Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Potential Feature: German for Modellers
PzAufkl
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 05:32 AM UTC
Hi all,
Just thought of something else deserving a little explanation: Berge-Panther, -Tiger, -Leopard ... all of these aren't mountain-dwelling cats! True, "Berg", pl. Berge, means mountain. There is, however, a verb "bergen", (akin to English "bury", ask your Webster), meaning to shelter, to recover. So, a Berge-Panzer is a recovery tank.
As for pronunciation, I once again refer you to www.dict.leo.org - when you click on the loudspeaker symbol, a pop-up will offer "Deutsche Aussprache" (Ger. pron.), and you can listen to a pro (without an accent!) repeat the word as often as you can stand it.
Have fun!
Peter
Self-Propelled
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 05:43 AM UTC
Now that you mention the audio I remembered something that I always used to fool around with:

Natural Voices Demo

You can type in anything you want, select a voice in German (or another language) and behold! Have fun! The only thing you should note is that if you have a word consisting of multiple nouns like Sonderkraftfahrzeug you should write each one sperate like Sonder kraft fahrzeug, this sounds better.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 07:14 AM UTC
I am curious how the average non-German would pronounce Heuschrecke
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 07:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As for pronunciation, I once again refer you to www.dict.leo.org - when you click on the loudspeaker symbol, a pop-up will offer "Deutsche Aussprache" (Ger. pron.), and you can listen to a pro (without an accent!) repeat the word as often as you can stand it.


Leo is helpful, but the computer-generated voice is not clear in some cases. It's certainly worth looking at, though, and thanks for referring us to it!
SSGToms
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 07:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am curious how the average non-German would pronounce Heuschrecke


Never having heard it live, I say Hew-shrek-ah .
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 07:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I am curious how the average non-German would pronounce Heuschrecke


Never having heard it live, I say Hew-shrek-ah .



Spoken like, erah, a true New Englandah, erah,
Self-Propelled
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 07:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I am curious how the average non-German would pronounce Heuschrecke



Try Heu Schrecke on Natural Voices Demo!
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 08:10 AM UTC
You guys raise an interesting point (and it's Hoy shreck-uh): how many names for vehicles should be included in the list?

The Germans liked naming their stuff (no plain T-34s, for example). Of course we need the Tiger and Panther, but do we also need the Grille, Nashorn, Marder, Hetzer, Dicker Max, Wirbelwind, etc.? Some of these vehicles are fairly obscure, while others are more common.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 08:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You guys raise an interesting point (and it's Hoy shreck-uh): how many names for vehicles should be included in the list?

The Germans liked naming their stuff (no plain T-34s, for example). Of course we need the Tiger and Panther, but do we also need the Grille, Nashorn, Marder, Hetzer, Dicker Max, Wirbelwind, etc.? Some of these vehicles are fairly obscure, while others are more common.



How about adding Drehbar Becherhalter als Panzermannschaften? That translates to "Hinged Cupholder for Tank Crews".
Self-Propelled
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 08:29 AM UTC
Tiger - Tiger
Panther - Panther

Grille - Cricket
Nashorn - Rhinoceros
Marder - Marten
Hetzer - Agitator (I think baiter is a bad translation)
Dicker Max - Fat Max
Wirbelwind - Whirlwind
Puma - Cougar
Heuschrecke - Locust
Brummbär - growling bear
Jagdtiger - hunting tiger
Hummel - Bumblebee
Wespe - Wasp
Möbelwagen - U-Haul ^^
Elephant - Elefant

It goes on and on...
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 09:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hetzer - Agitator (I think baiter is a bad translation)



Hetzer is the German word for badger.



But, why am I telling you this?!? You're supposed to know that. It's your friggin' word, right?
Self-Propelled
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 09:12 AM UTC
Badger is Dachs actually. ^^

Hetzer comes from the verb hetzen, jemanden aufhetzen means to agitate someone.
Gorizont
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:11 AM UTC
Hetzer is the German word for badger.
"Hetzer", is an uncommon word of a person who haunts persons. (as I know, it is not used today - also in an other reason)
It´s another "type" of "jagen" or in english "haunting".

Sebastian also said it correctly.

greetings...
Soeren
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Badger is Dachs actually. ^^

Hetzer comes from the verb hetzen, jemanden aufhetzen means to agitate someone.



Do me a favor. In the future, please don't allow facts to get in the way of a badger photo.
Self-Propelled
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:37 AM UTC
Soeren raises a good point with his explanation. Quite a few words that you may find in speaches or military German of the first half of the 20th century might not be too common in today's German anymore. I personally feel that the extinction of traditional words occurs much faster in German than in lets say English, the language has undergone a lot of changes in terms of vocabulary in the last 100 years. I feel it is becoming more and more English because we adopt a lot of words from you guys unlike the French who don't even adopt the common hi-tech terms but rather invent their own. It just shows that we don't cling to our language and value its uniqueness as much as others might.
Self-Propelled
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Bayern, Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Do me a favor. In the future, please don't allow facts to get in the way of a badger photo.



Forgive me, I have ignored it's awkward cuteness.
PzAufkl
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Germany
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:48 AM UTC
Noooooooo, guys ! Let's not make this more confusing than it already is:

Hetzer is NOT, repeat NOT, a four-legged badger! It's a noun formed after "hetzen", denominating someone who does that; namely a) chase, set the hounds on, "badger" someone; b) agitate

Go figure which was meant when naming a low-silhouetted tank killer.

Peter
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 10:52 AM UTC
Brummbär is translated Grizzly bear, not growling bear.

And Königstiger translates to Bengal Tiger, NOT King Tiger....

But what I would also appreciate is when the correct name is placed on the correct vehicle.

Alot of names actually are not from WW2 but from later dates.

The Sturmpanzer IV was not called Brummbär at all during WW-2, but simply StuPa by the troops.

The name Hetzer was introduced for the E-25, but the name got attached to the JagdPanzer 38(t) due to the fact Skoda was contracted to produce the first trial hulls. During interogations some official from Skoda got this mixed up and it has entered the world of erroneous facts.

Another often used name is that of Zwischenlösung for the JagdPanzer IV Alkett, this too is not official, but a post war creation.

Leopard, a name given to a couple of projected recon panzers, has crept into the the books being plastered on just about EVERY recon panzer.

Even Gepard seems to have become a general name for AA-panzer, even though it was not used until the Leopard 1 version from the 70's.

Anyhoo, apart from these vehicle names, what about functional names?

Like Sanitätskraftwagen? Flakmesstrupwagen? Schwere WehrmachtSchlepper?

There's such an abundance of names around it would be almost a complete bookwork to get all translated.
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 11:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There's such an abundance of names around it would be almost a complete bookwork to get all translated.


The original purpose of the article is to include help for the MOST COMMON terms. As Herbert points out, this can go on and on and on and on.

HiWi
Rudeltacktik
Gummipuppen
Feldgendarme
KZLager
Lazarette
Vergeltungswaffe
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 11:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Brummbär is translated Grizzly bear, not growling bear.

And Königstiger translates to Bengal Tiger, NOT King Tiger....

But what I would also appreciate is when the correct name is placed on the correct vehicle.

Alot of names actually are not from WW2 but from later dates.

The Sturmpanzer IV was not called Brummbär at all during WW-2, but simply StuPa by the troops.

The name Hetzer was introduced for the E-25, but the name got attached to the JagdPanzer 38(t) due to the fact Skoda was contracted to produce the first trial hulls. During interogations some official from Skoda got this mixed up and it has entered the world of erroneous facts.

Another often used name is that of Zwischenlösung for the JagdPanzer IV Alkett, this too is not official, but a post war creation.

Leopard, a name given to a couple of projected recon panzers, has crept into the the books being plastered on just about EVERY recon panzer.

Even Gepard seems to have become a general name for AA-panzer, even though it was not used until the Leopard 1 version from the 70's.

Anyhoo, apart from these vehicle names, what about functional names?

Like Sanitätskraftwagen? Flakmesstrupwagen? Schwere WehrmachtSchlepper?

There's such an abundance of names around it would be almost a complete bookwork to get all translated.



You, sir, are correct. Most nicknames attributed to the Germans for the vehicles were, in fact, coined by the Allies or, by post-war armchair know-it-alls who wanted flashy terms. German troops didn't call Sdkfz 251s "Sdkfz 251s". They called them Scheutzenpanzer. Only post-war historians and rivet-counting hobbyists do as a way to ascribe to themselves some sort of superior knowledge of the subject matter.

When asked what type of tanks were attacking his unit's position, a soldier replied, "What type of tanks?!? The enemy's! That's what type!!!! Whose do you think would be attacking us, you jackass!"
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 11:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

There's such an abundance of names around it would be almost a complete bookwork to get all translated.


The original purpose of the article is to include help for the MOST COMMON terms. As Herbert points out, this can go on and on and on and on.

HiWi
Rudeltacktik
Gummipuppen
Feldgendarme
KZLager
Lazarette
Vergeltungswaffe



This thread is being redirected to Cuba, Senor Beel.
SSGToms
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 12:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You guys raise an interesting point (and it's Hoy shreck-uh): how many names for vehicles should be included in the list?

The Germans liked naming their stuff (no plain T-34s, for example). Of course we need the Tiger and Panther, but do we also need the Grille, Nashorn, Marder, Hetzer, Dicker Max, Wirbelwind, etc.? Some of these vehicles are fairly obscure, while others are more common.


I was going to address this but Herbert beat me to it. Hetzer, Bison, Dicker Max, Sturer Emil are all post war Allied labels. Gepard seems to be the fault of Dragon! There are probably more that haven't been debunked yet; alleged nicknames are a whole separate ugly can of worms.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 01:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

You guys raise an interesting point (and it's Hoy shreck-uh): how many names for vehicles should be included in the list?

The Germans liked naming their stuff (no plain T-34s, for example). Of course we need the Tiger and Panther, but do we also need the Grille, Nashorn, Marder, Hetzer, Dicker Max, Wirbelwind, etc.? Some of these vehicles are fairly obscure, while others are more common.


I was going to address this but Herbert beat me to it. Hetzer, Bison, Dicker Max, Sturer Emil are all post war Allied labels. Gepard seems to be the fault of Dragon! There are probably more that haven't been debunked yet; alleged nicknames are a whole separate ugly can of worms.




Blame Krauss-Maffei Wegmann. The Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer Gepard (Cheetah) was developed by KMW, starting in 1963. That's the actual name of the system.
H_Ackermans
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 02:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

You guys raise an interesting point (and it's Hoy shreck-uh): how many names for vehicles should be included in the list?

The Germans liked naming their stuff (no plain T-34s, for example). Of course we need the Tiger and Panther, but do we also need the Grille, Nashorn, Marder, Hetzer, Dicker Max, Wirbelwind, etc.? Some of these vehicles are fairly obscure, while others are more common.


I was going to address this but Herbert beat me to it. Hetzer, Bison, Dicker Max, Sturer Emil are all post war Allied labels. Gepard seems to be the fault of Dragon! There are probably more that haven't been debunked yet; alleged nicknames are a whole separate ugly can of worms.




Blame Krauss-Maffei Wegmann. The Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer Gepard (Cheetah) was developed by KMW, starting in 1963. That's the actual name of the system.



Bit of trivia, the Bundeswehr and the Dutch Landmacht both call the system Gepard, the Belgian army however, calls it the Caesar, and it has a different radar system.

And those vehicles are still in first line service, more than 40 years on.

Regarding Krauss-Maffei, no one calls the SdKfz 7 a Krauss-Maffei of KraMa, while everyone calls the SdKfz 9 a FAMO.

Same with the 251, that one is also nicknamed HANOMAG for the designing company, and the 250 DEMAG. Multiple plants produced this vehicle. Still, seeing as the design company's name is used, that can be excused.

But calling a Tiger-B either a Henschel or Porsche.... argh...

BTW, both HANOMAG and DEMAG are abreviations. Hannoverische Machinenfabrik AG and Deutsche Maschinenbau-Aktiengesellschaft.

And getting back to correct names, a Tiger-B would correctly be named a number of options, depending on the timeframe.

Some even have a rather unexpected name. The actual name for the Panther-G is Panther mit entzwickelte wanne, or Panther with dewedged hull.

An early name for the Tiger-B was simply Tiger mit langen 88mm KwK, as the whole idea was to have a Tiger with the L/71 gun.

So making a list opens up a whole slew of what goes in and what not.

SSGToms
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 03:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Blame Krauss-Maffei Wegmann. The Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer Gepard (Cheetah) was developed by KMW, starting in 1963. That's the actual name of the system.


I should have been more specific. Dragon is to blame for recently (and erroneously) putting the Gepard name on the Flakpanzer 38t of WW II. Italeri and Tristar blindly followed suit.