Site Talk
Site announcements, comments, or feedback about the site.
Why Don't (or WON'T) YOU Contribute?
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 01:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi all. My comment about the review rules was a paraphrase. I belong to quite a number of forums and one forum's rant is another forum's mild disagreement while another it would be nothing less than heresy. I haven't read more than a few dozen reviews and none really seemed all that nit-picky (in a good sense) and some did not mention issues I saw with the same model, both good and bad. Having some 200+ AFV and soft skin kits and almost as many detail and accessory kits in my stash I often can compare what's written to what I can actually see. The absence of this information can mean that there is no desire to tick the kit manufacturer off and risk a potential loss of advertising revenue or products donated for review by manufacturers. I don't think this is too outlandish to believe. A member can gripe because he/she is speaking for themselves and not necessarily thought of as speaking for "management" as it were. I once made the mistake of starting a thread here wherein I raved about a recently released aftermarket part that I had read many modelers were wanting. When I posted about it I did so because I was excited about it and did it in absolute good faith. I received a PM from an editor shortly after and was taken to task, albeit gently, for doing it because a feature had been recently written about it. I was also openly criticized for doing it in the thread as well as I recall. Needless to say, I will never do that again! I did write a column for a PAC newsletter many years ago and learned the peril with writing opinionated evaluations and critiques, regardless of the facts backing your premise, is that it's often hard to know when you've crossed the line until you step on a landmine.



Jim if you had reviewed an item for the site or sent in a Build feature you would gain access to the contributors forum. In that forum a high percentage of all items coming into the site for review are offered up to those who have provided content in the past year, this is a small reward to those members who go the extra mile to improve the site.
c5flies
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: October 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,684 posts
Armorama: 2,938 posts
Posted: Sunday, April 19, 2009 - 01:47 PM UTC
Jim......angered me? Nah, not really, there wasn't any auto-censored stuff in there! As far as interpretation...go back and read what you wrote. If you had written 'I don't think this is too outlandish for some to believe' or something such as that I may have interpreted it in the way you meant, and we could have discussed it properly. When you use 'I' in a sentence, it does mean 'I'. As far as being accused? I merely asked you some questions, to make sure I was interpreting correctly what you had written. It's all good on my end.
mmeier
Visit this Community
Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,015 posts
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2009 - 06:47 AM UTC
Not posting on the specific vehicle: Well, that is easy. I WON'T build anything pre-1956 and definitly NO WWII German stuff. So I don't care, don't know and don't comment on it.

Not posting reviews: They would be "not up to the standards". I don't care all that much about accurary, I care about "looks good" or "is interesting". So my review of Tamiyas Chieftain Mk5 would be a lot different from the one posted here, concentration on how well the model fits, how good the instructions are etc. And not on how accurate it is/what it is.

Not posting builds: It takes courage to do that. Even more when some members on the board (and this is not an Armorama specific element) are "it has to be 100% the original" and a bit blunt/direct on that (partially due to language, quite a few are not speaking the Queens English as their first language being form Europe, USA, Asia or Australia) And not everyone likes his beloved work critizised. Often it's a "I like it" thing with models

A lot of members: Because there is a lot of stuff to read and learn here. And then try out, fail, curse, re-try and come back
Bratushka
Visit this Community
Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
KitMaker: 1,019 posts
Armorama: 657 posts
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2009 - 10:14 AM UTC
James: I want to offer my analysis of what transpired and then i'm going to drop it.

My words: The absence of this information can mean that there is no desire to tick the kit manufacturer off and risk a potential loss of advertising revenue or products donated for review by manufacturers.

here's a definition and usage example of the word CAN from the sentence I used in the post referred to above:
...d—used to indicate possibility ; sometimes used interchangeably with may d: be permitted by conscience or feeling to e: be made possible or probable by circumstances to

I certainly know enough about publishing to know this is something that does exist. Further I did not specify a recipient for donated kits. I don't know how these things work so I didn't comment on that aspect.

You said you weren't angry but wrote this: "I shouldn't even need to comment on this, but that one got my blood pressure up a few notches."

Me: "I don't think this is too outlandish to believe."

You: "If you had written 'I don't think this is too outlandish for some to believe' or something such as that I may have interpreted it in the way you meant, and we could have discussed it properly. When you use 'I' in a sentence, it does mean 'I'."

My understanding of the English language structure tells me that the second sentence to which you refer was a qualifier for the previous one in which a probability or possibility of a set of conditions could be said to appear to exist. To me, It was a perfectly logical conclusion based on my interpretation of what I had seen, and consequently others could be assumed to be able to draw the same conclusion. This situation does exist any place advertisers are needed for revenue generation or other support. Every time some group gets ticked at a TV or radio program the first line of assault is the advertisers. As an avid PC gamer I can tell you without question there is huge power wielded by advertisers over the publications that review the products. I can show enough evidence to support this I can convince the most hardened cynic. But, I digress. I did not say it did exist here but it could be interpreted that way. The second sentence is intrinsically linked to the first conceptually. It said that I believed it was not to difficult to come to the same conclusion of the possibility of the reviews being skewed for the reasons stated. You took my sentence out of its contextual environment and turned a continuation of a thought about a probability into a stand-alone statement that indicated a fact. It was certainly not intended as a stand alone declarative statement.

So, if it's all good, it's all good.
staff_Jim
Staff MemberPublisher
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
New Hampshire, United States
Joined: December 15, 2001
KitMaker: 12,571 posts
Armorama: 6,599 posts
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2009 - 04:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

As an avid PC gamer I can tell you without question there is huge power wielded by advertisers over the publications that review the products. I can show enough evidence to support this I can convince the most hardened cynic. But, I digress. I did not say it did exist here but it could be interpreted that way.



Jim,
I am a 20+ year computer gamer and I have always thought that magazines like PC Gamer and such were pretty tough in their reviews. Ironically our ratings system was inspired by theirs because I (unlike some) like the idea of being able to rate a product from 0-100 and not simply good or bad, 1-5 stars, or 1-10 stars. As for the reviews by contributors of this site I can emphatically claim we have never told anyone how to rate a product. We have encouraged reviewers to expound on their text, include more photos, etc. but we have always let the reviewer say whatever good or bad things they desire. Do some reviewers concentrate on the good and ignore some of the bad?... probably. Does this happen in all areas of product reviewing on the planet? Again probably. Do some reviewers think they need to write a glowing review no matter what because they are getting a free kit? Sometimes I am sure, but the reader has it within their power to see this and react, by commenting, reviewing it themselves or simply tuning out future reviews by that reviewer.

For the record these "free kits" cost us/me money. Today about $50 in shipping and tomorrow another $70 most likely. The reviews themselves are a time-consuming chore to do and personally I don't envy anyone who does a lot of them. As for the advertisers I have never had an advertiser pull their ads because of a negative review. And in almost 8 years of operation we have had only one or two instances where a manufacturer complained about a review. And never an advertiser.

The bottom line is it's your choice to contribute or not, but not contributing out of some fear you are going to be censured seems a little odd to me. If you did have a problem wouldn't you simply not contribute in the future? Problem solved.

Cheers,
Jim
jimbrae
Visit this Community
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2009 - 09:36 PM UTC
Let me say at the outset, i'm a little disappointed that this thread seems to have been a) Misunderstood & b) Pulled off-topic...

It was NEVER only about Reviews.It was never even about Features. Rather it was about the seeming unwillingness of many to engage at any level. Every Review, Feature or News Report on the site has a link to comment on the item - something which is rarely used. Sometimes an item will get 5-6000 page views and 1 comment.

So, is it about Navigation of the site? From a 'What's New' thread to a Review, Feature or News Item is one click. Could that be any easier? Top of the page are a series of options Homepage, Campaigns Events etc. Once clicked it opens up many more options. Pretty simple...

Back (reluctantly) to Reviews. We do pride ourselves on our independence, we DON'T count ourselves part of the 'If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything' tendency which is still present amongst some sites. As a regular Reviewer I count my principal influence as the standard established on PMMS - that's what I personally aim for. So, when I hear the 'freebies' getting aired, I get mightily pissed. When I see the travesties which get labelled as Reviews on some other sites, I really despair. I really would have more repect for some of these people if they labeled them as 'Product Endorsement' on 'Advertising Feature' - at least we'd know what to expect?
WARLORD
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
HISTORICUS FORMA
Visit this Community
Warszawa, Poland
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 1,923 posts
Armorama: 868 posts
Posted: Monday, April 20, 2009 - 11:55 PM UTC
You got me now. Some time ago I made simple base with scratchbuild piece of bunker.

For about two months I was saying "I will write a short article for Armorama the next day". Now I feel ashamed and motivated. I hope to find some free time and write it by the end of the week.

So to be honest I think I was to lazy to get writing started.
I'll try harder to be a better member of Armorama in future.
panzer_fan
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 25, 2003
KitMaker: 427 posts
Armorama: 348 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 01:42 AM UTC
Guys, let's not take the "You said, I said" route. This was not the case of the original post. It is simply a question on why don't we contribute more. It was meant in the way to find out what we can do as a whole community to bring more value, more information, more knowledge/know-how to the site, so others can learn and use the wealth of experience that is available here. That's all.
And yes, personally I wish I had contributed more to the site. BUT! There is that fear that our posting might go up in flames, especially by the rivet counters and those who believe that if the gun barrel is short 0.5 mm or the glacis plate is about 0.03mm thicker that it should be, the kit is not up to standards. While this rivet counting is a good thing, as we learn new things, a review is only a means to voice your own opinion with respect to a certain subject. I know, every review, build feature, post in the forums or what not, takes time and careful editing and even if these days time is of the essence, I believe we can all find a little bit of time here and there to contribute to our community.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 05:01 AM UTC
I used to contribute quite regularly, then I fell out of favor with the in-crowd. This was around the time the site was getting a negative perception of favoring a particular manufacturer review-wise.

I didn't think the site was favoring that manufacturer; I think it was more a combination of the company making better products, releasing them much more quickly, and the reviewer not having as much knowledge about the subject and therefore not able to critique the accuracy of the kit as well as the target audience the kit was aimed towards would have liked.

They made kits aimed at the more knowledgeable modelers and when those kits had obvious (to the experts) errors, but the errors were not pointed out in the review (because the reviewer was not and expert), the site's credibility suffered.

I stopped contributing reviews when I had to submit them to a person (who got canned every couple of years himself) who would then review what I wrote before publication.
cheese
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: April 16, 2007
KitMaker: 106 posts
Armorama: 31 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 07:15 AM UTC
My 2 cents (as if it really mattered).....

1.) The reviews are fantastic and i look forward to reviews like the recent (or not so recent) ones like the M1A2 SEP, the C-17A, and the F-22 (Academy)....Im a more modern builder (even though ive gone to the darkside with a Thunderbolt and a Corsair in the stash), so most reviews are not in my taste of subject........Theres another reason too, but thats my own narrow point of view and related to a very HOT topic a while ago

2.) I absolutely love the features.......even though 80% of the stuff, i wont ever do, I like to read through the creativity used by others (maybe would spark something or reveal something that i've been looking for)......

So thanks to everyone who does these things.....the more the better......

as for me, i need to do a feature on the roadwheels stencil making process but have been told, "No more models until you finish some" from SWMBO......i am finishing 2 this week so i might be allowed to get another......

if i do, i promise a feature soon
muchachos
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: May 21, 2008
KitMaker: 537 posts
Armorama: 439 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 09:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Some time ago I made simple base with scratchbuild piece of bunker.



Marcin, that's some really nice grass,how did you do it?

Sorry for the , but uhmm, call it contributing?

Scott
MacTrucks
Visit this Community
Indiana, United States
Joined: November 12, 2006
KitMaker: 285 posts
Armorama: 228 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 01:53 PM UTC
I think there are three factors for most people.

1. Time. I find it hard to build and do reviews or build logs at the same time. I forget to take photos or just don't have the time to build in the first place. This is managable though.
2. Knowledge. I think some people are concerned they don't know enough to really make a statement. No offense to anyone, but some scathing reviews of kits get into details I wouldn't normally notice or expect. Yeah, I tend to research and correct glaring inaccuracies, but some times a person can go overboard. That's fine for them, I don't mind, but I don't want to overlook whether or not the kit can be built and if it looks like the real thing to the average joe.
3. Skills. There are some highly skilled and experienced modelers on the website. Not to use this as an excuse, but there will be some modelers who won't share a "sub-par" build that didn't correct every detail. That is NOT to say that offering a model, any model, for feedback should be a big happy party. If you want criticism, take it. If you just want to share, say so. Be it average Joe, newbie, or master builder, everyone should feel free to share and should be willing to responded to at their skill.

My two cents. Right now my problem is time. Its baseball/softball season, so my time is limited until July.
sopmod6
Visit this Community
Tokyo-to, Japan / 日本
Joined: March 31, 2005
KitMaker: 761 posts
Armorama: 455 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 02:00 PM UTC
I've been on this site now for more than a few years now, and while I enjoy it, it has to a point, fallen into what I personally call "my disfavor". This is the only site I've never contributed too, and for the longest time, had a hard time deciding what I wanted to contribute.
There are alot of individuals who seem to jump on the all-knowing bandwagon, and I for one don't care for it. I could care less what someones model looks like, the fact that they built it in the first place is good enough in my book.
There are many so called armchair experts here, and while some are legit in my book, others are outright morons. Even those who have contributed heartedly can be the biggest gimps too.
Constructive criticism is good, but when you start negatively posting about someone elses work when yours is just as mediocre is a complete oxymoron.
Post whores. Have you seen them lately?! Over a thousand posts in a year. Hell, I havent even hit that yet, nor am I close. Some of these are the very individuals I speak about.
There are alot more reasons but even typing this makes my head hurt.
I enjoy Armorama, but even moreso when I first came to this site. There was alot more useful people and info to go around. Now, its just more of the 1337 crowd.

Its difficult to want to contribute when these elements are an issue, at least to me. Maybe
someday it improve.
Bratushka
Visit this Community
Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
KitMaker: 1,019 posts
Armorama: 657 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 02:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

As an avid PC gamer I can tell you without question there is huge power wielded by advertisers over the publications that review the products. I can show enough evidence to support this I can convince the most hardened cynic. But, I digress. I did not say it did exist here but it could be interpreted that way.



Jim,
I am a 20+ year computer gamer and I have always thought that magazines like PC Gamer and such were pretty tough in their reviews. Ironically our ratings system was inspired by theirs because I (unlike some) like the idea of being able to rate a product from 0-100 and not simply good or bad, 1-5 stars, or 1-10 stars. As for the reviews by contributors of this site I can emphatically claim we have never told anyone how to rate a product. We have encouraged reviewers to expound on their text, include more photos, etc. but we have always let the reviewer say whatever good or bad things they desire. Do some reviewers concentrate on the good and ignore some of the bad?... probably. Does this happen in all areas of product reviewing on the planet? Again probably. Do some reviewers think they need to write a glowing review no matter what because they are getting a free kit? Sometimes I am sure, but the reader has it within their power to see this and react, by commenting, reviewing it themselves or simply tuning out future reviews by that reviewer.

For the record these "free kits" cost us/me money. Today about $50 in shipping and tomorrow another $70 most likely. The reviews themselves are a time-consuming chore to do and personally I don't envy anyone who does a lot of them. As for the advertisers I have never had an advertiser pull their ads because of a negative review. And in almost 8 years of operation we have had only one or two instances where a manufacturer complained about a review. And never an advertiser.

The bottom line is it's your choice to contribute or not, but not contributing out of some fear you are going to be censured seems a little odd to me. If you did have a problem wouldn't you simply not contribute in the future? Problem solved.

Cheers,
Jim



Hi Jim. Yeah, I understand your conclusion, but I like to pick my battles! It's a prerogative of age kind of thing and I don;t mean the "position of superiority" definition of the word! Long ago in a different life I wrote a politically based column in an Andy Rooney on acid sort of way. I took some hard licks at times because of what I had written, Those few lows more than offset the many more great highs from nailing my subject perfectly. I still look at writing with a bit of a jaded eye and I guess it shows. I don't mean to sound like an ass, but sometimes I just can't help myself!

/
RE the PC gaming thing, PC Gamer is the only mag I still read and trust. Games for Windows I no longer bother with. I thought they changed when they dropped their old name and not for the better. I tried to remain open minded about it, but what I read and what I experienced didn't jibe. To be fair you have to step on toes to honestly review things regularly because everything isn't aways fine and perfect. Game Pro was useless to me. I don't think they ever met a game they didn't like. There were a couple others whose names have long faded into memory. I know that all of them changed around their review rating system and one dropped it completely and then brought it back again.

Again, I never knew how the kit for reviews were distributed. I thought reader submitted reviews were always based on kits the readers bought themselves and that other kits and products went to editorial staff. As a motorcyclist, one of my favorite motorcycle magazines was Motorcycle Consumer News who were like Consumer Reports in that they bought off the shelf or off the showroom floor to make sure they got the same product to review that you or I would have bought rather than something the manufacturer had prepped or given special attention to. When you guys get kits, are they always preproduction or initial productions (no pun intended)? If so, does this have any effect on what you will see in such a kit compared to something one would see if it was the 3rd or 4th thousandth produced? I know I have read about manufacturers using old molds which were said to cause excess flash and sometimes loss of detail.

Lastly, I know there are guidelines for reviews, although as I expressed in a not so clear manner, some seem a bit open ended, but what about any standards such as historical reference and accuracy and that? I know the general approach seems to be write what you know, but apparently I'm not the only once with concerns about bashing by the rivet counters. Again, all respect to those folks and the effort they put into learning the things they know as well as they did!

As I mentioned in an earlier post that may not have been noticed because of the other content, what about the idea of asking some of these folks to write kit reviews with the emphasis on the accuracy angle? It would give them a medium in which to strut their stuff as well as give those of us who have an interest in that kind of thing to get a little education. There certainly are some superb candidates on Armorama to write such a review.
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,954 posts
Armorama: 8,571 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 05:58 PM UTC
We have to my knowledge received some kits prior to them hitting the market; however most of the samples that I have seen are just hitting the market or have been on sale for a short period of time. As regards writing reviews some knowledge of the subject matter is a plus; however I myself prefer reading about what the kit is like rather than how accurate it is. I suppose we all look for slightly different things in a review of a product, and even with the product itself for that matter, and regardless of what you write you will never please everyone. As long as the review is your honest opinion of the product be it good or bad then that is good enough.
WARLORD
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
HISTORICUS FORMA
Visit this Community
Warszawa, Poland
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 1,923 posts
Armorama: 868 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 08:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Marcin, that's some really nice grass,how did you do it?



I hope you'll be able to read about it soon
lespauljames
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 06, 2007
KitMaker: 3,661 posts
Armorama: 2,764 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 10:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text



When you guys get kits, are they always preproduction or initial productions (no pun intended)? If so, does this have any effect on what you will see in such a kit compared to something one would see if it was the 3rd or 4th thousandth produced?


Hey Jim, before the Lionroar zundapps came out , Bill C and I evaluated the pre production kits for accuracy,missing details bad instructions, i thought that was great, as if missing details or such are found, the manufacturer can put their foot down and try and sort it out.
lespauljames
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: January 06, 2007
KitMaker: 3,661 posts
Armorama: 2,764 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 10:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I've been on this site now for more than a few years now, and while I enjoy it, it has to a point, fallen into what I personally call "my disfavor". This is the only site I've never contributed too, and for the longest time, had a hard time deciding what I wanted to contribute.
There are alot of individuals who seem to jump on the all-knowing bandwagon, and I for one don't care for it. I could care less what someones model looks like, the fact that they built it in the first place is good enough in my book.
There are many so called armchair experts here, and while some are legit in my book, others are outright morons. Even those who have contributed heartedly can be the biggest gimps too.
Constructive criticism is good, but when you start negatively posting about someone elses work when yours is just as mediocre is a complete oxymoron.
Post whores. Have you seen them lately?! Over a thousand posts in a year. Hell, I havent even hit that yet, nor am I close. Some of these are the very individuals I speak about.
There are alot more reasons but even typing this makes my head hurt.
I enjoy Armorama, but even moreso when I first came to this site. There was alot more useful people and info to go around. Now, its just more of the 1337 crowd.

Its difficult to want to contribute when these elements are an issue, at least to me. Maybe
someday it improve.



Arnold, i dont not understand your post whore thing, for one, why the hell should there be a limit on how much one posts
even if its a little comment,i dunno maybe a "great build" or " like the camo" it can do wonders for someones morale. constructive crititisism gets the job done and results in a more satisfied moddeler who cares if the moddeler who is critisising constructively;'s models arent as good as the origional poster, i think you fail to see the bigger picture, somebody may not be great at modelling, but say they pay attention to post describing new techniques and decide to wait until they are more confident with a brush/pe/resin/airbrush to try it, they may have seen crackign results, i hope you follow my point,
well if anyone can make sence of that babble i congratulate you
Bratushka
Visit this Community
Indiana, United States
Joined: May 09, 2008
KitMaker: 1,019 posts
Armorama: 657 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 11:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



When you guys get kits, are they always preproduction or initial productions (no pun intended)? If so, does this have any effect on what you will see in such a kit compared to something one would see if it was the 3rd or 4th thousandth produced?


Hey Jim, before the Lionroar zundapps came out , Bill C and I evaluated the pre production kits for accuracy,missing details bad instructions, i thought that was great, as if missing details or such are found, the manufacturer can put their foot down and try and sort it out.



Now that sounds very cool!

For a reviewing topic I know I had sort of started shying away from Tamiya kits but their recent Jagdtiger kit is really something to behold! I haven't started building it yet having also acquired Dragon's as well plus Dragons first jagdtiger kit is in my stash. Maybe I might just try my hand (no pun intended here) to do a hand written (that was a pun!) first review or build log or something to test the waters.

BTW: I was a bit confused about a few of Arnold's comments as well, especially the "post whores" thing. Isn't the opposite of a post whore a Troll?

jimbrae
Visit this Community
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 - 11:47 PM UTC
@ Arnold. Let me address your 'issues' to the best of my capabilities.

First of all, what you seem to be talking about is lack of 'community'. To a certain extent there HAS been a loss of this, but with nearly 40,000 registered users it's difficult. Each 'Special Interest Group' creates (or doesn't) it's own community. However, there's another side to this. I hate the trolls, I dislike intensely those whose sole object in life is to make life difficult for others. I also have a REAL hatred for those Site-Owners and Managers who terrify their members into posting 'Nice' things about everone else. Deviate from the 'Norm' and you're banned. Have even the slightest disagreement over direction and you're history. Be nice, play the game and you'll get some Review Samples. Sometimes community CAN be tense and edgy - IMO, this frequently makes for a more creative environment?

Regarding your other points, I don't see many of them as either constructive or helpful. Just because someone posts a lot doesn't signify they've got an 'agenda'.

'EXPERTS' This, IMO, is becoming a pretty lame excuse for not doing anything. No-one expects 'Expert' Reviews all the time. Let me give an example. I'm currently working on a Review of WWP's book on the FMTV Truck series. I'm sure there are other people out there whose knowledge of the subject is infinitely greater than my own. However, on the basis that i'm very familiar with this type of book (most of my Reviews HAVE been books of this type) i'm pretty happy doing it. My approach? Simple, i'm looking at it from the modeler's point of view. Will it be useful for anyone working on Trump's kit? Going by the published reviews on the model, I can apply its value towards anyone building it or the M198 Howitzer.

That for me is the fundamental part of Reviewing. Communicate what YOU got out of it and if you're familiar with the broad remit of the product you're halfway there..

God, i'm back talking about Reviews again...
sgtreef
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
Armorama: 4,347 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 01:10 AM UTC
I need to contribute more myself just that time has been bad lately.

Layoffs at work now few do more,and will continue that way, Drug tests catch more then again Fewer do even more see where this is going.

A call from boss stay home today, but come in at 4:00 Am and work until 4:00 Pm Thursday and Friday

See sucks but not much else to say or do or find a new job

So hi ho hi ho it's off to work I go.

No post Ho here

I think you need to lighten up dude as only a hobby.
sopmod6
Visit this Community
Tokyo-to, Japan / 日本
Joined: March 31, 2005
KitMaker: 761 posts
Armorama: 455 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 01:18 AM UTC
Criticism is criticism...I'll take it for what its worth. What gets me is people extending the knowledge they think they have when they don't. I drove all kinds of vehicles in the military, but does that make me an expert or knowledgeable on them? It sure didn't.
I rely on books and the WELL informed individual. What irks me are those who THINK they know. I don't expect 100% accuracy, but well informed info is better than armchair bravado.

Another example: Member comes on board, asking about selling his built up models. Guy gets ridiculed by long time member for bringing up such topic and told to go to ebay.
Long time member then decides to sell his built ups on this site himself. Where is the self policing?

As far as the "Post whores", thats how I see it. I don't personally need to see my build log inundated with "kewl" or "nice camo". I'd rather have a well placed criticism that reflects the positve or negative aspects of my build. Then again, I remember that there are those who don't know how to properly judge or review said subject matter, or say anything more than two or three words long. Again, this is my opinion.

This isnt a perfect world, and I understand that. Hell if that were the case, all my models would build and paint themselves.
Then again, I believe it can be close to perfect.

And lastly here is some advise from someone who knows something: you wipe til its clean.
Front to back.

jimbrae
Visit this Community
Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 01:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't personally need to see my build log inundated with "kewl" or "nice camo". I'd rather have a well placed criticism that reflects the positve or negative aspects of my build. Then again, I remember that there are those who don't know how to properly judge or review said subject matter, or say anything more than two or three words long. Again, this is my opinion.



That also sticks in my throat. Unfortunately, there are a number of people who, if you suggest something to them which they've missed or its incorrect, will completely fly-off the handle. I see no point in the 'Constructive Criticism' Forum of the posts you're refering to either. I dislike the 'Attaboy' comments intensely. When I started off in competitions, there were a number of older modelers who gave me a lot of helpful advice and didn't spare my blushes either. Steep learning curve but, at the end of the day, worth it. It's a part of the 'learning to contribute' process - so yes, NOW I see the logic in your 'Post Whores' comments.

I don't want this site to be seen as 'Uber-Modeler.com' nor though do I want it exclusively for the occasional modeler either. We need to get more from the Newbies AND those with 40 years experience...

I try NOT to react to the 'It's only a hobby' comments either - if a thing's worth doing it's worth doing well
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 02:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text


'EXPERTS' This, IMO, is becoming a pretty lame excuse for not doing anything. No-one expects 'Expert' Reviews all the time. Let me give an example. I'm currently working on a Review of WWP's book on the FMTV Truck series. I'm sure there are other people out there whose knowledge of the subject is infinitely greater than my own. However, on the basis that i'm very familiar with this type of book (most of my Reviews HAVE been books of this type) i'm pretty happy doing it. My approach? Simple, i'm looking at it from the modeler's point of view. Will it be useful for anyone working on Trump's kit? Going by the published reviews on the model, I can apply its value towards anyone building it or the M198 Howitzer.



I think there are times when reviews should be done by experts and times when it is not necessary. For instance, when Dragon produced the new M1A1AIM and M1A2SEP, these kits were aimed at the modeler who wanted the most accurate Abrams model ever produced. A review of the kits should have been done by someone intimately familiar with the vehicle to see how the kit details compared to the actual tank. The kits are definitely not box shakers and the level of detail is often lost on casual modelers who can basically just identify an Abrams from a Tiger.

The Trumpeter Stryker, on the other hand, is aimed at the casual modeler who just wants the latest cool looking armored car the US Army has fielded. A reviewer with less knowledge on the subject would do just fine.

I could do a better than average review on an AIM or SEP because I have more knowledge on the subject, have access to the actual vehicles and have good enough modeling skills that the kit requires. On the other hand, I would not do as well a job on one of Dragon's King Tiger kits because my knowledge on the vehicle is limited even though I have access to and can lay hands on an actual KT at the Patton Museum.

Bottom line, if the level of the reviewer doesn't meet the level of the target audience the kit is aimed at, the site's review credibility will suffer.
BobCard
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: August 09, 2006
KitMaker: 1,008 posts
Armorama: 847 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 - 03:14 AM UTC
[quote]
So, as always, this poses the question: Where does the (seeming) reluctance to contribute come from?
Simple question, with doubtless many possible answers, but simply put:
Why Not?
[quote]

I'll give it a shot. Simply put I do not contribute more because I choose not to.
The reasons are varied and numerous but it is a choice I make.
I'll take the time to try out a new weathering technique, take the time to document it; I have photos of every diorama I’ve ever made. I have no idea what happened to some of them but I check the photos when I’m working on something similar. I’ll post here what I’m doing and if it seems to me there was little interest, I just file it away. My choice.

There are a lot of things out there people can help with; they simply choose not to do so.

I know there are people out there lucky enough to be able to go through archives, and horde the info for possible future release for profit. The American way, I’d be glad to pay for it. Hell when I can ask an author for a disk of the photos in his book because you can barely make them out, and offer to pay for them on top of that, he chooses not to because he may be putting out a future book out around the same topic.

When you respond to a request for assistance and you offer or provide help and get totally ignored, without even the courtesy of a thanks but no thanks. I then choose not to offer.

It’s a choice. Plain and simple.

I was getting a giggle out of the fact that mainly the contributors to the site already were posting and saying what they were going to do. Then the topic kind of twisted, then a little heated. But then I chose to post this response and hopefully I’ll get off my dead butt and choose to do more.
Bob