this started off as a post in the thread for armor campaign suggestions but I felt it was something that should be organised by all the folks here on all the forums.
"There seems to be the usual interest in the start of a campaign, but something must be properly organised first. There are now too many suggestions for the next campaign, and too many running alongside each other. The idea of the campaigns was to get people building, but now they are adding stress, trying to finish one or more at a time.
With the amount of campaigns going on at the moment, there is something almost to suit everybody ..... right down to what they generally build anyway. Is this counterproductive? I think the campaigns should be limited to 2 at a time and run for 3 months. this would mean 8 campaigns a year. (or even upped to 12 a year when using 2 at a time over 2 months). If the 2 running in a particular 3 (2) months are not what you would genarally build, maybe it would push people into building something different.
I think there should be some structure set up immediately to govern the campaigns running, where the agreed campaigns are voted in. And if a structure like the one above was used, if armor was campaigned in first section, it would not be in the next section, so people might be persuaded to try something new. Maybe something like this
january, febuary and march
ships, armor up to the end of WW2
april, may and june
figures, aircraft
july august september
modern armor (post ww2). dios
october, november and december
figures, sci-fi (could include the twighlight 2000 idea)

Reasons for my thoughts on this are, when the first dio campaign started there was so much entusiaism but by the second, a lot of it had died. Constant armor campaigns doesnt promote experimentation (outside its own field). There would be time from one dio campaign to the next to vote a new campaign, have everything ready, kits bought etc etc for its startup. All these items are used as examples only!
I love the campaigns, they are a great idea, but i want to participate in as many as possible, get involved with better discussions like in the first dio campaign (this has to be the template for running a successful campaign)share more stages etc etc. At the moment Im in the figure campaign and can only finish one of my 2 proposed figures, cold war ... almost finished and i pulled out completely from the dio campaign. And from posts i have read, Im not the only one caught up like this.
These are just my raves, rants, feelings, suggestions etc onthe subject at the moment. Does anybody else feel the same or is everybody happy with the way things are at the moment!!

My Irish friend,
I can't agree more : I refer to the many comments I made on this subject.
I drafted a number of "campaign" rules early on to get this campaign thing properly organized, but they never got approved and posted. Maybe I should pick up the thread again.
Campaigns are too nice to let them bleed to death as they are doing now. I'll get back to you. I'm still at the office now and have little time to spend on the issue.
Ciao
Jan


PS : you wouldn't know any typical Irish recipes involving pork, would you ?

Da Wooöoolf

This is a very good idea. Having some time off between campaigns would certainly be more productive, in terms that everybody who's interested in a particular campaign will have time for research, buy the kits and/or accessories, read more about they're selcted subject etc. On the other hand, better organisation and preparation before the campaign makes more sense. Also, I believe that the running time for a specific campaign should not be fixed on 2-3 months for specific projects. The reason for this is, even though very rare it might happen, in the event of a FAMO or any other large kit campaign, when the building, painting and finishing the model takes longer than one where let's say a Sturm III is built.
This is just my input on this. At last, I totally agree with Plasticbattle on the genral guidelines.
Happy modelling!

On one hand i fully agree with you, but on the other I don't know if it's actually possible to limit somehow the number of campaigns. If you think that we are more than 2000 fellas (I mean in Armorama) it means that we have at least 20-25 different big (and quite different) modelling interest areas. I had a look at the people enlisted in the various campaigns:

Cold War Cook-off: 36
Battle of Britain: 16
Small-n-big: 36
Barbarossa 2003: 56
Aerodrome: 9

the numbers are not huge compared to the whole Armorama's users base, and the most of the people is enlisted in more than one campaign. I think that I never spent so much time in the hobby focusing on targets as since I joined Armorama, and not jumping from a kit to the other often packing them back or seting them aside partially done on a shelf.
Yes I'd look to partecipate to more than the two I'm currently on but is also a matter of how much time you can commit yourself to work on the models. Another downside of limiting the campaign limit is that at some point, in case of excess of campaign ideas, someone will have to choose which campaigns will actually take place...
If I have to choose between the two methods i think that the "creative chaos" will win with a very narrow margin. Anyway I'm prepared to stick to the rules if the community will decide to go for the "regulated" approach.
Ciao

I agree. Who wants the job as Campaign Manager with the responsibility of telling people when and whether thay can start a campaign? I will leave it to this person how best to setup this process and try to support them as best I can with changes to the site (both from a visable and administrative stand-point).

I do think however there is room enough to have multiple campaigns ongoing at one time. Having a Warship campaign is for those on the site that enjoy building warships. And that group should not have to wait 9 months while other campaigns are going on. It is the responsibility of the modeler to only join those campaigns he/she is truly interested in and thinks he/she has the time to work on. Just my 2cents on that part.

Thanks,
Jim

Plastic:

I appreciate your comments and those of the other posters on the campaign issues. It is obvious you have put a lot of thought into this issue and have written very clearly about it here.

Personally I don't experience pressure by participating in the various campaigns here on the site. Every Armorama modeler has the opportunity to evaluate their available time for model building and their interest in a particular campaign, before joining. Based on their evaluation, the modeler has the flexibility to decide whether they should or should not participate in a campaign.

I like the campaign varieties offered on the site at this time. I have recently completed a Cold War Cook Off build, and have purchased a kit in anticipation of the Barb build scheduled to begin shortly. So for me the current campaign treatment at the site is ok.

However I am all in favor of any ideas that continue to improve the site for all of us and appreciate the comments you have offered here in your post.

Thanks.


STeve

Hey Guys!

I agree that the Campaigns needs to have an organized struction. However, I dont feel its nessessary to have a specific time of the year for a certain subject, why should one group have to wait, when basically they dont have anything to do with the rest of the campaigns. It is up to the modelers to make their decisions and choose their priorities as to which campaign(s) they decide to join.

As for an organized struction, I would say that the moderators of each "group" such as armor, warships, aircraft, figures etc etc should be the ones who are in the know. If a member approaches the moderators with a campaign idea, they should talk to each other to see whats going on and what other campaigns are in the works. Ideas or thoughts abot this?

I dont feel that there should be a restriction as of numbers and specific "seasons" for a certain subject as each subjects is different from others and some take longer then others.

Hi guys, just my 2 cents. As far as I can see we only have 4 official campaigns running right now. Cold war (armor), BOB (aircraft), Small and big (figures) and Aerodrome (dio), with a very large Barbarossa build starting later this month. To me that seems to be a nice mix, something for everyone. There is always going to be alot of talk about new campaigns, but that doesn't mean they are all going to see the light of day. I am sure everyone has their own ideas about a campaign they would like to see. But the ideas that strike a chord with many of the members should make it to a real campaign.
Sure the Splash and warship campaign may not have been as supported with entries and updates as one would like, but I don't see a need to put limits and too much structure on the campaigns. Those things just happen, people get busy or lose interest, you can't do much about it. The broader the appeal of the campaign and the more people involved and decicated to it the better but like Jim said, I would hate to be the one to tell the 10 hardcore WW2 polish amphibious jeep fans that they can't have a campaign.

I also do not agree that there is pressure for modelers to participate in any or all of the Campaigns. A Campaign Manager would be nice, and I'd volunteer for it, but I don't think any creative inspiration should be cornered into a set time of the year or a set block of genre subjects. I like Anders' suggestion by putting the Moderators up to the challenge of coordinating Campaign Ideas and Schedules.

No one has to participate in a Campaign - it is a call for "fun". If you opt out - no problem. Something else will come around. If you want to stretch your skills then pick one that interests you. If not, no one will look at you any differently.

The whole idea is for fun - the more you legislate "fun" - the less "fun" it becomes. In my humble opinion naturally.

Gunnie

I saw this post when it hit and have been thinking quite a bit about it and the previous threads about Campaigns.

First off - Campaigns are GREAT. I'm a huge fan.

One thing I have seen happen to the campaigns is that they have become equivalent to a 'build'. I guess I should define a 'build', a build to me is a group of members all agree to build the same kit or subject in an effort to help each other and gain experience etc.

The Window On War campaign had a difference to it, there was a winner. The camaraderie was far and above the best thing we all helped each other and I never felt one lick of pressure (except from myself). Now the Splash campaign has a popular vote piece to it, again - a defined winner.

As far as participation in these events (builds or campaigns) I put pressure on myself to join and have stretched myself thin. There isn't any pressure other than me to join, to build, or to withdraw.
I have seen and experienced this and I'll be honest - I don't have an answer. Life gets in the way, we decide to do to many at a time and so it goes.

Here is a suggestion (don't burn me at the steak for it).

What if we limit a full campaign to one with a popular vote portion. And because of the effort it will take to administer that limit the number of concurrent campaigns and the total per year.
Now to keep the build theme going there may be an area for builds. The build rules would be looser and more wide open.

Just a suggestion. Outside of a defined shift there really isn't a clear way around the process. Just monitor your own enlisting (I will be from now on) and withdraw if you need to.

Great replies guys. Maybe thats all this matter needs is a good constructive discussion. I was just suggesting something that I thought might help, but from your points of view, I can see more thought on the subject is needed. Indeed the example of the warhip builders having to wait 9 months is a bit much. Maybe with some discussion we can come up with something that is productive and is a win-win situation for all. A campaign manager would be a good idea and maybe filter in some organisation to the whole process. Its not that I feel it must be run by the rule book......... total opposite actually. I feel there have been some great ideas talked about recently and I personally would love to participate in some/most of them.

The sad thing is, and where I feel needs some input, is at the end of a campaign, how all the excitement seems to fade away. Before its finished everybody is already talking about the next campaign and the present one is almost forgotten.
I can only refer to the first dio campaign, and all the excitement in the last few weeks as the finished and near finished work started to appear. This was the success for me.
I second Gunnie´s nomination as campaign manager, and am willing to help him or whoever is elected as much as I can!

Great reply Plastic! Some great discussion has resulted from your original post---well done!

I also offer my assistance to any campaign manager/managers that may be designated as a result of this discussion.

I hit Armorama a number of times everyday and really appreciate the site that Jim has put together. If I can help make it better, count me in.

Steve


ps: Gunnie has done a great job in the Cold War Kickoff Campaign by the way.

Hey, I say that if you are overwhelmed, just don't sign up for too many campaigns. I like the variety and not everyone wants to do every campaign. Also, with 2000+ members the more variety and choices the better. Well, thats my two cents. Have fun, and Happy modeling.

OK, here's my 2 cents!!!!! Rules, we don't need no stinking Rules!!!! Actually, If you actually tried starting a campaign you'll find some rather interesting rules, like try and schedule it when no others are going or just one or two other are going, and my favorite: You must have at least 10 people to start the campaign!!!
Other things I like is that most of us here Don't want anything more than the support and adoration of their peers. I feel the same way. But, if some person were to say there had to be prize we can easily put one up. but I have to ask why!!!
Guess what I'm getting at is who really cares if its nothing more than a glorified Group build to see who can make the best Hawker Hurricane. Isn't this site supposed to represent the best parts of this grand Hobby. Friendship, building and FUN.
On that not I find Myself having to vote NO to more rules being made concerning campaigns. Those 2 are enough for anyone to worry about. I myself feel it is my responsibilty to watch my time and enter only what I can, It obvious to me others feel the sameway.
Lastly about the excitment factor. When the winter Dio contest came around there were about 1500 people here on armorama. When I enlisted just over 1700 were here. If you go back to the campaign posts you'd see about 50 people as regular posters. Let me point out now we are fast approaching 2500; if not already past that mark, with about 100 regular posters in the forums. Most of the people here think great things about the work done here, and we post what we think of the work done here. Excitment is there!!!! The encouragment is there, Heck my own building has greatly improved since I joined.
So on that note lets keep it the same as before.......PPPPPPPlease Eddie???????
STUG

Stug, cannot agree more!!!
Ciao

I must say that I agree with Stug !

I agree with Stug too. He got some good points.

:-) I think the campaigns are great. I personally don't think theat rules are the answer and a ribbon is sufficiant reward. What I would like to see though Is something like a campaign board ( similar to the rivet review board, but for posting in progress pics of campaign builds) I tried to encourage members of the BfB campaign to post regular updates on the RRB, but so far only Stug has (I will be soon). The reason for this was to show other members what we were doing and to create more interest in the campaigns. I also hoped it would generate lots of discussion. Yes you can visit the campaigns area and see progress but to check up on everyones build takes a long time (don't get me wrong the campaigns page is very good) I just think that It would be good to have in progress on the "Front page". I suppose the the RRB/CIP (campaign in progress) could be combined. The only problem then is hosting pics?
I think that you will always have new campaigns trying to start, either because members not in them see the fun and want to get in. Or those in them are having fun and want it to continue :-) A campaign for each discipline, at one time is not overboard. That would also give plenty of choice and a chance for anyone to model outside the comfort zone :-) I will be trying a figure and a diorama :-)
Mal

I am a relative newbie to this site and lag way behind most of the guys here regarding modelling skills but am taking part in my first campaign (BfB) and am really enjoying having to meet a deadline. The reason that I have only taken part in one campaign so far is that I waited until one came up that interested me and allowed me to build a kit that I wanted to build. What I am getting at is that if the number of campaigns running at once was limited in number it could have been the case that I wouldn't have found one that I wanted to participate in. The thing I like is that there is a certain amount of satisfaction if the deadline is met, and the eagerness to see the other people's finished projects.
If there is a decision made to limit the numbers of campaigns running concurrently could it not be possible to open out the types of subject so that there is more scope per campaign? For example instead of a campaign involving, say, armour in the battle of France 1940 could it not be simply a campaign involving every subject participating in the said battle? There are already seperate categories within most of the campaigns regarding building armour, soft skin or diorama. These could be replaced with categories for vehicle, aircraft, figure and ship as and where aplicable. So said campaign would let armour guys build panzers or Renaults etc, Aircraft guys build Messerschmitts or Hurricanes etc Ship builders to build something involved in the Dunkirk evacuation and figure builders to build, well, any figure serving in the battle. It may allow more people to enlist per campaign instead of having to wait possibly months before a campaign came along which allowed them to participate. But it would also continue the idea of building to a certain theme.
Please feel free to shoot me down in flames as there are probably many reasons why my ideas wouldn't be either feesable or popular, I just put it forward as a point of view on the discussion.

Please see the new poll I just put up on the main homepage. If you're set on a particular focus theme then click on the "POLLS" text next to the poll you see to find it.

Thanks,
Jim

Hopefully I didnt stir up a bees nest when starting this thread. And rules were the last thing I suggested or wanted. My aim was to have a better organisation of the whole campaigns, so more people would, not only get involved, but be active throughout the campaigns. The example I posted earlier wasnt meant to be "how it should be", but more of an idea how things could be organised. Obviously it needs more thought, but the reason behind this was, that new campaigns would not start up when something similar was already running..... meaning that some might try to be involved in both and finish neither. Some of my feelings are coming from my own experience recently.
There have been a lot of campaigns suggested recently and all are great ideas, but whos to say what should be done first, when, etc? When 10 people get a new idea should they just go ahead a run with it or wait to the already running campaigns are finished? Should they then have to wait in a queue because so-and-so has already organised similar campaigns. Maybe just some organisation strategy would be helpful.

Frank (and all),
I appriciate your putting this issue forward. I think all the discussion is healthy. I probably wasn't as complete on the poll as I should have been as the option I would probably check woutd be "Needs 'some' work". Meaning Ihink it still needs some final touches and also the follow-through of all those involved. Part of the problem with the campaigns is that they can be a lot of work to keep up with. I am hopeful that the new Photo Post software that should be up on the site soon should probably fill the void currently where my home-built campaigns area leaves off. I am foreseeing the campaign section as more of the staging ground and homebase of the campaign in the future with the actual posting and comments being done in the forum or on the Photo Post boards.

As to the rest. No easy answers. Jan has from early on been championing the idea of more control over the scheduling of campaigns. And while I agree with him and you in principle about trying to keep the campaigns from overlapping or getting too numerous, it's harder to do actually accomplish this as it means someone has to play the heavy and dictate who gets to run a campaign and when. My original thought was to have a committee of 3 or so people that would do this. But that didn't quite materialize as i had planned. Basically as I hinted at in my earlier post I need someone (or a group of people) to take the lead on this because I am too over-burdened as it is to add campaign scheduling and management to the list. This hopfully is not coming off like sour grapes. I would love to see the campaigns really rock-n-roll, but it's going to take some serious work to get if fully organized and regulated. And that's about it from me...

Cheers,
Jim

Okay - I'll take a crack at this. I'll need a couple of willing volunteers to help me setup a method for creating a Campaign Board where we can keep these wonderful ideas and times when the participants best feel they'd work with the other activities going on in-Site. Then, I'll just need healthy opinions as we move forward to creating a model system that works for everyone.

Gunnie

/me steps forward.

Okay! TwistedFate is one. Need a second...

Gunnie