Quoted Text
Flemish speaking Belgian
and proud to be one !
still funny topic
Hosted by Darren Baker
Potential Feature: German for Modellers
jointhepit
Joined: May 14, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 11:12 PM UTC
and proud to be one !
still funny topic
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks, everyone, keep 'em coming! I have to at some point cut off the list (Tom Houlihan's book Kriegsprache sounds like the ticket for someone who REALLY wants the answers, though I looked it up on Amazon, and it's $26!!), but your input is what I want.
As for pronounciation, we can debate this endlessly (and no flames received or sent!). The two languages have different sound groups. I was a German BA in college, and have traveled there quite a bit, and even taught German for a semester in grad school many years ago. There is no substitute for someone teaching you the sounds and correcting your efforts, but unfortunately, that can't be done yet over the Internet just yet. This feature-in-the-making is my poor effort to help out my fellow modelers.
Probably ought to do one for English for non-English speakers, but it would be hard to pick up all the different, idiosyncratic mistakes for each language. My favorites for German-speakers is Informations (it's never plural in English) and "I have lived here since six years" (a translation of the German "ich wohne hier seit sechs Jahren").
Not for nothing, 26 simolians is more than reasonable for a reference such as
Kriegsprache. It's well thought out and contains probably every ferschluggin term and phrase you'll every need to sound like you know what your babbling about at the next model show, even if you really don't. Aside from the modeling aspect, it provides you with the ability to translate and understand phraseology and terms commonly found in wartime German documents when conducting research.
Look guys, nobody here has a problem shelling out $25, or even more, for something like a a photo-etch spanner wrench just so the mechanic's toolbag in their uber-detailed Panzersturmluftringtailedlemurschnellmorserwagenschlepper is acccurate. This book is an indispesible addition to any modeler's/military historian's reference library. Again, at $26.00, this book book is easily worth twice the cover price. Other books offer considerably less and are more expensive.
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:24 AM UTC
Is there an English / American / Australien counterpart to "Kriegssprache"? German is not the problem 
but some terms used by the other Feldpostnummer still elude me. I.e it took a chance meet with a BAOR guy to learn that a "Bergen" is a "Backpack".
but some terms used by the other Feldpostnummer still elude me. I.e it took a chance meet with a BAOR guy to learn that a "Bergen" is a "Backpack".Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is there an English / American / Australien counterpart to "Kriegssprache"? German is not the problem
Oh, those whacky Brits! They're just like the French; a different word for everything.
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Is there an English / American / Australien counterpart to "Kriegssprache"? German is not the problem
O.K., seriously now. This is what you can use for standardized military terminology:
STANAG 3680 AAP-6 NATO Glossary of Terms and Definitions
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/other_pubs/aap_6v.pdf
You're on your own as far as slang terms are concerned.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 06:00 AM UTC
Thank you all for your help, suggestions and vigorous debate. I will continue to update the feature as I see the need. It can't be all-inclusive and shouldn't be. I agree with Joseph that Kriegsprache is highly worthwhile, and I did not mean to imply it isn't worth $26. Indeed, reference works too often are ignored in the hobby because they aren't "sexy." Perhaps this discussion will help drive sales for the book and encourage its publisher to bring it back into print.
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 06:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you all for your help, suggestions and vigorous debate. I will continue to update the feature as I see the need. It can't be all-inclusive and shouldn't be. I agree with Joseph that Kriegsprache is highly worthwhile, and I did not mean to imply it isn't worth $26. Indeed, reference works too often are ignored in the hobby because they aren't "sexy." Perhaps this discussion will help drive sales for the book and encourage its publisher to bring it back into print.
I just want to make it clear that I am not an actor portraying a compensated spokesman.
SSGToms
Joined: April 02, 2005
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 08:30 AM UTC
Hi Bill,
I am not even a semi-fluent German speaker and I don't pretend to be one. I do know how to pronounce all the relevant German WW II terms, though. I go to ten local shows a year, 8 of them IPMS. There is nothing funnier than the awards ceremony when the hosting clubs' President is an aircraft guy. Usually we treadheads group together and get a good laugh as all the German terms are slaughtered. I think the best is hearing "SdKfz." announced as a word, "Sudduhkufzuhh".
I've met lots of armor guys, though, that may have a huge library and been reading reference for decades, but have never discussed German armor with another live person. So they tell me they built a "JaggedTiger". It would help a lot of people if they knew that J's are Y's, V's are F's, and W's are V's. So it's "YaahktTiger" and "FolksVaahgen".
Sorry if my phonetics aren't clear.
Oh, and Bill, a huge "Thank You" to you for taking this on for the benefit of us all.
I am not even a semi-fluent German speaker and I don't pretend to be one. I do know how to pronounce all the relevant German WW II terms, though. I go to ten local shows a year, 8 of them IPMS. There is nothing funnier than the awards ceremony when the hosting clubs' President is an aircraft guy. Usually we treadheads group together and get a good laugh as all the German terms are slaughtered. I think the best is hearing "SdKfz." announced as a word, "Sudduhkufzuhh".
I've met lots of armor guys, though, that may have a huge library and been reading reference for decades, but have never discussed German armor with another live person. So they tell me they built a "JaggedTiger". It would help a lot of people if they knew that J's are Y's, V's are F's, and W's are V's. So it's "YaahktTiger" and "FolksVaahgen".
Sorry if my phonetics aren't clear.
Oh, and Bill, a huge "Thank You" to you for taking this on for the benefit of us all.
Gorizont
Joined: November 28, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 09:33 AM UTC
Interesting topic here!
I also try to understand, how to write the german words, so that english-speakers/non-german can speak them.
greetings...
Soeren (or Sören, if you like) ;-)
I also try to understand, how to write the german words, so that english-speakers/non-german can speak them.
greetings...
Soeren (or Sören, if you like) ;-)
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 09:49 AM UTC
Matt, Soeren, thank you both. It makes the effort worthwhile if I can be helpful. My hope is that those who don't know will be empowered to talk about they things they clearly love, and that it will make the hobby more fun for them. Maybe someone will even be encouraged to buy Kriegsprache and get into the terminology in more detail.
And Germans I know are very appreciative when someone tries to pronounce things correctly, and they certainly understand their language can be a mouthful of consonants and verbs dangling off the end of clauses (the only saving grace is that English is, by most opinions, that hardest language to master properly with the most exceptions and ridiculous spelling conventions). The stereotypes of the forbidding Prussian we have from TV and the movies are just that: fictional simplifications.
And Germans I know are very appreciative when someone tries to pronounce things correctly, and they certainly understand their language can be a mouthful of consonants and verbs dangling off the end of clauses (the only saving grace is that English is, by most opinions, that hardest language to master properly with the most exceptions and ridiculous spelling conventions). The stereotypes of the forbidding Prussian we have from TV and the movies are just that: fictional simplifications.
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 10:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The stereotypes of the forbidding Prussian we have from TV and the movies are just that: fictional simplifications.
Evidently, you never met my sixth grade teacher, Sister Heladia.
emroglan
Joined: December 16, 2004
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 10:27 AM UTC
That's a good one Bill, should help most of the non-German speakers. Having learned some basic German in high school in addition to English, I also have a few laughs when some Turks here try to pronounce German words here. At least in Turkish we also like to put together words to make new ones, so I am familar with the German tendency like Sturzkamfflugzeug 
.
@ Hisham: Try teaching Arabic, I bet I can correctly pronounce the words... but don't expect me to write One thing that I can't understand is how Arabic readers can differentiate the words of the same root, as far as I know there are no written vowels and "katip (writer)" and "kitap (book)" are written same thing. Of course, this might be a huge Turkish urban legend as well
If you are complaning about not understanding military words, try Turkish military. We have a lot of words directly borrowed from English, German and Italian. Trouble is, we write them differently so they don't look like the original word and they mean nothing in Turkish. One example is the English word "Emergency". Our air force adapted the word, but it's written "Emercensi" or "Emergensi", basically meaningless in both languages
. @ Hisham: Try teaching Arabic, I bet I can correctly pronounce the words... but don't expect me to write
One thing that I can't understand is how Arabic readers can differentiate the words of the same root, as far as I know there are no written vowels and "katip (writer)" and "kitap (book)" are written same thing. Of course, this might be a huge Turkish urban legend as well If you are complaning about not understanding military words, try Turkish military. We have a lot of words directly borrowed from English, German and Italian. Trouble is, we write them differently so they don't look like the original word and they mean nothing in Turkish. One example is the English word "Emergency". Our air force adapted the word, but it's written "Emercensi" or "Emergensi", basically meaningless in both languages
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 10:34 AM UTC
Just like the English equivalent to Raki is "severe hangover".
chnoone
Joined: January 01, 2009
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Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 11:38 AM UTC
Hi guys,
I am really enjoying this initiative, since I myself being gifted to have being raised bilingual (Dad US+ Mom German).
Since I went to a private school in England for a while U would not imagine the difficulties I had when I joined the US military, believing we speak the same language. Like asking somebody to hand me a "torch", or have a look "beneath" the tank etc., any way my fellow americans would mostly rely on the German they picked up on "Hogans Heroes", and tried to put it to use straight away. Surprisingly enough it worked okay .... until they started calling everyone "Schweinehund", but during my travels around the world I have found that it is most appreciated by any foreigner (except maybe North Korea) when U try to speak or to learn their language, even if it does not sound quite right at first.
But our German friends here can confirm that even in Germany, in the State of Saxony (Sachsen), all other German speaking people have great difficulties understanding their dialect.
So do not worry, the German language is just as " weird " at times like all the others, it‘s the effort that counts.
Cheers
Christopher
I am really enjoying this initiative, since I myself being gifted to have being raised bilingual (Dad US+ Mom German).
Since I went to a private school in England for a while U would not imagine the difficulties I had when I joined the US military, believing we speak the same language. Like asking somebody to hand me a "torch", or have a look "beneath" the tank etc., any way my fellow americans would mostly rely on the German they picked up on "Hogans Heroes", and tried to put it to use straight away. Surprisingly enough it worked okay .... until they started calling everyone "Schweinehund", but during my travels around the world I have found that it is most appreciated by any foreigner (except maybe North Korea) when U try to speak or to learn their language, even if it does not sound quite right at first.
But our German friends here can confirm that even in Germany, in the State of Saxony (Sachsen), all other German speaking people have great difficulties understanding their dialect.
So do not worry, the German language is just as " weird " at times like all the others, it‘s the effort that counts.
Cheers
Christopher
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 02:21 AM UTC
Funny, never knew Flemish is a language, thaught that was DUTCH 
Anyway, also funny to see all the o-sounds which should just be a grin.
A POK gun, haha.
Actually, when one translated the Kana from Tamiya's panzer picture books, those read like "Yakuto Taiga" for JagdTiger. Which is mostly a Germlish translation, as the Jagd part is German, and Tiger is English.
Tiger in German would be Tea-Gur.
Anyway, also funny to see all the o-sounds which should just be a grin.
A POK gun, haha.
Actually, when one translated the Kana from Tamiya's panzer picture books, those read like "Yakuto Taiga" for JagdTiger. Which is mostly a Germlish translation, as the Jagd part is German, and Tiger is English.
Tiger in German would be Tea-Gur.
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 04:31 AM UTC
What do you mean "forbidding Prussian"? Those guys are simply thirsty! Give them ten "German Settings" (Pils and something to drink) and they loose up. If you don't believe it I am a willing test subject
Question: Did the US-version of Hogans Heroes have Schultz and Klink speak german with subtitles? Both actors ARE german (well Banner is Austrian) so they could.
Question: Did the US-version of Hogans Heroes have Schultz and Klink speak german with subtitles? Both actors ARE german (well Banner is Austrian) so they could.
Neo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 05:12 AM UTC
I only know one German phrase but I seen to use it alot (when I'm in Germany)...
andere bier bitte - another beer please
andere bier bitte - another beer please
Self-Propelled
Joined: April 01, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 05:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Question: Did the US-version of Hogans Heroes have Schultz and Klink speak german with subtitles? Both actors ARE german (well Banner is Austrian) so they could.
The English version had both of them speak in fluent English but they did use German words from time to time. A classic show.
SSGToms
Joined: April 02, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 07:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuestion: Did the US-version of Hogans Heroes have Schultz and Klink speak german with subtitles? Both actors ARE german (well Banner is Austrian) so they could.
The English version had both of them speak in fluent English but they did use German words from time to time. A classic show.
Yeah, Shultz spoke in a stereotypical German accent and Klink sounded like he was from Cambridge Massachusetts!
Hisham
Joined: July 23, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 08:19 AM UTC
Hey, Emre... I don't want to go off topic and start esplaining Arabic, but I'll tell you this much. We have accents that are similar to the Fench accents which make the same word written with the same three letters pronounced differently to give two different meanings, or tenses to a verb.
"Kataba".. means "wrote" in the past tense
"Koutiba".. means "was written" with the subject unknown.
Both words are written with the same three letters, but with different accents that make the difference in pronounciation.
Enough.. don't want to piss off Bill by hijacking his thread.
Hisham
"Kataba".. means "wrote" in the past tense
"Koutiba".. means "was written" with the subject unknown.
Both words are written with the same three letters, but with different accents that make the difference in pronounciation.
Enough.. don't want to piss off Bill by hijacking his thread.
Hisham
jointhepit
Joined: May 14, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 08:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Funny, never knew Flemish is a language, thaught that was DUTCH
thank you for the insult.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 10:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Enough.. don't want to piss off Bill by hijacking his thread.
Hisham
It's OK, Hisham, the European members are hurling insults at each other's languages and customs, so I don't mind focusing on something like the beauty of Arabic (both the poetry and the written word).
TrifonDK
Joined: February 17, 2009
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 01:10 PM UTC
I've been following this thread since post 1. Excellent idea Bill, et al, I should say....
Now, I'm a language teacher / linguist / translator... My secondary military specialty was interpreter.... I respect languages and try not to massacre a word by uttering it before I can somehow confirm how it should be pronounced....
Anyway, coming to the point... Was trying to see if any of the local LHSs could get me a couple of Friul or MK tracks for my SdKfz 10/4 and /5 just this afternoon.
I tried to avoid it any way I could, but guys, the look on their faces when I tried to explain Sonderkraftfahrzeuge to them........
So, yes, I had to resort to "Sudduhkufzuhh" to get a straight answer........
Oh well, again congrats for an excellent thread, which is also getting to be seriousle entertaining as well...!
BTW, anytime anyone wants to burst a couple of brain vessels by trying to get their tongue around some Hellenic (a.k.a. Greek) military terminology, never mind reading it, I'm up...!
Now, I'm a language teacher / linguist / translator... My secondary military specialty was interpreter.... I respect languages and try not to massacre a word by uttering it before I can somehow confirm how it should be pronounced....
Anyway, coming to the point... Was trying to see if any of the local LHSs could get me a couple of Friul or MK tracks for my SdKfz 10/4 and /5 just this afternoon.
I tried to avoid it any way I could, but guys, the look on their faces when I tried to explain Sonderkraftfahrzeuge to them........
So, yes, I had to resort to "Sudduhkufzuhh" to get a straight answer........
Oh well, again congrats for an excellent thread, which is also getting to be seriousle entertaining as well...!
BTW, anytime anyone wants to burst a couple of brain vessels by trying to get their tongue around some Hellenic (a.k.a. Greek) military terminology, never mind reading it, I'm up...!
Headhunter506
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 01:54 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuestion: Did the US-version of Hogans Heroes have Schultz and Klink speak german with subtitles? Both actors ARE german (well Banner is Austrian) so they could.
The English version had both of them speak in fluent English but they did use German words from time to time. A classic show.
Yeah, Shultz spoke in a stereotypical German accent and Klink sounded like he was from Cambridge Massachusetts!
Ever notice that on the Mission:Impossible T.V. series, whenever the IMF team would be sent on a mission in a foreign country, all they needed to do to pass themselves off as natives was to speak English with an accent? I tried that in a bistro in Paris. Me and my three fellow Army pals were thrown out of the place. How come it worked for Peter Sellers?
mmeier
Joined: October 22, 2008
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 12:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextQuestion: Did the US-version of Hogans Heroes have Schultz and Klink speak german with subtitles? Both actors ARE german (well Banner is Austrian) so they could.
The English version had both of them speak in fluent English but they did use German words from time to time. A classic show.
Yeah, Shultz spoke in a stereotypical German accent and Klink sounded like he was from Cambridge Massachusetts!
Ever notice that on the Mission:Impossible T.V. series, whenever the IMF team would be sent on a mission in a foreign country, all they needed to do to pass themselves off as natives was to speak English with an accent? I tried that in a bistro in Paris. Me and my three fellow Army pals were thrown out of the place. How come it worked for Peter Sellers?
At least in the new series the answer is simple: The enemy was to busy oggling Terry Markwell or Jane Badler. That works VERY well in France
After all the german word "Visimatenten" (Making trouble, mischief) comes from the offer made by french occupation soldiers (18th/19th century) to german girls "Visite ma tente"
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