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Why Don't (or WON'T) YOU Contribute?
18Bravo
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 03:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Flood or no flood, it's been a year. So I feel as if I'm wasting my time.


I cannot speak to whatever specific issues Robert Skipper (Bravo18) has reference a flood but I will post the change log from the latest review of one of his walk-around cd I worked on:

Shaun



No, that flood comment isn't directed to anyone on this site. It pertains to something going on with the Primeportal folks last year while I was in Iraq. When someone asks you to take the time to do them a favor, and it doesn't show up after almost a year, it doesn't seem as if it was important to them.
It's all good brother.
sweaver
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Kentucky, United States
Joined: April 19, 2007
KitMaker: 759 posts
Armorama: 410 posts
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 03:20 PM UTC
We all have our reasons, but the reason I haven't submitted reviews is twofold.

1. I don't get all that many new kits

2. Even when I do, I don't feel I have the expertise necessary to fairly review the subject. Basically, I don't want to miss some huge detail that can make or break the kit. I am fairly familiar with the subjects I build, but not as much as Gino is with modern US armor, for example.

I have never felt any misgivings about posting my work or questions in the forums, however. The membership has always been extraordinarily helpful.

Why have I never submitted a feature? Time, mainly. My T-34/76 has been published, but that was done by Henk using DMoM pictures, a surprise I appreciated greatly. Now if any staff member wants to publish my Ardennes King Tiger from a recent DMoM, they are more than welcome.

So, like many others have said, I think that it is time and percieved profiecency that affect submissions.

Just my $0.02,
sweaver
BigfootV
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Colorado, United States
Joined: December 24, 2005
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 03:32 PM UTC
Hey Gang,

Look,
If a truck driver from Colorado, who's out on the road for 14-31 days at a crack and running around the U.S. can do two kit reviews in one month, plus the build blogs, then what's the challange?? Granted they were the old kits, but I did them.

Yes, I had my doubt about posting them, and yes I got some flak, but again they got done. The point is that if you don't make the effort......... Time, there's plenty of it, you have to make the time.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

c5flies
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California, United States
Joined: October 21, 2007
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 06:11 PM UTC
Just a few extra items I'd like to add to all of the above:

Build logs are not required. An in-box review is just that, a review of what's in the box. A build log will most certainly add to the review and give an all around view of the item, but it is not absolutely required. The only time we push for a build is when it's a vendor/manufacturer supplied sample.

Writing a review, at least for me, is not an easy task. But on the other hand, I find it makes the build more enjoyable. I'm 'forced' to do a bit of research and closely examine the contents, something I may not otherwise do. In fact, after a review it seems I can't wait to get it on the bench and start building, and if I do a build log it pretty much makes me finish it instead of delegating it to the 'I'll finish that later' pile

As Shaun stated, we're not ogres...in fact we're pretty nice guys (at least we think so, and keep telling ourselves that!). If you have any questions and/or comments about reviews, feel free to contact Shaun (aka keenan) or myself by Private Message or using our staff email which can be found in our profiles or the 'About Us' tab in the Armorama header.

This site is about you, filled with a bunch of great people with a full range of areas to participate.....enjoy!
AlanL
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 12, 2005
KitMaker: 14,499 posts
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Posted: Friday, April 17, 2009 - 07:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

A beginner's nursery area is a terrible idea. As Joe Rion says, everyone's opinion is useful.

I actually prefer the contribs of some of those who have lesser skills, who have an off the wall take, or who don't aim for particular "looks" that many aspire to; I also admire those who improvise things and make things out of nothing, even if it means that what is achieved isn't 100% accurate. For example, someone scratching a part out of a tin can is more impressive and certainly more interesting than someone buying the bit mail order and snipping it out of an etched fret - even if the bought part is more accurate. This is just me though.

I sometimes find some of the more "expert" pieces quite dull and can't read them - you know, "I built this bogie first while the second was dry and applied this much pressure with this digit for this many minutes while this particular glue set before moving on to the next in sequence." There's also this implication in some pieces that it was all executed perfectly with no errors or room for improvement. This can make some writers come across as rather superior (and possibly a little economical with the truth).

I hope that this isn't the "standard" that potential writers feel they must meet in order to be taken seriously or respected. Perhaps we could have a little more self-deprecation from some people, and this might make things less intimidating. Terribly British, I know.

Anyway, Scott Espin said it!! "This same topic has been brought up several times here before, and recently I might add." That's that then! This thread should go up in flames, now!!


Hi Matthew,

You should enjoy my atricles then as none of my builds are perfect, and contain most if not all of the elements you mention.

I've just finished cutting the engine out of my T16 as I put it in misalligned and it stuck solid

. After a week of trying to free it up I ended up cutting through the floor of the kit to get it out and start again. This was the result of fixing the front bulkhead first and poor eyesight on my part.

I don't read every build article or blog, like Karl my interest lies in the commonwealth area, so can't comment one way or the other, but i generally find the build articles very useful bring out techniuqes and things I often don't know of or have forgotten about.

As to finishing style, that's up to the individual. There are some styles I like and some I don't but I think that is the same for us all.

From a buider point of view it doesn't matter whether people like you build or not providing you do and I've seen that stated on many an occasion.

If you think something is wrong with a description ask for more clarification on that point. Above all take from the site what is interesting or helpful to you but also remember to give a little back, which is what these forums are all about.

My thoughts anyway.

Cheers

Al



jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 04:47 AM UTC
I welcome the thoughts of those who have posted to this thread. Thre are two significant points though:

1) The 'target' group (i.e. those who aren't, or don't feel they can contribute) have. unfortunately been notable by their absence.

2) It's NOT simply about Reviews - it's about every permanent Article we publish.
slodder
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North Carolina, United States
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 11,718 posts
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Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 07:15 AM UTC
I'd like to come out and say this specifically ..
I'll speak for myself directly I am willing and able to help you out with reviews. Guidance on how to write it, what to write, proof readint, etc.

I know the rest of the staff are very helpful when asked.
dispatcher
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Illinois, United States
Joined: November 04, 2007
KitMaker: 396 posts
Armorama: 325 posts
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 05:27 PM UTC
Jim, the new members may not think they have anything to contribute. Even some of the older members may think the same. I believe Scott may be headed in the right direction. Possably a group that is there to help members start contributing. I remember it seemed like a daunting task to me. I'm still not the best at writing or photography and I may not get much better. Were it not for Bill & James I might have just not done anything, but they helped me. I like Scott am available to help out where I can.
Joe
mvfrog
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California, United States
Joined: August 25, 2008
KitMaker: 369 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 08:19 PM UTC
Jim:

I am relatively new here, but how does one submit a review of a kit, or write an article? What is the process?

Thanks,
Matt
slodder
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North Carolina, United States
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 11,718 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 12:04 AM UTC
Matt,
As far a writing a review here is what I would offer. This is basic and for a review of your own kits/books/tools/paints/diorama products
1. Read a review or two to see what kind of format/sections there are -main body, hi's low's, verdict etc. The body will be your own style and editors will help with it.
2. You can go to the Submissions link then the online form and fill it in. You dont have to be to worried about formatting and titles and such. Your main goal is to write what you want to say.
3. Take pictures to hightlight the main points of the the review. One picture that is required is a 'header' image that can be put at the top of the review. ** Plan ahead if this is going to be a build reveiew. Take pictures along the way.
4. Photos should be emailed to the editor of the site (noted on the submission page.)
5. I would also PM the editor just to let them know you've gone through the process. This can help identify any problems if emails fail or things like that.

For a feature the basics are
The only difference is that there is no online submission form. Write your feature in any word processor (word, notepad, mswrite...) Don't get overly concerned with the format or formatting. Editors will manage that.
Build stories need pictures along the way for the best impact.
On Display featues need a paragraph of two describing the scene.
Step by Steps should have a photo showing the technique progress.

Questions - just ask.
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 12:14 AM UTC
Regarding writing Reviews, I published this introduction to the subject a while ago:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/929
Bratushka
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Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
KitMaker: 1,019 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 12:18 AM UTC
I have thought about writing some reviews and I enjoy writing. My primary concern that holds me back from trying has to do with with kit accuracy. Statements I have read by members say things like inaccuracies are destroying the hobby and manufacturers who don't create exact replicas and model builders who do not strive for and achieve perfection are wasting time and harming the hobby. If I write a glowing review on a kit because it goes together well and looks great, then get beat up because hull dimensions are wrong or road wheel spacing is incorrect, it affects the credibility of what I wrote. I don't want to have to do a complete structural analysis and research a complete historical evolution of every minute change to the subject the model represents. While I do this to a degree when I undertake a build, I do enough to satisfy myself but it is not an exhaustive search for all available information. I certainly respect the folks that know these vehicles as well as they do and all respect to them, but a few wield this knowledge like a battle ax and i think would quickly discredit any review that was incomplete or incorrect. I can't be sure I would be doing anyone a favor if I wrote a review about a product without this kind of information. For the builder who wants accuracy over everything, this IS important information. The casual or OOB builder isn't going to be affected or even necessarily care about everything being exact. A few oversights or mistakes like that and I doubt anyone would want to read anything else I wrote.These concerns hold true from everything from PE sets to uniforms on figures to paint color. When it comes to saying something is good, accurate, nicely rendered regarding military equipment I can summarize my perception of it by borrowing a title from an old Firesign Theater record: Everything You Know Is Wrong.

Another thing I have noticed are some guidelines that are vague. I wrote a review on Trumpeter's Geschutzen Tiger as an addition to the original review. The guidelines said I couldn't say anything bad about the manufacturer. Does that mean I should not have mentioned I used near a half a tube of Tamiya putty to fill all the ejector pin marks? Or mentioned the nicely detailed transmission tucks into an enclosure so you can't even see that it's in there?

Here's an idea: ask some of the people who know all this stuff in such minute detail to write reviews with that as the basis for the review rather than the usual things. For example, I am a Frank Zappa fan and I remember in a fan magazine there was a section called "The Obsessive Analyst". The person who wrote it would dissect a piece of music and detail where each section was lifted from and dubbed together to create the piece he was analyzing. It was like 00:01 to 00:17 6-8-1982 Hamburg, Germany, 00:18 to 01:11 11-6-1981 Hartford Ct, 01:12 to 01:24 1-13-1977 Copenhagen, early show and on like that for the entire length of the track. How he knew I can't even venture a guess, but you get the idea. It made the überfans very happy.

The idea would be to analyze a kit for it's correctness and review it based on that aspect. This could be run jointly with a more traditional review of the same kit or as a special feature maybe on a monthly basis. Call it Reality Check or something. That could placate the rivet counter set and help educate those interested in learning more of this type of information. This could also take the pressure down a notch and create a bit more of a relaxed review atmosphere that may tempt others to join in.

SIRNEIL
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: July 30, 2007
KitMaker: 658 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 01:57 AM UTC
I dont meen to sound aggressive or even controversial but is the answer to your question put up or shut up.
I have never contributed to armorama and i don't even know if i will but i have thought to myself do i really have the wright to use the forums if i am not prepared to contribute to the site.I am no expert in this hobby and feel that there are people that wright reviews and submitt photo features that are in a differn't league to me.One thing that has come from this for me is that i now visit the reviews section and i have realised the amount of time and effort that people have given to the kitmaker network.
neil.....................
AlanL
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 12, 2005
KitMaker: 14,499 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 02:15 AM UTC
Hi Jim,

I know what you're saying. All my reviews are written from a comsumers point of view, not from a rivet counters or experts point of view. I try to find out as much as I can within the limitation of my resources, but I do not measure angles and go into that much technical detail.

They are very much a this is what you get, this is what I think type of review and I leave the more technical stuff to the experts. If I know helpful links or data then I'll add them in. I also stay away from things I know nothing about which is why I rarely comment on the Axis kits or American/Russian ones for that matter.

You could say I try to stay on reasonable safe ground, but I have limited knowledge, time and resources for much else. However, it does bring products that otherwise would get ignored to the broader community and that I hope will create interest in the genre I like and also broden the appeal of the site, increase participation etc, etc.

If people can add to the review then great.

I would say go ahead, if the criteria are that the review is based on how buildable the kit is then I see nothing wrong with that.

Go for it, would be my advice there are plenty of people around who will help.

Al
russamotto
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Utah, United States
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 08:37 AM UTC
I plan on doing a review of the M4 composite hull from Dragon based on what you get and how it goes together. I don't know what bolt heads should go where. If I find an error in the instructions (it's a Dragon kit, I will find several) I will post what I find. I now know from experience that there are many here who will guide me where I need it.

When I posted my first images I received a lot of help getting it right. When I have asked questions, they have been answered. Don't be afraid to jump in.
c5flies
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California, United States
Joined: October 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,684 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 09:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text



The guidelines said I couldn't say anything bad about the manufacturer.


Wow, I need to start reading thru these responses...but want to comment very quick on this one. The guidelines state no 'rants' against the manufacturer....there's a bit of a difference. What we don't want is for this to be used as a personal vendetta against a company or person (such as the reviewer).

Now I'll go get caught up on the rest!
staff_Jim
Staff MemberPublisher
KITMAKER NETWORK
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New Hampshire, United States
Joined: December 15, 2001
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 09:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The guidelines said I couldn't say anything bad about the manufacturer.


Jim,
I reviewed the Guidelines and even scanned over Jim Rae's article above but don't see the passage you are referring to. Can you tell me where you got this from?

I can state quite clearly that in no way should a reviewer feel they can't say anything bad about a kit. Just reading our recently published reviews seems to show we certainly *do* let reviewers say whatever they want.

Thanks,
Jim
staff_Jim
Staff MemberPublisher
KITMAKER NETWORK
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New Hampshire, United States
Joined: December 15, 2001
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 09:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The guidelines state no 'rants' against the manufacturer....


Err... not that I don't think that's a bad guideline. I still don't see that in the 'official' guidelines.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Submitting&file=index&req=guidelines

What guidelines are you reading James?

Thanks,
Jim
c5flies
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California, United States
Joined: October 21, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 09:23 AM UTC
Jim sounds like he used the 'You Review This' portion of a review (the 'Reader Review');

"Please Read First!
By writing a review of this product you attest to actually owning the item and are able to examine or have built the item first hand. Reviews based on second-hand observations, online photos, or hearsay will be removed. Comments regarding any other review postsed will also be removed. If you want to comment on a review use the discussion button provided on the review page. Please no RANTS against products or manufacturers. We expect user reviews to be well written and thought out. ~ Thanks, Management "
keenan
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Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 09:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am a Frank Zappa fan

Wow, so there are actually two of us in Indiana?
Trust me, fire away with submissions.

Shaun
c5flies
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California, United States
Joined: October 21, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 10:04 AM UTC
OK, so I just read a bunch of stuff that I haven't before...such as the guidelines for reviews... Must be the same reason I always bypass 'stickies', 'cause they're always there!

Neil.....nope, that's not the answer And yes, you've already contributed to the site.....almost 600 posts, I see photos of completed models, etc. That's contributing in my eyes

Jim Hand......Our reviews range from the 'technical' to the 'casual', all depends on who is writing it and on what subject. At least some knowledge and/or research is preferable, but it's not necessary to be an expert on the subject. If that was the case, I'd never write a review....

The question to ask yourself is.....'What do I like to read in a review?'...and go from there. You'll never please everybody.

In general.....Guidelines/tutorials......something that sorely needs to be written/updated. We'll get on this shortly, as it's been on our minds for awhile now. Even though we try to make things as simple as possible, I can see where there are gaps causing confusion.
Bratushka
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Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 11:56 AM UTC
Hi all. My comment about the review rules was a paraphrase. I belong to quite a number of forums and one forum's rant is another forum's mild disagreement while another it would be nothing less than heresy. I haven't read more than a few dozen reviews and none really seemed all that nit-picky (in a good sense) and some did not mention issues I saw with the same model, both good and bad. Having some 200+ AFV and soft skin kits and almost as many detail and accessory kits in my stash I often can compare what's written to what I can actually see. The absence of this information can mean that there is no desire to tick the kit manufacturer off and risk a potential loss of advertising revenue or products donated for review by manufacturers. I don't think this is too outlandish to believe. A member can gripe because he/she is speaking for themselves and not necessarily thought of as speaking for "management" as it were. I once made the mistake of starting a thread here wherein I raved about a recently released aftermarket part that I had read many modelers were wanting. When I posted about it I did so because I was excited about it and did it in absolute good faith. I received a PM from an editor shortly after and was taken to task, albeit gently, for doing it because a feature had been recently written about it. I was also openly criticized for doing it in the thread as well as I recall. Needless to say, I will never do that again! I did write a column for a PAC newsletter many years ago and learned the peril with writing opinionated evaluations and critiques, regardless of the facts backing your premise, is that it's often hard to know when you've crossed the line until you step on a landmine.

RE to Shaun about FZ: Yes indeed we are among the few! I have a fairly extensive collection of both authorized and unauthorized recordings. I am fortunate to own some real gems i have bought from all over the world. These include original copies of Freak Out! in both stereo and mono with one original stereo copy still sealed. I own a couple super rare LPs of which fewer than 100 copies exist world wide and a legendary 3 LP set that had individually hand painted center labels, total production worldwide was only 500 copies. PM me sometime and we can talk about it. I'd be interested in swapping or sharing some music. Always a pleasure to meet another Zappa fan!.
c5flies
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California, United States
Joined: October 21, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 12:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The absence of this information can mean that there is no desire to tick the kit manufacturer off and risk a potential loss of advertising revenue or products donated for review by manufacturers. I don't think this is too outlandish to believe. A member can gripe because he/she is speaking for themselves and not necessarily thought of as speaking for "management" as it were.


Hmmmm......I shouldn't even need to comment on this, but that one got my blood pressure up a few notches. Are you implying that only staff write reviews for 'donated' items? Or that staff only write reviews of 'donated' items? And that we would be swayed by it? Why would we have a discussion forum to let everybody voice their opinions on the review? Why would we have a 'you review this' area? Why would so many review samples go out to 'non-management'?

Sorry, you are wrong on so many counts there that I can't even begin to go through them all. Go to the About Us page (tab at top), click on our contributors and look at the list of reviewers....how many of them do you think are 'management'? Do you even know which reviews are samples or purchased?


mopnglo
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KitMaker: 452 posts
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 12:57 PM UTC
Hey, guys. You can see from my profile - been here since 2006, but only have 20 or so posts - that I'm one of the people reluctant to participate. For a long time I lurked around the site gathering up information and admiring WIP posts and other photos. I read a post similar to this a few months ago, and I decided to try and be a better community member. I owe something for all of the time I spend on here! Last week I posted photos of a completed model for the first time. Now, after 200 views and only 2 comments, I understand why it's important to be an active contributor!

I really appreciate this site and all of the volunteer hours that go into it. I have a small stash, but I do have some items that haven't been reviewed yet. I'll spend some time trying to work one up. And, if there is anything else I can do, I'm more than happy to help.

One question that really does have me stumped is why more don't vote in the Dragon MOM competition?! I always look forward to that post each month!

Thanks!
Michael
Bratushka
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Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 01:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The absence of this information can mean that there is no desire to tick the kit manufacturer off and risk a potential loss of advertising revenue or products donated for review by manufacturers. I don't think this is too outlandish to believe. A member can gripe because he/she is speaking for themselves and not necessarily thought of as speaking for "management" as it were.


Hmmmm......I shouldn't even need to comment on this, but that one got my blood pressure up a few notches. Are you implying that only staff write reviews for 'donated' items? Or that staff only write reviews of 'donated' items? And that we would be swayed by it? Why would we have a discussion forum to let everybody voice their opinions on the review? Why would we have a 'you review this' area? Why would so many review samples go out to 'non-management'?

Sorry, you are wrong on so many counts there that I can't even begin to go through them all. Go to the About Us page (tab at top), click on our contributors and look at the list of reviewers....how many of them do you think are 'management'? Do you even know which reviews are samples or purchased?




i think you just proved my point because what you interpreted my message to be from my words was not what i said at all. i said that this COULD be interpreted that way. i did NOT say I took it that way. i can say from evidence i have seen i can believe that people believe in supernatural visitations. it doesn't mean i believe in supernatural visitations.

honestly, since this has generated anger towards me on your part forget it. there's no point in my taking part in this discussion. i voiced my concerns and answered the question based on the thoughts i hold, perceptions that could be construed about them and then get accused of characterizing staff in an unflattering manner. apologies for angering you. this is another type of discussion i will be sure to avoid in the future.
 _GOTOTOP