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Why is there a lack of WWII Japanese figures?
SSgt1Shot
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 01:06 PM UTC

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but neither did the Germans.



How many German's do you know modelling Nazi subjects? OT, but reminds me of a Faulty Towers (I think it was FT) phrase "Don't mention the war".

Besides, the Japanese and German cultures are completely different - and the way they choose to treat the past will be different. Just as in South Africa, the new South African Defence Force do not recognise the country's military history prior to 1994... there were no wars, no one died



Well you know I live in the Southern US and I model the Confederates, not just them damn Yankees.
Tarok
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 01:12 PM UTC

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Well you know I live in the Southern US and I model the Confederates, not just them damn Yankees.



Well there ya go!!
SSgtMack
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 01:25 PM UTC

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While looking at my model collection I noticed I had a overwhelming number of German and American ETO models. I thought, is it me or what's available? As a former US Marine you'd think I'd have more PTO stuff by nature. So I started looking around and while there is a few PTO American figures there is a lack of other countries both Allied and Axis.

I'd like to at some point build more Pacific Theater models and dio's, but there is a extreme lack of Japanese and other figures from the PTO?

WHY?




Please excuse the culturally inappropriate, anthropologically suspect and downright un-PC phraseology and assumptions to follow, but perhaps it's a case of lingering guilt on the part of Japanese society. That and 'saving face'.

The militaristic imperialism experiment of the Thirties culminated in the defeat and devastation of their nation and their culture, and until such time as the historical revisionists win out (which they may well do - apparently the Pearl Harbour attack was 'provoked' by US insensitivity...)., we may not see mass market kits of Japanese troops bayonetting their way through China and Singapore...

That said, many Japanese kit manufacturers have huge arsenals of planes and boats (sorry, ships...) in their catalogues, and even a few AFVs and artillery pieces - but figures of Grunt San are few indeed.

Dunno, but it might be a reluctance to bring up what Grandpa did during the war...

$0.02



Ya Know... I never thought of it that way. But if that is the case, why such a vast variety of Japanese Ships and planes?
Anyway, I see there are some responses to compiling a list. Keep the suggestions coming! I will be happy to compile this and send it to the manufacturers.
What a dis-service to the military forces to hit the beaches and patrol the jungles of the Pacific. Let's get some more kits to honor this theater of the war!

Semper Fi!

SSgtMack
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 02:08 PM UTC
All,

Everyone here has valid points regarding the manufacturing costs, cultural differences, and the lack of the assortment of PTO kits and figures.
One thing that stands out here; there is an untapped market for PTO genre kits and figures, and hopefully we can communicate our desire for this scope of modelling to the manufacturers.
taesung
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 04:24 PM UTC

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Simply put, it's just that ... a hobby, not a requirement for living. When times get tight the first thing to go are
hobbies and other recreational expenditures. So for a manufacturer to still viable you must remain competitive.


Yes, I agree. But to stay competitive through producing better products along with the prices reflects the quality
would be the smarter answer to this difficult time than through a lower prices.


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So folks say there is no demand, ok then why is there a thread? Why has it been mentioned numerous times on various
forums over the years? Must be a reason.


On the other hand, there "Must be a reason" why the manufacturers are reluctant to take online threads as a reliable source
over the years.

Gents,
if you would care to take a look at what Verlinden and Warriors have produced over the years,
they have released some interesting and unique items here and there. But they seemed to
come back to their bread and butter WW2 German, US stuff saying, "what was I thinking?".
Once again, there "Must be a reason".




SSgt1Shot
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 05:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gents,
if you would care to take a look at what Verlinden and Warriors have produced over the years,
they have released some interesting and unique items here and there. But they seemed to
come back to their bread and butter WW2 German, US stuff saying, "what was I thinking?".
Once again, there "Must be a reason".



Well the obvious reason in my opinion would be the WWII German's hands down had the finest looking military fielded since the Roman Legions. Thank their massive propaganda machine, they styled their military to appeal and it worked and still does to these day.
With that said, Rome wasn't built in a day and no one is saying abandon the bread and butter, but man can't not live on bread alone even with butter. Sometimes you feel a niche in the market at a lower or flat margin in order to build loyalty, example I might sell some high end (Wolfe, Viking, Sub Zero) appliances at cost because I know they'll want high end cabinets to go with them and there I can make up any lost profits. So you might sell IJN or other obscure figures at little or no margin because you can make that up on Vehicles and other add-on's. So you might loss a little in one area and make it up in another, to many businesses try to operate on a baseline margins and that doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to offer a loss leader, but I'm not telling anyone how to run their business, I don't know your business, not going to pretend too ... I just know what works for me in mine.

So sometimes you have to create demand and that's easier to do then you might think.
taesung
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 06:26 PM UTC

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So sometimes you have to create demand and that's easier to do then you might think.


Well, I guess that's exactly what Tamiya is doing with their new 1/48 series. And small aftermarket guy like
me should just tag along...
SSgt1Shot
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 06:50 PM UTC

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So sometimes you have to create demand and that's easier to do then you might think.


Well, I guess that exactly what Tamiya is doing with their new 1/48 series. And small aftermarket guy like
me should just tag along...



I think that's a money thing, less plastic, less cost, more money in the till. So they are maintaining a demand via reducing cost by reducing size. As I said earlier, hobbies are the first to go in tight times. You'll notice that their 1/48 prices aren't far off their 1/35 prices not that long ago. And you pointed out, everyone blames gas prices but when the gas come down, they didn't. Oil is at a 5 year low and going down ... let's see some retro 5 year prices.

You won't see me jumping on the 1/48 as 1/35 is small enough thank you. I'd do 1/16 if they had a decent selection. My old eyes and thick fingers barely manage the PE on 1/35 at times. Shoot if I had the money I'd do 1/1 and wouldn't worry about want available in modeling.
Removed by original poster on 12/16/08 - 15:45:31 (GMT).
jimbrae
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 09:26 PM UTC
Not surprisingly, the scale which seems to be geting Japanese figures, vehicles and equipment is 1/48th.

As someone said earlier, there are repeated demands for various subjects which, when they get brought up on the Forums, get an overwhelming support and then, when (and if) they get produced, they sit on the retailer's shelves. A couple of years ago, you couldn't visit the Latest Posts page here without seeing one demand or other for the M2/M3 Half-Track. Visit the Forums now and you'll see a fair amount of people building the (old) Tamiya ones. I can't remember the last time I saw a DML M2 being featured...

Meanwhile, there are still comments from people wanting the M3 to be released from DML..
Doing a Straw-Poll piece of marketing, based on what i've seen, if I was in charge of their marketing section, i'd stick to German...

Once, in a mistaken attempt to do a 'Write-in' campaign for what people would like to see in Plastic figures, I started a similar thread. Unfortunately, it rapidly degenerated into an 'Exercise of the Obscure' - subjects that only a manufacturer with a commercial death-wish would have produced.

Once bitten, twice shy...
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 12:36 AM UTC
Perhaps in my previous post I was a little on the gloomy side. Let me add a couple of more optimistic(?) points.

With what we will be seeing in the next few months, there is, IMO, a trend starting (or has been established) in that the 'theme' at the moment is almost certainly the Western Desert and/or the Early-War period. The recently announced Dingo Scout Car from MiniArt or the A13 Mk.II CT Mk.IVA (Bronco) along with Sherman IIs from DML and Tasca seem to firm this theory up. So, IMO, it's a fair assumption to say that with these new releases coming in the next few months, we'll see some more figure sets of this period.

Not a lot of assistance with the original theme of Japanese Infantry i'm afraid, but THAT seems to be the way things are going,

I'd also like, if you'd indulge me for a moment, to look at the subject from a manufacturer's point of view. I know the majority of manufacturers DO visit this site - Trumpeter, Bronco, AFV Club, DML, Masterbox and MiniArt are regular visitors. This isn't an empty theory or wishful thinking, ALL of them have told me they regularly look at what's happening in the Forums, along with the News & Reviews Sections.

Spending 20 minutes browsing the Network is a LOT different from actually spending a lot of time here. They MAY focus on threads like this (or Chas' Australian Infantry Appeal) but, if you're involved with a small/medium-sized company, you probably have got a gazillion other things to worry about...

I'll repeat the tired old litany. If you want your project to go ahead, DON'T waste their time with telling them what they SHOULD be doing. Put together a completely researched package which includes plans, archive photos, photos of preserved vehicles/uniforms equipment etc. NONE of the companies have in-house researchers they rely on a Network of people who have access to the data. If they think it's technically viable they MIGHT consider it. If it fits in with their existing product line, it stands more chance than going off at a tangent by suggesting something that doesn't fit with their other products.
youngc
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 12:38 AM UTC

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4) IS there as much 'Diversity' in Japanese Infantry Uniforms as in those of Germany? I get the feeling that there isn't (no heavily documented Winter Gear, Desert Uniforms or an evolution in uniforms) ...



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4. No


The only point I can agree with you on is that there were no desert uniforms. I don't want to boast, but if you need documentation, just ask me. If it means getting a new Japanese infantry kit, I'd be happy to do the research.

Ok, now you have got me started!

There was a huge diversity in Japanese infantry uniforms.

The quality of the uniforms (and the physical appearance of the soldiers themselves) rapidly deteriorated as the war got worse for the Japanese. This is how a manufacturer should sculpt a late war Japanese infantryman. This guy was in the Burma campaign, and ended up like this due to cut/over-stretched supply lines, as was the case on many Pacific islands. Although their equipment, when available, continually advanced, uniforms tended to change for the worse (shortage of dyes and quality cloth late-war meant that uniforms became very shabby).

Steel helmets could be canvas covered, netting covered or just left uncovered steel. Other headwear included the field cap (with or without sun curtain) and the cork sun helmet. In some cases, the field cap with sun helmet could be worn underneath the steel helmets. Some soldiers would thread vegetation through their netted helmets, while some snipers at Guadalcanal in particular were provided with matted leaf/grass body suites which gave them a terrifying appearance (if spotted).

The Special Naval Landing Force component of the IJA and IJN had a unique uniform altogether. Their helmets contained an anchor emblem instead of the star, as did their field caps. They were equipped with unique canvas-covered canteens, and black tabi shoes (famous for their divided toe).

The Japanese Paratroopers, equivalent of the German Fallschirmjager wore complex jumpsuits and unique helmets. They were also lightly armed in early campaigns, going into battle with only pistols and bayonets, relying on locating their containers for rifles, grenades etc. Bandoliers were also common. If anyone is interested, you can view the start of my project converting standard IJA figures into airborne troops here:

http://hfmodeling.kitmaker.net/forums/129540&page=1

Japanese winter gear is extremely well documented, one only needs to look as far as Osprey's 'The Japanese Army 1931-45 (1). Just look at the differences here:

China left to right, 1944, 1944, 1942:

Peking, 1937:


Typical of any major WW2 army, the Japanese had a vast and diverse arsenal of weapons which changed and evolved over time. To document it here would take too long, but trust me, there were many, many rifles, pistols, SMG's, LMG's and HMG's, grenades, bayonets and not to forget the famous swords!

I could go on and on about uniforms, if anyone would like to properly arrange an appeal for Japanese infantry, I would be pleased to elaborate...

Chas
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martyncrowther
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 12:59 AM UTC
looking at the Japanese soldier they dont look that far of some russian infantry so you could just convert them no?

Martyn

Totally agree with you Chas!
youngc
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 02:06 AM UTC

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Please do!

A separate thread is obviously needed and would be a welcome addition to this site and the net itself. Who knows, it may spark interest in other modellers and companies. We can't just leave it to FineMolds, Tamiya and Pit-Road to cover what is clearly an often overlooked subject.

Gambatte!



Well, personally I don't have a burning desire to see more Japanese infantry at this moment (not enough desire to drive another full blown appeal). But if anyone else would like to start/run one I would definitely contribute.

Martyn, I don't really know enough about Russian infantry to say a definite 'yes' or 'no' but it sounds like an interesting possibility...

Chas
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JPTRR
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#051
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 02:51 AM UTC
Fine Molds releases numerous 1/35 IJA AFVs. No figures sets I can think of other than the tankers.

Tamiya has their lil' 4 figure set from the 1970s (reviewed on-site) and they have a knee mortar.

Some company (can't think of the name but I think they are from Poland) released a nice 1/35 IJA heavy machinegun, the "Woodpecker".

Yes, I am mainly a PTO guy. I'd love to have figures to model the Kokoda Trail, Buna, etc. Heller made 1/35 sets of French alpine troops and Morrocan troops, Italeri makes Italian paratroopers and assault troops. The Diggers and Kiwis (I've been told those are terms of honor and not derogatory, please correct me if I am wrong) are shamefully unrepresented.

As for Chinese troops, in the 1920s and 30s they were trained and equipped by the Italians and Germans. There are photos of Chinese with Stillwell dressed in Wehrmacht gear. The Soviets supplied them too, so any facist European gear would pass the authenticity test. After 1942, US gear dominated. Just use 1/35 figures and 1/32 gear. Seriously!


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...reminds me of a Faulty Towers (I think it was FT) phrase "Don't mention the war".



Great show--I catch every rerun!


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Just as in South Africa, the new South African Defence Force do not recognise the country's military history prior to 1994...



You can't be serious!?!? ...oh, never mind!
downtowndeco
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 04:07 AM UTC

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I should add that more than half the time people say they want a particular kit subject, but when it's produced they fail to put their money where their mouth is. This is a broad and very general statement, and not aimed at you at all, but merely a market observation based on sales figures relayed to me by a vendor.

Rudi



This is so true. I also manufacture structure kits for the model railroad market. The guys who model in S Scale (1/64th) are always asking me to do another kit in their scale. And it seems that every time I do a kit in S Scale I hear, "Gee, it looks nice. But it's too old too new too western too eastern too big too small too expensive too whatever etc etc.

In the 1/35 market I always get guys asking for undamaged buildings. And at some point I'll probably do a couple. Yet, the reality is, the battle damaged buildings sell better because they already have that character and damage cast in place.The average guy at the hobby shop is more likely to buy something that already "looks neat" vs something that he will have to invest a lot of his own time into to basically get the same sort of effect.

I think it's pretty easy for a manufacturer to gets swayed into doing a project by a couple dozen vocal modelers on an internet board (or at a convention). After a while though you find that those two dozen guys are often the only two dozen that really want the project, and half of them won't even put their money on the table for it today for whatever reason.

Don't misunderstand me. I love to get suggestions and feedback from the guys who buy my kits. But often the reality of making a living at it is hard choices have to be made, and sometimes that means there is just not enough profit in a project to make it worth it's while.

Cheers!

Randy Pepprock
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SSgt1Shot
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 05:11 AM UTC

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I can't remember the last time I saw a DML M2 being featured...



Maybe it has something to do with the US$40-$50 price tag? Whereas the old Tamiya one are as little as US$15.

People vote with their wallet.


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I'll repeat the tired old litany. If you want your project to go ahead, DON'T waste their time with telling them what they SHOULD be doing. Put together a completely researched package which includes plans, archive photos, photos of preserved vehicles/uniforms equipment etc. NONE of the companies have in-house researchers they rely on a Network of people who have access to the data. If they think it's technically viable they MIGHT consider it. If it fits in with their existing product line, it stands more chance than going off at a tangent by suggesting something that doesn't fit with their other products.



Great, give me a company credit, they don't sell their models for nothing I'm not going to set around researching for nothing ... their time is valuable and so is mine. In all do respect Jim, not a lot of people are going to spend a lot of time researching, collection and laying out date accompanied with a product proposal to benefit a company just to turn around and PAY for the privilege of doing it. If a company provided incentive if you submit a proposal and if they accept it they'll give you X amount of credit in models of your choice. These companies might find themselves inundated with proposals, but have a guideline so you don't get a lot of crap proposals.

Just because there is a demand for something, it doesn't mean at ANY PRICE some of these companies think if there is a out cry for a product that people will buy it and pay anything for it and that is clearly not the case. If said it before everyone has a price point to where they will pay no more. There are some high dollar models out there I'd like to have, I'm just not going to pay what they want for them, regardless if I can afford them or not. Like most modelers I have 2 to 5 years worth of unbuilt models setting around I don't need to tie up money in overpriced indulgences, however I will buy reasonably priced enhancements.

This is IMO why the modeling battlefield is littered with the bodies of dead or dying companies; greed, plain and simple. I'd like to see more PTO figures but there is a point where I will not buy them even if available if the price is not right.

Is there a desire for something new and not the same old, same old stuff populating the shelves? Sure there is, but that desire has a caveat venditor ... don't expect the buyer to beat a path to your door if you try to drain their pockets.

But hey, the consumer is a fickled beast sometimes you just don't know what will work until you put it out there.


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I also manufacture structure kits for the model railroad market.



Yes I HAD a number of N Scale Downtown Deco kits (Addams Ave., Blair Ave. sets, et al) That were LOST in a move alone with my DPM and Cornerstone. They looked like nice kits though, wish I knew which moving guy got them.

I even e-mailed you a couple or more years ago about 1/35 scale dio pieces and referred you to this site and others as a possible market opportunity.


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But often the reality of making a living at it is hard choices have to be made, and sometimes that means there is just not enough profit in a project to make it worth it's while.



This is again IMO where you make a piece or two to test the market, sure you'll have a investment of time and modeling and molds, but it takes money to make money as you know. If you make money, great make more, if you break even, well figure out if it's the market or the product, if you loose money, chalk it up as a bad idea. No one ever had success without failure as I'm sure many of you can attest. I believe I could be that poster child for that one.
AlanL
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 06:37 AM UTC
Hi Dave,

Don't know if this got mentioned by these guys have some good stuff

http://www.japanesearmorking.com/jak3.htm

Whether these were small production runs or not I don't know but you could always contact them and ask.

Understand the resin v plastic cost but it's just a thought.

Al

1969
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 06:50 AM UTC
I personally think the problem is a generational one reference more German and U.S figures and will only change with future generations of modellers.The reaon is that our generation of modellers grew up under a heavy influence of Films featuring mainly the ETO and mainly staring German and U.S troops,this subconciously influences our choice of modelling.
It will be intersting to see how popular German subjects will be for the future generations of modellers,i think the main focus of figures will more than likely be U.S in the middle East.

Maybe if Hollywood threw out endless films realating to the PTO then maybe opinions would change.

Steve
youngc
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:41 AM UTC
Warning, why did you delete your post? I hope you didn't take my response the wrong way. I thought your suggestion was a great idea, I was just saying that I don't have enough time, or the motivation to run another appeal at the moment. Having run the Aussie one I know it involves a LOT of work, and a long time staring at the computer screen.

Once things settle down for me (eg. after yr 12 examinations), who knows... In the meantime, there must be someone else out there who would be willing to set up and run a proposal?


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Some company (can't think of the name but I think they are from Poland) released a nice 1/35 IJA heavy machinegun, the "Woodpecker".


That was from a company called RMG. There is also a review on this site.

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Yes, I am mainly a PTO guy. I'd love to have figures to model the Kokoda Trail, Buna, etc.


Have you seen the proposal over at HF?

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Diggers and Kiwis (I've been told those are terms of honor and not derogatory, please correct me if I am wrong) are shamefully unrepresented.


No harm there mate. That's fair dinkum

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Great, give me a company credit, they don't sell their models for nothing I'm not going to set around researching for nothing ... their time is valuable and so is mine. In all do respect Jim, not a lot of people are going to spend a lot of time researching, collection and laying out date accompanied with a product proposal to benefit a company just to turn around and PAY for the privilege of doing it. If a company provided incentive if you submit a proposal and if they accept it they'll give you X amount of credit in models of your choice. These companies might find themselves inundated with proposals, but have a guideline so you don't get a lot of crap proposals.


IF you had a genuine desire and personal interest for the subject, you shouldn't have any reservations about running an appeal. Besides, I should think the company would provide you with a free kit or two for your work.

Regards,
Chas
taesung
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text


...they don't sell their models for nothing I'm not going to set around researching for nothing ...
their time is valuable and so is mine. In all do respect Jim, not a lot of people are going to spend
a lot of time researching, collection and laying out date accompanied with a product proposal to
benefit a company just to turn around and PAY for the privilege of doing it.


Dave, it starts to sound like what those "greedy" companies are saying now.


Quoted Text


Just because there is a demand for something, it doesn't mean at ANY PRICE some of these
companies think if there is a out cry for a product that people will buy it and pay anything for it
and that is clearly not the case. If said it before everyone has a price point to where they will pay
no more.


Like you mentioned in your earlier post, and fully I agree, consumers with money have the power to choose.
And they get what they pay for. And they should. One wants cheaper goods? Buy kits from Alan, Maquette, etc.
and be doomed to an agonizing build. Otherwise, pay more, get a better kit (over-priced ones included), and stay happy.
If one thinks he could produce a Tamiya quality kit with Alan price tag, please consider now to be the
perfect time to send an email to Mr. Tamiya. And please hurry.


Quoted Text

This is again IMO where you make a piece or two to test the market, sure you'll have a investment of time and
modeling and molds, but it takes money to make money as you know. If you make money, great make more, if you break
even, well figure out if it's the market or the product, if you loose money, chalk it up as a bad idea. No one ever had success
without failure as I'm sure many of you can attest. I believe I could be that poster child for that one.


No, Dave. I don't agree with this at all. Basically you are saying that: if the online kit suggestions become reality and it sells,
fine. If it tanks, walk it off." The companies are not being greedy. They are just not being stupid. That's all.
In my humble(?) opinion, this is exactly why manufacturers regard these online kit suggestions as unreliable at best.
"Whoopsy daisy, it didn't work out, huh?! We all feel bad, but at least you tried... A for Effort, son!" ;P


downtowndeco
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 01:22 PM UTC



Quoted Text


No, Dave. I don't agree with this at all. Basically you are saying that: if the online kit suggestions become reality and it sells,
fine. If it tanks, walk it off." The companies are not being greedy. They are just not being stupid. That's all.
In my humble(?) opinion, this is exactly why manufacturers regard these online kit suggestions as unreliable at best.
"Whoopsy daisy, it didn't work out, huh?! We all feel bad, but at least you tried... A for Effort, son!" ;P





I agree with you. I expect and accept a certain amount of risk. Like they say, "If was easy, everyone would be doing it". But what people need to understand though is sometimes it's not as easy as just "walking it off" and moving on to the next project.

Think of it this way. Let's say (for example) that it takes a month to design, master and release a new project. That's four weeks with no income. You then produce the kit & it bombs. No takers. Meanwhile the mortgage, insurance, car payments, bills etc etc. just keep on coming....

You can see why manufacturers are careful about their choices.

Randy Pepprock
Dioramas Plus
SSgt1Shot
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 02:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

No, Dave. I don't agree with this at all. Basically you are saying that: if the online kit suggestions become reality and it sells,
fine. If it tanks, walk it off." The companies are not being greedy. They are just not being stupid. That's all.
In my humble(?) opinion, this is exactly why manufacturers regard these online kit suggestions as unreliable at best.
"Whoopsy daisy, it didn't work out, huh?! We all feel bad, but at least you tried... A for Effort, son!" ;P



Well you might not agree with me but companies do it all the time. Test marketing is a staple of product development. Even if one did 3D mock ups and take pre-orders subject to a minimum number of pre-sales. Not enough pre-orders then no sales. No physical mock up required.


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Dave, it starts to sound like what those "greedy" companies are saying now.



Yeah, and ...? If you spend your time developing/making a product you hope to be rewarded for it, if a hobbyist spend times researching and submitting a potential product, I'm pretty sure a warm fuzzy isn't enough.


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If one thinks he could produce a Tamiya quality kit with Alan price tag, please consider now to be the perfect time to send an email to Mr. Tamiya. And please hurry.



Comparing Russian and Japanese models is apples and oranges. You know that. Tamiya you generally have consistency, Russian/Former Soviet block nation models are hit or miss in many cases. I've gotten so really nice models out of Former USSR of uncommon pieces, then again I've gotten some real junk.

Anyway some company, some day, somewhere will see the void and fill it. If not, maybe I'll build something new, like a Sherman.