While looking at my model collection I noticed I had a overwhelming number of German and American ETO models. I thought, is it me or what's available? As a former US Marine you'd think I'd have more PTO stuff by nature. So I started looking around and while there is a few PTO American figures there is a lack of other countries both Allied and Axis.
I'd like to at some point build more Pacific Theater models and dio's, but there is a extreme lack of Japanese and other figures from the PTO?
WHY?
There is at least a 1000 German figure sets, 100's of American figure sets (mostly Europe i.e. Army ETO) but locating Japanese and other figures a far and few between, I've found maybe 5 or 10 sets so far Japanese and even less of some others.
Just a quick check at Scale Hobbyist yielded a whopping 9 Japanese set ... on the other hand over 600 German sets, what's up with that?
As many will note there is a lack of many other figures too ...
British
Italian
French
Australian
Chinese
Canadian
and many, many others.
There has been a slight increase in Russian figures as of late as more and more Russian/Former Eastern Block modeling companies become more readily available in the west. However, from the looks of it you'd think that the modeling manufactures believe that WWII was in pretty much in Europe and between the US and Germany only. Which has ya'll know is not the case at all.
So is it me or have others made this observation?
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Why is there a lack of WWII Japanese figures?
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 07:05 AM UTC
CMOT
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 09:10 AM UTC
There are 3 sets of figures coming out anytime now from Master Box, here are links to the sets. Masterbox Confirm Their Japanese & USMC Figure Sets and I am really looking forward to getting my hands on these three sets, which for me is a big thing because I am no figure painter.
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 11:26 AM UTC
Dragon just came out with the M4A2 for the Pacific theater, and their new M3 75mm halftrack has marking for a Saipan vehicle, so maybe this is a sign of more things to come. I was really hoping they would make a figure set for the 75mm gun. Normandy, Kursk, Tunisia, the Ardennes, Kharakov are all represented by German armor and figures, and the Sherman can be thrown in with a smaller selection of figures to represent the US Army and generically limited allies, but there is little to show for Guadalcanal, New Guinea, Kwajalein, Peleliu, or most other locations in the Pacific, and even less for India/Burma/China. You can show an empty LVT but most of the figures provided are dressed for Northern Europe, not the tropics.
If any company started offering softskin vehicles and remembered the Pacific Theater, I think (if done correctly) they would be well rewarded by many grateful customers. I don't expect to ever see a 4 ton 6x6 towing an M1918 155 mm howitzer, but an 81mm mortar with a Marine crew or a M1A1 105mm howitzer shouldn't be too far out of the question. Nor should a Japanese 47mm anti-tank gun w/crew or an infantry set with a knee mortar, or tractors and trucks and other artillery and . . . .
Academy seems to offer subjects that are a little different, like the M12 or M3, that must sell well. They already have an M4A2 with the wading trunks. Maybe they could step in and grab the market. If someone in the business were to read the blogs on this site (and I'm sure many others) and see how much demand there really is for a Tilly or a Mack truck, or Australian infantry, they would have to realize soon how much potential there is for business (and profit, important in these trying economic times.) They might even post a poll just to find out (Tamiya did not too long ago, hopefully they will respond to the input).
Good businesses will respond to customer demand. If enough people speak up about these issues, someone will have to take notice. Alan L did a plea to manufacturers and a few posted there. We have to keep it up if we want any kind of manufacturer response.
If any company started offering softskin vehicles and remembered the Pacific Theater, I think (if done correctly) they would be well rewarded by many grateful customers. I don't expect to ever see a 4 ton 6x6 towing an M1918 155 mm howitzer, but an 81mm mortar with a Marine crew or a M1A1 105mm howitzer shouldn't be too far out of the question. Nor should a Japanese 47mm anti-tank gun w/crew or an infantry set with a knee mortar, or tractors and trucks and other artillery and . . . .
Academy seems to offer subjects that are a little different, like the M12 or M3, that must sell well. They already have an M4A2 with the wading trunks. Maybe they could step in and grab the market. If someone in the business were to read the blogs on this site (and I'm sure many others) and see how much demand there really is for a Tilly or a Mack truck, or Australian infantry, they would have to realize soon how much potential there is for business (and profit, important in these trying economic times.) They might even post a poll just to find out (Tamiya did not too long ago, hopefully they will respond to the input).
Good businesses will respond to customer demand. If enough people speak up about these issues, someone will have to take notice. Alan L did a plea to manufacturers and a few posted there. We have to keep it up if we want any kind of manufacturer response.
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 01:28 PM UTC
Well there is a fair, albeit not extensive selection of PTO equipment. Granted there is still a lot of missing equipment from the PTO that could keep a modeling company supplied with new material for years instead of the endless parade of ... ohh another Sherman or ooh another Tiger. I believe there are more variations of Tigers tanks on the market than the Germans ever built. (ok maybe not but you get the idea.)
The biggest lack remains figures, there is just precious few PTO figures compared to the ETO. Somehow I don't think it was any smaller of a war.
Years and years ago I was a mold maker, but nothing ever as small as 1/35 or 54mm and sculpting figures wasn't my forte. But there is a niche market out there for a number of subject matters and even in tough economic times people will still pay money for something they are looking for provided the price is right and that is the problem with many resin figure makers, they are just too proud of their product.
A few companies who will remain nameless seem to think that their product is worth $20 or more for a single little 1/35 figure and I for one think that is a tad high for my pocket. Now I'm all about making a profit, but you'll sale a lot more for less than for more ... ask any successful business. Just my opinion.
The biggest lack remains figures, there is just precious few PTO figures compared to the ETO. Somehow I don't think it was any smaller of a war.
Years and years ago I was a mold maker, but nothing ever as small as 1/35 or 54mm and sculpting figures wasn't my forte. But there is a niche market out there for a number of subject matters and even in tough economic times people will still pay money for something they are looking for provided the price is right and that is the problem with many resin figure makers, they are just too proud of their product.
A few companies who will remain nameless seem to think that their product is worth $20 or more for a single little 1/35 figure and I for one think that is a tad high for my pocket. Now I'm all about making a profit, but you'll sale a lot more for less than for more ... ask any successful business. Just my opinion.
Tarok
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
Armorama: 3,245 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 02:07 PM UTC
If you think you have a viable idea, why not put a well structured appeal/proposal such as this together? 1:35 WW2 Australian infantry APPEAL This was posted on many hobby websites.
Manufacturers are generally ready to listen, but may not have the resources to conduct the extensive research (historical and market) that is required.
I should add that more than half the time people say they want a particular kit subject, but when it's produced they fail to put their money where their mouth is. This is a broad and very general statement, and not aimed at you at all, but merely a market observation based on sales figures relayed to me by a vendor.
Rudi
Manufacturers are generally ready to listen, but may not have the resources to conduct the extensive research (historical and market) that is required.
I should add that more than half the time people say they want a particular kit subject, but when it's produced they fail to put their money where their mouth is. This is a broad and very general statement, and not aimed at you at all, but merely a market observation based on sales figures relayed to me by a vendor.
Rudi
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 04:52 PM UTC
Rudi, I completely understand what you are saying. However, I don't think that if one person buys a single kit it's going to make or break a companies tooling and manufacturing investment. There has to be a greater demand, in the 1000's of people to justify the investment in injection molding.
A company, especially plastic injection molding would have to have a viable market to invest, tool and produce a molded plastic figure as a injection mold can cost several 1000 dollars, 10's of 1000's in some cases which all depending on the size and complexity of the mold. Then again you can churn them out in mass for pennies when done. Thus allowing you to sell them cheaply.
Resin as you know is often hand poured into rubber or silicone molds and those mold begin loosing detail right away. Therefore you have a limited number of pours in any given mold before it needs to be replaced compared to steel molds. It's far more labor intensive, but does ofter greater detail do to the great flexibility/pliability of the mold, undercuts are not big of issue as they are in steel molds.
Back to the original point, companies will often feel out a desire of a product and if they see one they'll pursue production. Now they might ask a question ...
"Hey, if we make a 1/35 Australian WWII figure, will you buy it?"
Two important variable is missing from that question, what will it cost the consumer and what does it look like? So they pump out a few models at some unreasonable price and then are surprised when people don't line up to buy them. Many modeler either are not able or are unwilling to pay US$15-$20 for a small single resin figure or the figure poses don't work for them.
In short you can sell 10 or 15 for $20+ a piece, or you can sell 200 or 300 at $5 a piece. The math is simple. It's a cost benefit annalist and to many garage companies try to recoup their investment to fast and undercut their profits with higher prices.
So attention model companies ... build it and they will come, but keep it affordable! Every dollar you go up in price, you cut that many more people out of the market. Most everyone has a psychological price barrier, trick is finding the sweet spot.
Well I'm ranting, so I'll stop. I just find it odd there is 100's of ETO American and German figures and so few of the others.
A company, especially plastic injection molding would have to have a viable market to invest, tool and produce a molded plastic figure as a injection mold can cost several 1000 dollars, 10's of 1000's in some cases which all depending on the size and complexity of the mold. Then again you can churn them out in mass for pennies when done. Thus allowing you to sell them cheaply.
Resin as you know is often hand poured into rubber or silicone molds and those mold begin loosing detail right away. Therefore you have a limited number of pours in any given mold before it needs to be replaced compared to steel molds. It's far more labor intensive, but does ofter greater detail do to the great flexibility/pliability of the mold, undercuts are not big of issue as they are in steel molds.
Back to the original point, companies will often feel out a desire of a product and if they see one they'll pursue production. Now they might ask a question ...
"Hey, if we make a 1/35 Australian WWII figure, will you buy it?"
Two important variable is missing from that question, what will it cost the consumer and what does it look like? So they pump out a few models at some unreasonable price and then are surprised when people don't line up to buy them. Many modeler either are not able or are unwilling to pay US$15-$20 for a small single resin figure or the figure poses don't work for them.
In short you can sell 10 or 15 for $20+ a piece, or you can sell 200 or 300 at $5 a piece. The math is simple. It's a cost benefit annalist and to many garage companies try to recoup their investment to fast and undercut their profits with higher prices.
So attention model companies ... build it and they will come, but keep it affordable! Every dollar you go up in price, you cut that many more people out of the market. Most everyone has a psychological price barrier, trick is finding the sweet spot.
Well I'm ranting, so I'll stop. I just find it odd there is 100's of ETO American and German figures and so few of the others.
SSgtMack
Joined: July 04, 2005
KitMaker: 117 posts
Armorama: 102 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 05:17 PM UTC
SSgt1Shot,
I couldn't agree more. I come from a manufacturing background and concur there are cost effective ways to produce resin figures AND plastic. I believe the response would be worth the manufacturers time and investment. We just need a few more people to scream loud enough to let them know what we want. I like the LVTs that Italeri put out but I like to fill them with crewmen and a Marine fireteam to make the scene as historically accurate and appeasing to the imagination.
So now that we nailed the root of our displeasure with the lack of PTO forces in modelling... What shall we do???
Are there enough members that are willing to devote some time and energy to share their thoughts on what they would like to see from the manufacturers? Let's put a call out and get the information compiled and sent to big companies (Dragon, Tamiya, and Verlinden???)
Any one else interested in this endeavor?
Semper Fi!
I couldn't agree more. I come from a manufacturing background and concur there are cost effective ways to produce resin figures AND plastic. I believe the response would be worth the manufacturers time and investment. We just need a few more people to scream loud enough to let them know what we want. I like the LVTs that Italeri put out but I like to fill them with crewmen and a Marine fireteam to make the scene as historically accurate and appeasing to the imagination.
So now that we nailed the root of our displeasure with the lack of PTO forces in modelling... What shall we do???
Are there enough members that are willing to devote some time and energy to share their thoughts on what they would like to see from the manufacturers? Let's put a call out and get the information compiled and sent to big companies (Dragon, Tamiya, and Verlinden???)
Any one else interested in this endeavor?
Semper Fi!
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefJoined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 05:53 PM UTC
Unless I am way off the mark here, most common wealth countries had very similar uniforms during WW2, so if a manufacturer produced a set of 4 to 6 figures, and included weapons, heads, and headwear suitable for a number of common wealth countries I believe they would make a killing and corner an area of the market if only for a short time. I appreciate that the kit would be slightly pricier than a box set of a specific countries forces, but the extra outlay would be nothing compared to the increased attraction of that set to the end user, plus I do not believe there would be any competition currently. Perhaps the addition of some uniform pockets and the like would further increase there attraction and broaden the usefulness of the set.
Havoc
Joined: October 08, 2002
KitMaker: 893 posts
Armorama: 682 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 06:37 PM UTC
I, too, feel the lack of Pacific Theater figures... I am all for additional and well-sculpted Marines, Army (PTO), Navy, and Japanese Army figures... Nemrod has just come out with two beautifully sculpted Marines --- the problem with them is the pricing: $30.00 for two figures! I've got one of their Army paratrooper figures and the sculpting is amazing! But ya gotta save up your paper route money for their (and other manufacturers' pricey figures)...
And I have always agreed --- especially with a background in Sales --- that while there is a balance between maintaining the strength of your brand, that ultimately, if your prices are reasonable that you will sell more product...in this case, figures.
Indeed, we need more Dragon Gen 2 Marine figures --- grunts, tankers, artillerymen, crews for the M3 GMC, etc. Same for Japanese. I've got built up LVTs, and an LCM-3, LCVP and an LCP-L that I would love to man with Marines ready to hit the beach...but short of hitting the lottery, it ain't gonna happen!
Who knows, maybe with Dragon's late -war PTO Sherman out and a composite hulled Sherman on the Future Releases list, maybe we'll see some new current technology PTO figure sets from them (and it would also be great to see some new Vietnam era subjects tackled Gen 2 style as well!)
Kit-wise, I've said this before, but I'd love to see styrene kits of the LVT-3 Bushmaster, LCM-6, late model LVT (A) 4 "Marianas model", LVT-4 flamethrower (and LVT rocket launcher) 75mm Pack howitzer, new 105mm howitzer, one ton M2.5 rocket launching jeep, any Japanese artillery (especially the 47mm gun), composite hull Sherman, an LVT-1, M4A3 Pacific Sherman, Japanese Type 89 and Type 2 Ka-mi (amphibious tank)...amongst other things!
Pit Road has released a cool little Type 95 Kurogane staff car in 35th --- was jazzed to see this! I plan to pick one of these up and see if I can stuff a Marine behind the wheel!
I'm looking forward to the new Masterbox sets! I have never seen their figures in person, but hope that they are good and reasonably-priced... If so I will pick up a couple of sets.
Anyway, that's my long-winded way of saying "Oh, yes, I feel your pain!!"
Fingers crossed for future figure and kit releases.
Regards and Aloha,
Johnny B.
And I have always agreed --- especially with a background in Sales --- that while there is a balance between maintaining the strength of your brand, that ultimately, if your prices are reasonable that you will sell more product...in this case, figures.
Indeed, we need more Dragon Gen 2 Marine figures --- grunts, tankers, artillerymen, crews for the M3 GMC, etc. Same for Japanese. I've got built up LVTs, and an LCM-3, LCVP and an LCP-L that I would love to man with Marines ready to hit the beach...but short of hitting the lottery, it ain't gonna happen!
Who knows, maybe with Dragon's late -war PTO Sherman out and a composite hulled Sherman on the Future Releases list, maybe we'll see some new current technology PTO figure sets from them (and it would also be great to see some new Vietnam era subjects tackled Gen 2 style as well!)
Kit-wise, I've said this before, but I'd love to see styrene kits of the LVT-3 Bushmaster, LCM-6, late model LVT (A) 4 "Marianas model", LVT-4 flamethrower (and LVT rocket launcher) 75mm Pack howitzer, new 105mm howitzer, one ton M2.5 rocket launching jeep, any Japanese artillery (especially the 47mm gun), composite hull Sherman, an LVT-1, M4A3 Pacific Sherman, Japanese Type 89 and Type 2 Ka-mi (amphibious tank)...amongst other things!
Pit Road has released a cool little Type 95 Kurogane staff car in 35th --- was jazzed to see this! I plan to pick one of these up and see if I can stuff a Marine behind the wheel!
I'm looking forward to the new Masterbox sets! I have never seen their figures in person, but hope that they are good and reasonably-priced... If so I will pick up a couple of sets.
Anyway, that's my long-winded way of saying "Oh, yes, I feel your pain!!"
Fingers crossed for future figure and kit releases.
Regards and Aloha,
Johnny B.
captnenglish
Joined: May 20, 2008
KitMaker: 1,184 posts
Armorama: 770 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 06:56 PM UTC
Warriors produces several USMC and IJA kits (resin so yes more pricey than injection molded) that are quite nice
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 07:21 PM UTC
Warrior wants on average $15 per figure, and frankly no offense to anyone here working for Warrior ... they're just not that good. They lack detail and seem lifeless, looking more like a store mannequins. I'd personally expect better for what they ask for them.
acav
Joined: May 09, 2002
KitMaker: 517 posts
Armorama: 290 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 11:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
While looking at my model collection I noticed I had a overwhelming number of German and American ETO models. I thought, is it me or what's available? As a former US Marine you'd think I'd have more PTO stuff by nature. So I started looking around and while there is a few PTO American figures there is a lack of other countries both Allied and Axis.
I'd like to at some point build more Pacific Theater models and dio's, but there is a extreme lack of Japanese and other figures from the PTO?
WHY?
Please excuse the culturally inappropriate, anthropologically suspect and downright un-PC phraseology and assumptions to follow, but perhaps it's a case of lingering guilt on the part of Japanese society. That and 'saving face'.
The militaristic imperialism experiment of the Thirties culminated in the defeat and devastation of their nation and their culture, and until such time as the historical revisionists win out (which they may well do - apparently the Pearl Harbour attack was 'provoked' by US insensitivity...)., we may not see mass market kits of Japanese troops bayonetting their way through China and Singapore...
That said, many Japanese kit manufacturers have huge arsenals of planes and boats (sorry, ships...) in their catalogues, and even a few AFVs and artillery pieces - but figures of Grunt San are few indeed.
Dunno, but it might be a reluctance to bring up what Grandpa did during the war...
$0.02
youngc
Joined: June 05, 2007
KitMaker: 2,166 posts
Armorama: 1,080 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 11:05 PM UTC
Here is a list of all that I can think of:
Japanese 1:35 figure kits available:
DML Japanese Army infantry
Tamiaya Japanese Army infantry
Airfix Japanese infantry (1:32)
Miniature Park Japanese tank crew
Fine Molds IJA tank crew #1
Fine Molds IJA tank crew #2
Warrior "Banzai"
Warrior Japanese tank crew, summer dress
Warrior Japanese tank commander, winter dress
Warrior Japanese anti-tank team
Warrior Japanese infantry #1
Warrior Japanese infantry #2
Warrior Japanese Officer and Mortarman
Verlinden Japanese Tanker WWII
Verlinden Japanese Officer WW2
Allarmi Japanese Inf.
Verlinden also mixed Japanese figures with USMC figures in some of their kits:
Verlinden US Marine & Japanese Officers
Verlinden USMC and Japanese POW
Coming soon:
Fine Molds Japanese infantry
Taisho Japanese tank crew
Master Box Ltd. Japanese infantry
I am 'happy' with the number of Japanese figures available, although I'm very grateful for Master Box promising a plastic kit, of which there are few. However, it's Aussie infantry I really want to see, produced by MB in particular!
See here: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/3252
Actually I quite like Warrior's offerings. Heaps of detail, great poses!
Japanese 1:35 figure kits available:
DML Japanese Army infantry
Tamiaya Japanese Army infantry
Airfix Japanese infantry (1:32)
Miniature Park Japanese tank crew
Fine Molds IJA tank crew #1
Fine Molds IJA tank crew #2
Warrior "Banzai"
Warrior Japanese tank crew, summer dress
Warrior Japanese tank commander, winter dress
Warrior Japanese anti-tank team
Warrior Japanese infantry #1
Warrior Japanese infantry #2
Warrior Japanese Officer and Mortarman
Verlinden Japanese Tanker WWII
Verlinden Japanese Officer WW2
Allarmi Japanese Inf.
Verlinden also mixed Japanese figures with USMC figures in some of their kits:
Verlinden US Marine & Japanese Officers
Verlinden USMC and Japanese POW
Coming soon:
Fine Molds Japanese infantry
Taisho Japanese tank crew
Master Box Ltd. Japanese infantry
I am 'happy' with the number of Japanese figures available, although I'm very grateful for Master Box promising a plastic kit, of which there are few. However, it's Aussie infantry I really want to see, produced by MB in particular!
Quoted Text
...or an infantry set with a knee mortar
See here: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/3252
Quoted Text
Warrior wants on average $15 per figure, and frankly no offense to anyone here working for Warrior ... they're just not that good. They lack detail and seem lifeless, looking more like a store mannequins. I'd personally expect better for what they ask for them.
Actually I quite like Warrior's offerings. Heaps of detail, great poses!
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 03:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
, and until such time as the historical revisionists win out (which they may well do - apparently the Pearl Harbour attack was 'provoked' by US insensitivity...)
Didn't you get the memo, everything is America's fault, everything ... somehow I'm sure we are responsible for the fall of Roman Empire.
Quoted Text
Actually I quite like Warrior's offerings. Heaps of detail, great poses!
And I don't that's why we have choices. I think some of the dimensions are off.
Chas, thanks for the links, but that is nearly every offering there is, which pales to the ETO offerings. So you see my point, hopefully.
Quoted Text
Unless I am way off the mark here, most common wealth countries had very similar uniforms during WW2
True but that doesn't make up for the lack in quality and quantity of choices or the sparseness of other nations involved. And while unless you are a rivet counter which I'm not, the proper placement of a pocket shouldn't be is big issue on a 1/35 scale figure.
Quoted Text
So now that we nailed the root of our displeasure with the lack of PTO forces in modelling... What shall we do???
Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Now if a company has a lot of capital (cash) they make a machine, a 3 Dimensional Scanner in which the name of it escapes me now, in which you can dress someone up in period uniforms, equipment and weapons. Scan it in 3D import it into a computer, remove undercuts the bane of mold makers and scale it down to what ever size you need. Then via a laser modeler you fire 2 lasers on a Y and Z axis into a silicone or Acrylic gel that hardens anyplace the lasers intersects, giving you a 100% to scale master model of any given form. This is UV curing.
You might have seen something similar to this in Acrylic blocks where they make a 3D scan and create a image in a solid block called a Photo Crystal. It's the same principle but the block is liquid and the resulting internal image is solid.
If you are bored here is a video of just how it works, granted this is the solid block, but the same concept applies to the liquid.
(I have no affiliation with this company, they may suck for all I know.)
http://www.crystalmagic.com/user/lasersim.MSW_0002.wmv
A life size scanner is where the big bucks are at, the imager/engraver can be had for around US$10K or less. Like I said it's a big investment, with huge profit opportunity. As it removes the lengthy and time consuming sculpting process.
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 03:53 AM UTC
Running the risk of injecting a negative note into what is a VERY interesting thread, here are my (personal) observations:
1) Any manufacturer nowadays has to concentrate on two similar and a third (very different) marketplaces. Broadly speaking, Europe/North America can be lumped together, the third, Asia is a very different place. There ISN'T a great interest in Japanese subjects - the dominant is German. That's why people may scratch their heads at DML, in my opinion, they are correct - they'll sell more in the emerging markets of China and the established Japanese market.
2) Companies like Pit-Road ARE doing well, however, their models are in the 'no-man's land' between mass-produced plastic kits and the enthusiast's market. They aren't (or I certainly doubt it) selling as many units as Tamiya, AFV Club or DML.
3) Until the 'Mass-market' kit production arrives to Japanese (Armor) subjects, there WILL be a reluctance to enter into this area. Yeas, Masterbox ARE doing 1.5 Japanese sets (1 Set with 4 figures and another which includes two Japanese and two USMC figures)..
4) IS there as much 'Diversity' in Japanese Infantry Uniforms as in those of Germany? I get the feeling that there isn't (no heavily documented Winter Gear, Desert Uniforms or an evolution in uniforms) ...
Not being negative, simply attempting to present the view as a manufacturer would see it...
1) Any manufacturer nowadays has to concentrate on two similar and a third (very different) marketplaces. Broadly speaking, Europe/North America can be lumped together, the third, Asia is a very different place. There ISN'T a great interest in Japanese subjects - the dominant is German. That's why people may scratch their heads at DML, in my opinion, they are correct - they'll sell more in the emerging markets of China and the established Japanese market.
2) Companies like Pit-Road ARE doing well, however, their models are in the 'no-man's land' between mass-produced plastic kits and the enthusiast's market. They aren't (or I certainly doubt it) selling as many units as Tamiya, AFV Club or DML.
3) Until the 'Mass-market' kit production arrives to Japanese (Armor) subjects, there WILL be a reluctance to enter into this area. Yeas, Masterbox ARE doing 1.5 Japanese sets (1 Set with 4 figures and another which includes two Japanese and two USMC figures)..
4) IS there as much 'Diversity' in Japanese Infantry Uniforms as in those of Germany? I get the feeling that there isn't (no heavily documented Winter Gear, Desert Uniforms or an evolution in uniforms) ...
Not being negative, simply attempting to present the view as a manufacturer would see it...
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefJoined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 04:39 AM UTC
The reason I brought up common wealth troops was more in answer to Rudi, and a way of making Chas's dream a possible reality. As I see it if you make something with a broader interest for the end user, you increase the number of units sold due to that broader interest and thus it makes it economical for the manufacturer, because the manufacturer is there to make money,
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 05:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Running the risk of injecting a negative note into what is a VERY interesting thread, here are my (personal) observations:
1) Any manufacturer nowadays has to concentrate on two similar and a third (very different) marketplaces. Broadly speaking, Europe/North America can be lumped together, the third, Asia is a very different place. There ISN'T a great interest in Japanese subjects - the dominant is German. That's why people may scratch their heads at DML, in my opinion, they are correct - they'll sell more in the emerging markets of China and the established Japanese market.
2) Companies like Pit-Road ARE doing well, however, their models are in the 'no-man's land' between mass-produced plastic kits and the enthusiast's market. They aren't (or I certainly doubt it) selling as many units as Tamiya, AFV Club or DML.
3) Until the 'Mass-market' kit production arrives to Japanese (Armor) subjects, there WILL be a reluctance to enter into this area. Yeas, Masterbox ARE doing 1.5 Japanese sets (1 Set with 4 figures and another which includes two Japanese and two USMC figures)..
4) IS there as much 'Diversity' in Japanese Infantry Uniforms as in those of Germany? I get the feeling that there isn't (no heavily documented Winter Gear, Desert Uniforms or an evolution in uniforms) ...
Not being negative, simply attempting to present the view as a manufacturer would see it...
Jim thanks for the reply.
To answer ...
1. Availability dictates the market. If all you can get is German or American then that's what you do or you do nothing at all. To briefly change subjects, I'd like to model some of the ships I served on in the Corps but there are very, very few LST's, LPH's, LHA's etc type green cargo carries models, most if any are 1/700 which I dislike and of those they're resin which isn't cheap ... see JAG Models. Whereas if I wanted a Battleship or Carrier I'm in 1/350 plastic heaven. But I digress.
2. Again, availability it is far easier to go to your LHS or even online retailer and get Tamiya, AFV Club or DML than to get Pit-Road. Also name recognition, many modeler know the former, more so than the latter. This is mainly the case with newer modeler as most of them (mainly in the west) will likely not know or at least not many know very well, companies like RPM, Arlanger, ICM and about a 1000 others.
3. True, refer to item 1.
4. No, but there is diversity in poses and MOS's, you can only manipulate a model so much, so many times to change a pose and keep it natural looking at some point you venture into the deformed. And you can only mix and match so much, but then you end up with boxes of body parts that just don't work.
Perhaps, as some companies have done with American and German figures they can ofter body parts only, sprue's of arms, legs, torso and heads that could be mix and matched without the need to buy a entire kit to get a couple of arms or leg.
As you know if you do a dio and it has 20 or 30 figures in it, you are pretty much forced into ETO just for the availability of figures. You would be hard pressed to achieve such a task in the PTO with a redundancy in figures which IMHO would just not look good.
Example I'm starting (planning) a section of Tank Column dio set in either North Africa or Sicily if I decide to tackle my idea in full, which is about 4 feet long and a foot wide you can place several piece of equipment and dozens of figures in it. Currently I'm working on Patton's Modified M-3 Scout car, actually I'm working on the second one as I really didn't like the first one. But there are quite a few figures to work from. Now if I wanted to build a sizable dio in the PTO it would be sparely populated do to availability of figures. And as you know the PTO was more figures (infantry) than Armor so it's ironic that there are more Armor models for the PTO than there are figure models. Go figure?
EDIT: What started this entire idea was the concept of building a PTO dio of Chinese infantry rescuing American airmen from the Japanese after the crash of a Dolittle Raider B-25 and I found a amazing lack of PTO figures. I plan things way out so while I'm working on one, I'm planing another.
taesung
Vendor
Joined: February 14, 2004
KitMaker: 493 posts
Armorama: 340 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 05:48 AM UTC
Gents
With all due respect, what is the point of screaming and yelling for WW2 IJA kits, etc. here online?
Manufacturers get the sales number from the dealers and distributors whom you buy things from.
And where do the dealers get their numbers from? Your wallet. Let's not point the figure at the manufacturers
but to your own kit stash.
And why does the number of kits have to be in proportion to the reality during the war? If it's so, then
we should have more US GI truck drivers and Russian Asian infantries than others. I believe it should
only represent the popularity of the subject. And I also believe that the availability of WW2 IJA kits, for
instance, is in proportion to its popularity.
In most cases in 1/35 scale, figures, PEs and all the stuff are after-market items. The main is the AFV kits.
This is what dictates the rest. If there are new IJA tanks coming out from a major manufacturer, you know
there will be IJA resin tankers coming out from at least a few companies.
As for the price of resin figures..., If anyone out there who think it can be cheaper than what it is now, please
show us how it's done (other than outsourcing to China). Also, If anyone out there who think it's possible to keep
the manufacturing cost down in a time like this (other than start using cheaper material), please feel free to share it.
Both, my resin and silicone vendors, notified me of price increase when the oil price was out of control. Now the oil
price is way low, but there's no price decrease notice in my mail box. I mean, what the fück? (excuse me)
But that's the way it is.
I know there are major manufacturers who play with MSRP, and that's wrong. But when things are getting more
expensive these days, how can anyone expect this hobby to be an exception?
Just my 2 worthless US cents...
With all due respect, what is the point of screaming and yelling for WW2 IJA kits, etc. here online?
Manufacturers get the sales number from the dealers and distributors whom you buy things from.
And where do the dealers get their numbers from? Your wallet. Let's not point the figure at the manufacturers
but to your own kit stash.
And why does the number of kits have to be in proportion to the reality during the war? If it's so, then
we should have more US GI truck drivers and Russian Asian infantries than others. I believe it should
only represent the popularity of the subject. And I also believe that the availability of WW2 IJA kits, for
instance, is in proportion to its popularity.
In most cases in 1/35 scale, figures, PEs and all the stuff are after-market items. The main is the AFV kits.
This is what dictates the rest. If there are new IJA tanks coming out from a major manufacturer, you know
there will be IJA resin tankers coming out from at least a few companies.
As for the price of resin figures..., If anyone out there who think it can be cheaper than what it is now, please
show us how it's done (other than outsourcing to China). Also, If anyone out there who think it's possible to keep
the manufacturing cost down in a time like this (other than start using cheaper material), please feel free to share it.
Both, my resin and silicone vendors, notified me of price increase when the oil price was out of control. Now the oil
price is way low, but there's no price decrease notice in my mail box. I mean, what the fück? (excuse me)
But that's the way it is.
I know there are major manufacturers who play with MSRP, and that's wrong. But when things are getting more
expensive these days, how can anyone expect this hobby to be an exception?
Just my 2 worthless US cents...
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 06:16 AM UTC
Taesung seems to have pretty much summed-up how I feel about this area as well. Apart from Alan's campaign for British Softskins, i've not been that enthusiastic about these 'write-in' campaigns at all. Simply put, the average modeler DOESN'T (unfortunately) see beyond what THEY want - commercial considerations are what drives this hobby. Most manufacturers are sufficiently hard-headed and have a clear idea on what WILL (and won't) sell. That's not saying suggestions aren't reasonable, just sometimes though, they get (commercially) VERY unrealistic.
Please, don't confuse sentiment with commercial viability...
Please, don't confuse sentiment with commercial viability...
martyncrowther
Joined: September 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,548 posts
Armorama: 1,407 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 07:25 AM UTC
What Chas is doing is trying to make a difference to this hooby for good. I dont get it if people are moaning about figures why don't they make their own! Teasung started sculpting because he wasn't really happy about the tamiya figures.
Its good to see companies taking interest in stuff like that. Its my opinion but many people prefer German because it was interesting and their tanks were good. Thats what people say anyway.
my 50 pence worth any way
Martyn
Its good to see companies taking interest in stuff like that. Its my opinion but many people prefer German because it was interesting and their tanks were good. Thats what people say anyway.
my 50 pence worth any way
Martyn
taesung
Vendor
Joined: February 14, 2004
KitMaker: 493 posts
Armorama: 340 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 07:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Simply put, the average modeler DOESN'T (unfortunately) see beyond what THEY want - commercial
considerations are what drives this hobby. Most manufacturers are sufficiently hard-headed and have a clear
idea on what WILL (and won't) sell. That's not saying suggestions aren't reasonable, just sometimes though,
they get (commercially) VERY unrealistic.
Please, don't confuse sentiment with commercial viability...
It's exactly like what you all do at work. Small or large, all manufacturers are trying to make a profit at all cost.
If it mean "all German stuff in 2009", so be it. It's no fun and game (certainly not a hobby) on this side of the fence.
During a difficult time like this, many small guys like myself should be thankful just to break even and not go under.
And I sincerely thank you all for it and for the support!
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 10:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
But when things are getting more expensive these days, how can anyone expect this hobby to be an exception?
Simply put, it's just that ... a hobby, not a requirement for living. When times get tight the first thing to go are hobbies and other recreational expenditures. So for a manufacturer to still viable you must remain competitive. Now I haven't heard any "screaming and yelling" what I have heard and stated myself is a valid observation of a gap in the market place. So what's the point, well it would seem some manufacturers, vendors and distributors read these threads, wouldn't you say?
So folks say there is no demand, ok then why is there a thread? Why has it been mentioned numerous times on various forums over the years? Must be a reason.
Taesung, as far as your vendors not going down in price after the fall of oil, well just like my vendors they're profit taking and they'll cut their own throat for doing it. I'm not in the model business, I'm into building 1/1 scale and I've dropped several vendors for price gouging and I'll drop more. There is always someone else out there up and coming, wanting your business and your money ... it's business 101 you have the money, they want it, you set the terms. Isn't that what the customer does? Decides who to buy from, what to buy and what they'll pay and if it's too much they'll say no.
I don't think anybody really know if there is a wide spread demand or not for a more extensive line of PTO figures because the consumers oddly enough tend to buy what is available and doesn't give much thought to whats not there. Out of sight, out of mind. But that's just my opinion.
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefJoined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 10:41 AM UTC
Dave we are always being told that the Asian market sets the demand as the biggest consumer base, and German subjects are what they want. I have no way of disputing that, and so large areas of operations are poorly supported by the manufacturers. We can shout and yell all we want, but until the Asian market wants something other than the German war machine we will have to wait or find alternative sources. In some ways I believe the worm is turning as we are starting to see more modern and Allied vehicles produced, so we may yet see some of what you are after.
SSgt1Shot
Joined: December 01, 2004
KitMaker: 535 posts
Armorama: 161 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 11:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Dave we are always being told that the Asian market sets the demand as the biggest consumer base, and German subjects are what they want. I have no way of disputing that, and so large areas of operations are poorly supported by the manufacturers. We can shout and yell all we want, but until the Asian market wants something other than the German war machine we will have to wait or find alternative sources. In some ways I believe the worm is turning as we are starting to see more modern and Allied vehicles produced, so we may yet see some of what you are after.
True, perhaps some cottage industry will spring up that will satisfy the void. Interesting that the Asian market doesn't want to model their own military past. Ok so they didn't win ... but neither did the Germans.
Tarok
Joined: July 28, 2004
KitMaker: 10,889 posts
Armorama: 3,245 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 11:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
but neither did the Germans.
How many German's do you know modelling Nazi subjects? OT, but reminds me of a Faulty Towers (I think it was FT) phrase "Don't mention the war".
Besides, the Japanese and German cultures are completely different - and the way they choose to treat the past will be different. Just as in South Africa, the new South African Defence Force do not recognise the country's military history prior to 1994... there were no wars, no one died
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