The stowage compartments need to open only from the outside.
6. The sides of the main hull will feature armored storage compartments along their length. These will be bulky units with a 45 degree outward profile to deflect small caliber fire. They will be accessible from inside and out and will be used to store non essential items and tools.
Quoted Text
Why? Radio communications on the moon are quite acceptable as 6 manned moon missions and a dozen or so landers have shown. Use the right radio bands and you have no issues. Any culture that can put Tigers on the Moon would have no problems placing sattelites in high orbit.
7. There will be an improved antenna possibly running around the top of the hull and featuring some redundant systems / backups.
Quoted Text
Like it. Keep the colours to only greys. The moon is totally grey. (except at least one small patch of orange, apparently)
8. The lunar ambush scheme will be used.
Oh, and while an explosively based grenade launcher system will work, the actual smoke grenades won't. They will dissipate immediately in the vacuum of space. Even a system that attempts to throw up lunar dust won't work as the lack of air causes dust to fall as fast as if it were lead shot. Perhaps a system that throws up lunar dust and charges it with static electricity at the same time would keep the stuff "airborne" for long enough to mask a vehicle like smoke?
As I intimated withthe point regarding engine heat dissipation, thermal management in a vacuum environment is a critical design point. Daytime surface temperatures will be in the +250F range with nighttime surface being in the -250F range. All that heat has to be either kept away from the vehicle in the day or kept inside the vehicle in the shadows or night. Sunshades and thermal blankets would be the order of the day in an effort to moderate the vehicle's temperature.
Moving components would be subject to the Moons surface dust, amongst the most abrasive substances known. On Earth each dust particle has had it's corners knocked off through the action of wind and water. On the Moon, dust is all raw impact shards, formed from repeated meteor strikes and covered with microsopic knife points all over. Any moving components will be sealed if possible and minimised where sealing can't be done. Anything like a tank's running gear will be worn out much, much more quickly than anything operating here on Earth, even stuff operating in the Saraha.
Points to ponder.
Paul
Warning
Joined: August 15, 2008
KitMaker: 107 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
KitMaker: 107 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 02:58 AM UTC
So, to quickly run through an updated list of the modifications I am planning for the Tiger. Many thanks Paul
1. The crew will wear sealed pressure suits. These will be of relatively thin material and will feature sealed full head helmets and visors. The suits will use the same oxygen caplet system as the tank allowing the vehicle to be scavenged for remaining usable oxygen should it be knocked out.
2. A high capacity closed-loop hydrogen / oxygen fuel cell system will require no exhausts or intakes (I think) but may still necessitate a bulkier rear profile or engine bulge. Excess heat will be handled by a cabin heat exchanger. The electrical components within the hull should generate enough heat during cold conditions for warmth but extra insulation will come from surface treatments inside and outside of the main hull.
3. The amount of recoil generated by a large caliber weapon might cause problems for the vehicle in the lower gravity environment. A smaller caliber weapon (any suggestions) will reduce recoil and mean a certain amount of space saved inside the crew compartment due to the removal of the loader (to be replaced with an auto loading system) and smaller ammunition storage requirements. The bow machine gun and gunner will also be replaced. See below.
4. The tracks will remain as standard but the running gear will be cast out of or plated with a significantly stronger material in order to deal with the effects of the abrasive lunar dust. Suggestions as to what material would be best are welcomed. Tungsten carbide?
5. The bow gun station will be replaced with a camera and low-light optical system. This will be linked to a secondary system positioned in the turret. The drivers periscope will be replaced with a much more rudimentary binocular system as this will only act as a backup to the newer electronic vision unit.
6. The sides of the main hull will feature armored storage compartments along their length. These will be bulky units with a 45 degree outward profile to deflect small caliber fire. They will be used to store non essential items and tools. Towing cables and external storage will be removed.
7. A static generator will run around the top of the hull.
8. The lunar ambush scheme will still be used.
More ideas or discussions on the ones I have presented are more than welcome.
I think I am getting closer to the build start, but I have been wrong before.
1. The crew will wear sealed pressure suits. These will be of relatively thin material and will feature sealed full head helmets and visors. The suits will use the same oxygen caplet system as the tank allowing the vehicle to be scavenged for remaining usable oxygen should it be knocked out.
2. A high capacity closed-loop hydrogen / oxygen fuel cell system will require no exhausts or intakes (I think) but may still necessitate a bulkier rear profile or engine bulge. Excess heat will be handled by a cabin heat exchanger. The electrical components within the hull should generate enough heat during cold conditions for warmth but extra insulation will come from surface treatments inside and outside of the main hull.
3. The amount of recoil generated by a large caliber weapon might cause problems for the vehicle in the lower gravity environment. A smaller caliber weapon (any suggestions) will reduce recoil and mean a certain amount of space saved inside the crew compartment due to the removal of the loader (to be replaced with an auto loading system) and smaller ammunition storage requirements. The bow machine gun and gunner will also be replaced. See below.
4. The tracks will remain as standard but the running gear will be cast out of or plated with a significantly stronger material in order to deal with the effects of the abrasive lunar dust. Suggestions as to what material would be best are welcomed. Tungsten carbide?
5. The bow gun station will be replaced with a camera and low-light optical system. This will be linked to a secondary system positioned in the turret. The drivers periscope will be replaced with a much more rudimentary binocular system as this will only act as a backup to the newer electronic vision unit.
6. The sides of the main hull will feature armored storage compartments along their length. These will be bulky units with a 45 degree outward profile to deflect small caliber fire. They will be used to store non essential items and tools. Towing cables and external storage will be removed.
7. A static generator will run around the top of the hull.
8. The lunar ambush scheme will still be used.
More ideas or discussions on the ones I have presented are more than welcome.
I think I am getting closer to the build start, but I have been wrong before.
kriegsketten
Vendor
Singapore / 新加坡
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 283 posts
Armorama: 177 posts
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 283 posts
Armorama: 177 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 03:40 AM UTC
Hey! My kind of topic - sci-fi tanks!
Don't know if you guys have seen these before:
The above are my 3D works some 6 years ago. I'm hoping to improve on the designs - maybe to give it a complete overhall if I see fit.
Interesting read on the ideas mentioned in the posts above, about the atmosphere, gun systems, etc, etc. I will take all those into consideration and incorporate some of the convincing design aspects to reflect what is really needed on Martian territories. What I'm thinking of would be to include some small vector-thrust nozzles in various positions around the vehicle - so as the manouver better in a fly-by-wire cockpit...
Anyway, sorry to hijack your post. Hope your Space tiger comes to realisation. And so do I of my own...
Don't know if you guys have seen these before:
The above are my 3D works some 6 years ago. I'm hoping to improve on the designs - maybe to give it a complete overhall if I see fit.
Interesting read on the ideas mentioned in the posts above, about the atmosphere, gun systems, etc, etc. I will take all those into consideration and incorporate some of the convincing design aspects to reflect what is really needed on Martian territories. What I'm thinking of would be to include some small vector-thrust nozzles in various positions around the vehicle - so as the manouver better in a fly-by-wire cockpit...
Anyway, sorry to hijack your post. Hope your Space tiger comes to realisation. And so do I of my own...
Warsawpact
Västra Götaland, Sweden
Joined: September 25, 2006
KitMaker: 321 posts
Armorama: 273 posts
Joined: September 25, 2006
KitMaker: 321 posts
Armorama: 273 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 05:18 AM UTC
こんにちは。
私はあなたの考えを愛する! 月のトラは非常に涼しい。
しかし私は火星の暗闇の考える-オレンジか赤いトラをより素晴らしいがありなさい。
これが私が疑問に思う未来であるので、代りのレーザーおよび固体投射物のなぜない雑種か。
ほんの少しエンジンのほんの少し上の背部の大きい発電機規範のための多くのケーブルか。
小さいステアリングは側面でロケットで行くか。
いかにゴムについて鋼鉄トラックをひっくり返したか。
月に取られるソビエトスペースタンクについてのディスカバリ・チャンネルにドキュメンタリーがあった。
それは非常に興味深かった。
点検のMaschinen Kriegerモデル、それらはインスピレーションを与えるかもしれない。
ちょうど少数の思考。 しかし私はあなたの月のトラが非常に素晴らしいことを考える!
私の悪い日本語のために残念。 ほとんど同様に私の中国人悪い状態。
私はあなたの考えを愛する! 月のトラは非常に涼しい。
しかし私は火星の暗闇の考える-オレンジか赤いトラをより素晴らしいがありなさい。
これが私が疑問に思う未来であるので、代りのレーザーおよび固体投射物のなぜない雑種か。
ほんの少しエンジンのほんの少し上の背部の大きい発電機規範のための多くのケーブルか。
小さいステアリングは側面でロケットで行くか。
いかにゴムについて鋼鉄トラックをひっくり返したか。
月に取られるソビエトスペースタンクについてのディスカバリ・チャンネルにドキュメンタリーがあった。
それは非常に興味深かった。
点検のMaschinen Kriegerモデル、それらはインスピレーションを与えるかもしれない。
ちょうど少数の思考。 しかし私はあなたの月のトラが非常に素晴らしいことを考える!
私の悪い日本語のために残念。 ほとんど同様に私の中国人悪い状態。