Folks,
I think it's great that the Rivet Review Board has been gaining in usage and popularity recently. That said I think it's important to point out "why" this forum even exists. It's designed to serve one purpose; for user to get constructvie criticism about their in-progress or built kits. It's is not a showcase forum where everyone says "great kit", "wonderful job", etc. etc. Please read my first post here (linked above in the forum description) for the rules.

To those posting. If you are not prepared to get constructive comments then please post your images in the respective forum (a/c, armor, figures, etc). That is fine as there is no "rule" that you must use the Rivet Review Board to post kit images.

For those posting. See above. Assume they want constructive criticism. Provide same.

:)

Remember everyone, this site is as much a resource as it is a community. It is VERY important that this site is taken seriously as a modeling resource. If that means that the Rivet Review Board is one of the few forums here where professionalism is preferred and neighborly condescension is not. Then so be it. I think we can afford to have one truly serious board on the site.

Thank you for listening. I do not require any response to this request.

Jim

Jim I have decided to put in my 2 cents worth as well. I look at some of the models here and yes I do comment on some. Mainly on the workmanship. Mainly to give encouragement to the people who have done the kit. I know that this is what I like about posting my pics on here, the boost of people saying 'Wow what a build'. ' you did well'. and so on. And yes if I detect a fault I try to comment on it in a friendly manner. What I would like to see is this forum split up into it's different groups. For example Armor, Aeroplanes etc.

that's my thoughts anyway, whatever they are worth.

I'm with Cliff, I think that if someone cannot identify any problem what's wrong in saying that he likes it? If there's something wrong in my view I just try to tell it politely. I think that the original poster if does not see any reply, because there's simply nothing to criticize or to comment, are not motivated to post again. In my opinion there's also the risk that we will will end up like often happens in the official model contests, where you often hear people (who has to judge the models too) saying only absurd things like "the colour it's wrong, at least it nedded 1,5% more white in the camo color..." and so on. Is this what we want?
Ciao

I concur. I often see a finished kit that is crying out to be 'put straight' but mostly all I see is 'everyone' being polite and saying nice (undeserved) stuff. Being a noob around here I've actually held back and bitten my tongue nine times out of ten. My general policy now is to say nothing unless a model really blows me away, in which case I wax lyrical, or it is almost entirely pukka with just one or two deficiencies.

Nobody is being done any favours with politeness, but nor do we want to dishearten and discourage beginners and progressors. Maybe the admin here could establish a unique Armorama shorthand so that it could be applied to posts here? eg: a one-to-ten rating with the definitions of each rating being held on a special page? It would be so much easier to say to somebody "Hey, that's not a bad Tiger mate, but it needs a bit of work...I give it a 5/10." Then the person who submitted the pics could go to the ratings page and see that 5/10 means 'Good build, basic camo good but weathering/zim/tracks/powder/whatever could do with a bit of work'.

Just chucking out some broad ideas off the top of my head.

As my recent critical posts caused the whole discussion about the rules of this forum, I'll add my short comments here.

Actually I agree that "positive only" comments are welcome, needed, much appreciated, and I'm really happy when I see them posted about my models. I indeed wrote before that such comments are theoretically "against the rules", but only because I was called "nitpicking rivet counter", while actually what I did was strictly following the forum rules: giving constructive criticism.

So my point is - If you trully think that the model is well done, and you can see nothing to criticise, than OK - just write a short comment. Author of the model will love it, I know, cause I do love it :-)

BUT, if you see any problem with the model, even a minor one, than write about it as well! This is what this forum is about. Modeler can only learn on his mistakes if he is aware of them! So accept the fact that constructive criticism of the models is the main goal of this forum and don't attack those who criticise! You can disagree with the opinion of the critic, but don't attack him just for being critical.

Best Regards,
Pawel

Maybe it is also a good idea to remind all of us that this community consist of almost 3000 members spread around the globe and that we have to keep in mind that not everybody has a good grammatical grasp of English.

Also this is a written forum, and writing can not show emotions (emoticons are no real substitute) so it is good to keep this in the back of your head when you read a (critical) response.

A response can look very aggressive but in reality it is not. The history of this site has shown that this is a friendly bunch of people with a common hobby, so presume that the response is also meant in a friendly and helpful way.

As Jim said




Let it be and lets us focus on modeling

Just my 2 cents

I think all points are relevant. When I post I look forward to hearing comments made and want constructive critism. The "by the book" review forum is great for that. But it is also nice to get some nice remarks ...... and especially as beginner, gaining confidence, it is a great help.
I guess most of us have the same backgrounds ......... who do you show your work to? The wife has the same line all the time "its lovely honey!!" which is comforting, but its hard to beat getting support and advise from your peers and modelling comrades!
I will always try to write something more than "its awesome", even if i cant see anything wrong, I will comment on whats good and what I liked about the model!
But a bit of repect for you fellow modeller goes a long way as well!

I agree to the above whole-heartedly. Constructive comments are nedded. I recently added a thread re my M13/40 and was pleased with the results. Good solid questions, and advice.

Hmm....I understand what many of your are saying about positive comments being a good thing and I agree. Just keep this primary point in mind. If the modeler is posting in the Rivet Review Board then he WANTS to see critical comments. If the model is 90%+ perfect then their is really no reason to post it there. This person can just submit his pics to us and I am reasonably sure we will do an OnDIsplay feature piece on it.

Do I need to change the name of the forum to "The Constructive Criticism Forum" as this topic name hinted at?

Cheers,
Jim

I think that's a nice idea...

Gunnie

Jim,

The problem is that you never really know if your model is perfect or not. I posted a few pictures of my models and only got positive feedback. But it doesn't mean that I was sure it will be this way. I have a lot of reference material to use in my current project - M923A1 truck, so I can add a lot of details . But I have never seen any such vehicle "in flesh", so I still can make some mistakes. And there is a lot of ex-, or even active duty US military servicemen here, reading these posts, who see this stuff every day. If there is some problem in my model they will see it, and I want to know it! And I want to know it before the model is finished so I still can correct it.
So I will keep posting new pictures even though I'm sure I'm doing a good job with my model, because nobody's perfect - I also can make a mistake and not be aware of it.

The current forum name is great, no need to change it!

Regards,
Pawel

think maybe we need 2 forums as well but haveing "nice comments" does help especaily when you have tried a new techniquie ok it;'s got it's place in the new forum as well but the kind words do help you to try other things and not everyone may take the comment's the right way

I, for one, think your comments were extremely helpful and well thought out. A LOT of work went into your post. Your post was not aimed at making the builder feel belittled and his reply indicates that he appreciated the comments.

Now for the guy who accused you of being a nitpicking rivet counter and the rest of the jackels that piled onto that heap...I lost a lot of respect for them. Nothing in your post indicated any rivet counting or nitpicking. I don't think he knew what he was talking about.

Gentlemen:

Some good comments being made in this thread regarding the Rivet Review Issue here at Armorama.

Hopefully all discussion of this issue (within this thread), can be maintained at a professional level.


ps:
Jim's quote from above "Thank you for listening. I do not require any response to this request."-----> Jim almost 270 views of this thread already, and about a dozen written replies!!!---I don't get this much coverage on the stuff I post in Rivet Review (LOL).

Just kidding Jim, good constructive commentary, (for the most part), going on this thread.



Regards:
Steve

Is this the time and place to ask that the Current Forum be reinstated?
DJ

I think constructive criticism is good. I'll be posting my pics soon of my first model I've ever built. And although positive comments and encouraging comments are certainly nice and give me an ego boost to try again, I also would want constructive criticism on where I could improve, or where I went wrong. Otherwise I'm not learning anything and the positive comments would be a false fabrication. This is a good forum and the people who come here, most of them anyway, want to hear constructive criticism and not just how great their models are.

Of course, don't get too heavy with that constructive criticism. The rivet review board has been excellent the way it is and I don't think anyone here has made any posts or comments that haven't been appropriate or overly critical, its a friendly place. And I think it should stay that way.

My 2 cents US. For what it's worth.. #:-)
What has made the RR worth posting in, for me, is the friendlimess of the other members. When I post in the RR, I am looking for helpful tips, advice and other constructive criticism. It's always helpful to get another perspective for ill or good. (sometimes I'm hyper critical of my own stuff) . I have always valued the suggestions I have recived, because they have been offered in a friendly way by knowlegeable folks :-) :-)

There are some other sites where the atmosphere is much less friendly. Populated by pompus buffons whose less knowlegeble input and hyper-criticism makes the hobby much less enjoyable for many of us.

I guess my point is: Let's not lose the comradeirie and friendliness that makes this site so much fun. :-) And, Remember, constructive criticism also consists of pointing out the strengths as well as the weakness of a fellow modeler.

(++)

Selrach family,
I'm with you at 200%!!!
Bravi!!!

DJ,
Err....no!

Mmmmm, Point taken Jim.
I am quite happy to take constructive criticism. One of the reasons I like to post here is to try and generate discussions over techniques. The other reason I post here is to help showcase aircraft models. Rather than riticising models, directly, I try and engage the modeller in a discussion over techniques, with the aim of offering a solution. When I first joined Armorama I thought it was almost exclusively armour. There are many more armour modellers here than do aircraft, lots of them post here as well. I am sort of trying to redress the balance.
Like I say though Jim, point taken. If you prefer I am happy to submit for an on display feature instead of posting here( might be a bit presumptuous though) :-)
Mal

I completely agree that the forum needs both good and bad comments when appropriate. As a modeler for many years, I tend to build for my own enjoyment and not the enjoyment of others. However, there is nothing better than first hand knowledge of a subject and I for one do not always have that. I have to rely on pictures and other references. So when I put something in the RR, I am looking for comments that will help and encourage. If I can not take criticism, then I have no business putting the model up for comments in the first place.

Everyone needs to remember that sincere criticism can only make a modeler better if presented properly. So when you make your comments, try and think how you would feel if it were your model up for discussion.

That's my view on this subject

Dave

Jim,
i thought you may want a comment from a young modeller.
I have just posted pics of my thunderbolt people have been giving me good advice.
i like it when people say good job , well done. But also appreciate it when people tell me what I can improve on or how to do it differently.
Armorama is site a friendly so I take thisadvice in because I know people are being friendly not just nit picking for the sake of it.

First of all I must confess that Ive recongnize my own thoughts very much in Siggis post.
With that said we must all agree upon what constructive critisism is and what it is not.

Constructive critisism is NOT:
Being polite.
Being rude.
Just saying that it isnt good.
Judging a beginner as he were a pro.

Constructive critisism IS:
Pointing out what is good and telling why.
Pointing out an error and mistake AND telling how to fix it.
Following a beginner and be involved in his development to say when he has improved or when he has not.
Learning and helping people.

Im sure that there are more that I have forgotten.

Critisism should be handled in this way when you recieve it:
First think about it, look at it the same way as critisizer does.
You can chose to give him right or not.
You can decide if the error is important to you.
You can agree that his right and it is important but still feel it isnt worth the trouble to correct.
You can correct it or choose to leave it as it is, perhaps to have in mind next time.
You also learn by every mistake you make.
If you are sure you like it the way it are just ignore the critisism.

Also be aware that the ones that spot and tell you the faults usually are youre real friends. This as they want you to improve. I now shall bore all of you with an anecdote from my life.
When I practised Martial Arts I often felt that Sensei were more picky and harder towards me than any other of his students in the same group. Especially as I though myself to be better than most of them. When I after a while had gathered enough courage to bring this up, he just said: Thats because you have the potential to be very skilled and therefore Im expecting more from you. Well, he though he was doing me a favor as he spent more time on me than on the other students. I now understand what he meant and I do hope you see how this example could be used also when it comes to constructive critisism. Im not sure though as english is my second language, its late and Ive had two beers.

Also I would like to say that without critisism, inspiration from others, sharing of ideas and techniques we wont develop as modellers. Or at least only a few of us will develop at a much slower pace.

Ive recently also seen some remarks when posters refers to other modellers as nitpickers and rivetcounters. I would like to say and add that every modeller is a nitpicker, rivetcounter or a besserwisser. Perhaps thats no coincidence? The only difference is the level and where one draws the line for what to ignore, neglect or accept. And that line can only be set for you, by you. Please have acceptance for both of these views.

I 100% completely agree with Jim on this. If you look back over my history of posting to the Rivet Review Board I have only posted when I thought that I could help the modeler. Writing to tell them that they have done a good job doesn't do anything but stroke their ego and seems to me to be unecessary. Unfortunately, every time I have posted one of my own models here all I get is a bunch of "great jobs" which don't do anything to help me improve as a modeler. In my opinion, that is the one thing that is keeping this site from being held in the same high regard among "serious" modelers as Missing Lynx and Track Link. All we do is kiss each others a**es when someone posts a model rather than provide the modeler with some feedback to help him/her get better. I really like the community that has been established here on Armorama. But anymore, the only reason that I visit the site is to look at what others are building and lend a hand where I can. I rarely get answers to my questions here due to the overly PC approach that people take here in the Rivet Review Board. It is great that we take the time here to learn a little about each other, but the focus of this site is modeling and I think that we should all keep that in mind. I went back and read the thread that Pawel got blasted in and didn't see anything wrong with his comments. I thought he acted as a perfect gentlemen and was genuinely just trying to help. He was doing exactly what we all should be doing. I am actually a bit upset that some people chose to give him grief rather than thank him for trying to lend a helping hand by pointing out a legitimate mistake made by the modeler. People that get so uptight about their models that they cannot accept constructive criticism need not post here. If all you want is to have your ego stroked post it in a different forum.

Just my 2 cents.