I agree with Jim, I mistakenly posted my first model in the ‘Armor’ Forum for comments. The comments from Sabot, m75 and Scoccia really helped me out, as my drawback is painting the model and not building it. Looking at- and reading reviews on other posted models has also helped tremendously.

If I do post another model for comments it will be here and I do hope people give truthful (If somewhat subdued) responses. I still have a lot to learn about model building and painting, the positive and constructive feedback I got as well as the encouragement Gunnie gave me has led me on to joining other campaigns and starting more adventurous projects.

Keep it up Guys!

Let me start off by laying my cards on the table...! I'm a newbie - I've only been here a month...

I looked at other sites, such as Hyperscale and Modeling Madness, and where Armorama blows the others into oblivion is in its sense of community. Sometimes I've been horrified by the level of spite and vindictiveness that's come out in posts on other sites.

For me, the most important thing about Armorama is the friendliness and encouragement I've received from minute one... that, above any other reason, is why I'm proud to call Armorama "Home".

Of course, this comes with a price... when I first saw the Rivet Review Board - I thought twice about posting any pics there! Surely the standards would be too high... anything I submitted would be massacred!

In fact, it seems to have become a showcase... (and I'm the first to admit that it's a thrill when people take the trouble to comment kindly on my efforts) ... but that's not what the RRB is, supposedly, for.

Rather than trying to justify our own contributions to RRB, maybe now is a good time to take a breath and reconsider what the RRB was created for and, if need be, break it into two forums (fora?) to redefine its intended purpose and what it has evolved into:

1. a "Constructive Criticism" forum, where members can seek - and expect - help...HELP being the operative word.

2. a "Showcase" forum, where members can post pics of their latest projects. Inevitably, this would become a kind of "gallery" - but that's what the RRB is at the moment...

Having two separate forums would solve the problem of knowing how to respond (as Siggi has pointed out) but, if this distinction is made, we must all stick to it and avoid having to face this soul-searching again...

All the best

Rowan

Rowan,
Newbie...lol...I always loved that word.

You are indeed correct. In fact in the end we will have two seperate forums in the soon to be released (yeah yeah I know I keep saying that) Photo Post area which will allow users to upload pics directly to the site. Whoo hoo.. no more image urls and MSN uploading!

So all in good time my padawan learner.

Jim

I got into this post alittle late but I would like to say something..
Im sorry for starting all of this stuff about criticism on models, if it wasnt for me vodnik wouldnt have had to say the things he did not that they were bad. Im still going to post pictures of my models even if I recieve good or bad comments. Everything I get reply wise on my models helps me to become a better modeler which in the long run will help other modelers out when I start offering advice.
So I appologize for getting us started on the criticism,
James

Give me a break James! :-) You don't shoulder any blame here. All you did is post a model in the RRB in the hopes of getting some feedback I'm assuming. You got a great piece of constructive criticism that hopefully will help you to become a better modeler which is the hope of us all (I'm also assuming this). You did nothing wrong IMHO and therefore have no need to apologize. Please don't let this little flap frighten you into not posting in the future as we all learn from everyone's builds and especially when someone who is a bit more knowledgable provides a bit of constructive criticism. I think you are doing a good job and with each model you build you will continue to get better and part of that getting better should be due to comments like the one you recieved from Pawel. Keep up the good work.

My attitude is very similar to Adam's. I'll look, then post a few tips or suggestions if I think I can contribute something to the builder's knowledge. Sometimes the photos are so bad, I don't waste my time.

I try not to "rip" a model because I know that not everyone has been building as long as some of us or has the same resources or skills. If I see something that impresses me -- I'm talking a good, clean build and a nice finish -- I may be inspired to chime in with a "nice job," but I'll almost always ask a question so I can learn something -- especially if I spot a particular technique or material I might want to someday try myself.

If nothing catches my eye, I'm incline not to post -- I'll just have a look and move on. And frankly, I'm simply not interested in some subjects, including most aircraft and the endless stream of German stuff.

As long as I'm on my soapbox, one thing about Armorama that has always kind of bugged my is the rank system. Sometimes I get the feeling that some of the less mature members of our forum post on just about every thread just to push their rank higher. It sometimes becomes challenging to sift through all the "attaboys" to find the answer to a question I may be seeking. BTW, I also find it hilarious that one member of this forum has made general rank by posting not much more than the words "NICE JOB" a few thousand times.

To me the whole purpose of criticisium is to learn. I have learned allot from the good and/or bad remarks from my fellow modelers. I have had some guys tell me, (not knowing that the kit they were talking about was mine), say that this and that really needs to be done a different way and that other things on the kit were just totally wrong. I took note of the flaws and things and learned what to look for on the next model. To learn from ones mistakes, and others comments, is how your model building skills improve.


Just my 2 cents worth....


(++)

Got here a little late too.. But I felt that I need to throw my 0.02 cent in here.
Yes the RRB is for consrtuctive criticism, unfortunately the term has a wide range, many definitions and is open to interpitation of the individuals both reading and posting comments.
Now from what I am gathering, if I see a post of someone's work on the RRB and I can see nothing wrong with the build, paint or the scheme of the model. Then according to some (and this is my interpitation of what is being said). I am not suppose to comment on that individuals work. You have to ask yourself if that is constuctive. I know if I posted a model like that. With no apparent flaws( in my dreams) and noone posted I would think noone was interested in my work. Thus that would probably keep me from posting any work at all.
I can see both sides of the coin here and splitting up the thread I think would be a major mistake.
Constucive criticism is taking the good with the bad. I think no matter what you do. The problem will still be there.
James this is not at all you fault.. Keep building and posting as we all are in this togather
Paul

As another relative newbie (it's Jim's site, so I'm happy to use his preferred word), I'm a little reluctant to weigh in on this issue that has drawn so much attention from the lions of this site. However...

I tend to think that posting on the RRB is like showing your model, whether in-progress or complete, to a set of good friends who share your interest in models. Some of your friends will offer nothing but praise; some will ask questions that may or may not be subtly disguised suggestions; and others will more bluntly, but still gently and with affection, offer criticism that is intended to help. If you've chosen your friends well, no one will be strident, rude, or dismissive (unless they can make you laugh really hard as a result).

Armorama seems to be a place where the friends are well-chosen. I think a wide range of responses ought to be deemed acceptable.

It seems to me that the only real risk of the many, many highly positive comments that get posted is to make those that offer suggestions seem more critical than they are. I think this is what happened with Pawel's post, which was not merely polite, but extremely constructive and a potential learning lesson for anyone building a similar kit in the future. (I suppose bandwidth ain't cheap, though, so Jim may have another point in trying to generate only productive posts.) Perhaps a periodic reminder that thoughtful criticism is both encouraged and appreciated is all that is needed....

Of course, there's another way to look at this: Isn't it a nice change to have excessive politeness as a problem in a community? #:-)

Jim,

I would like to suggest that you make another forum named "Model Showcase" so that you could let the ones who don't want any comments or constructive criticism to post and share their finished kits with us.

As usual I seem to be representing the corset manufacturers - I'm bringing up the rear.

The problem with being in the antipodes, is that we have finished our today before you northerners have even started, so we are forever having to go back to yesterday just to keep up!

I am all for rules but I do think we can get a bit carried away with what you can or cant do.

If I posted a pic of a model -which I cant do 'cos I cant make the system work- and if it was good enough to see - which they arent 'cos my 40 year old Pentax is dying - then I would expect a response. If my model was so good that the only response was to say it was good then surely that is better than a deathly silence?

How on earth am I to decide if the model is too good to post in RRB until after I have posted it in RRB to find out how good it is?

I do think that RRB should be primarily about under construction models as this gives others an insight into the 'nuts and bolts' of how other modellers work. If I can get some decent pics of my half constructed Chieftain I will certainly be attempting to post them and you can all be as rude as you like.

And please Jim, no more forums. We have the problem already of the same subject being discussed by different people in different forums. I suggest we reduce forums, for instance General should include Tools, and possibly Paint.

And if we are to have military correctness in obeying instructions how about addressing the annoying habit of people not posting in the correct forum.

As for the language thing I would like to congratulate all those to whom English is not a first language for their excellent posts. Oh that I could write half as well in their native language.

I am probably too late for anyone to read this but at least I have contributed in my usual self-deprecating manner, politely and with humour - and with unseen tongue in cheek!
Regards Dave

Hi everybody. What an interesting debate. For what it's worth I got the impression that the RRB is for in progress pics of models to allow guys to comment on work done "so far". This allows any faults to be pointed out so that the builder can correct them if possible before the next stage is commenced. I must admit I am guilty of posting "Hey great work" without adding any more but I guess it is a way of acknowledging that I've looked at the post. In most cases the standards are better than mine and I do not have the neccessary knowledge of the subject to give any help or advice. Sometimes I see something that does not look right but cannot offer reasons why or what to do about it so I do not post anything. On the one occasion I have posted my work it was of a finished project and it went into the Aircraft Talk forum rather than the RRB because I was "showcasing" rather than asking specifically for faults to be put forward. (Any criticisms would have been gratefully received in any case but it wasn't the reason for the post). Having read the thread that started this discussion I guess it shows how passionate we can get about the hobby both in trying to help other guys and also in trying to keep the friendly atmosphere that is such a great part of this site.
Martin

Wow, I got into this way late!!!

Anyway, I am torn in my views about what this forum's true "mission" is. I really enjoy looking at the in-progress pictures of the projects (sometimes I hate to see them get painted!), and try to give little tidbits where I can (which is mostly just words of encouragment). When I posted my OIF Bradley pictures here I got a lot of positive feedback and it really made me feel good about my model, and when someone had some criticisms (what a terrible word!) or questions they either PM'd me or emailed me directly.

I believe that it is truly hard to judge the intentions of the person making the comments. But this is as close as many of us can get to having the gang over and sitting around the the kitchen table talking about models So I guess we have to take the good with the bad and hope that it makes us a better person/modeler/piggie. I think sometimes we need a little pat on the back from our friends just to know that they care about us and what we are doing, since again many of us are alone in our modeling pursuits.

-Chris (newbie)

Hi to all ,

I want also say something about our forum and discussion - Don't be angry but I think noone from us could called Master of Masters in modelling - we do mistake and we learn how avoid this watching every RivetReview Post , Books , Tech. info...etc.. - I think constructive criticism is sometimes a positive criticism - if ( for example ) I never done a Tank - and see how My friend with difficulty do the hard Job - or some details in aircraft are perfect done in another post - what should I say ??? If I want to do the same in My model , I only could be jealous - He/She do it first , He/She has courage to show us a model, great job , I liked - I think we are not a "aplle polishers" - we are only friendly with simple words - (this is a idea for a site community) - If something is very good - we only increase morale of modelers , if there is a mistake also information is in the posts - Idea is still working in Rivet Review Posts !!!!!