Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
Hosted by Darren Baker
Centurion Mk 5/1 RAAC
Heatseeker64
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Posted: Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 01:00 AM UTC
Just seen this thread Jaymes - looking good!

I reckon what you have there is a 1969-70 Aussie Cent still with the sheet metal guards (cut back) but minus the smoke projectors and with the spare wheels on the glacis.

Don't be too precious about the details, as these tanks changed almost week to week.

Put some jerries on the rear deck and a heap of parapahnalia in the basket ... hell, why don't you place a pump action 12 guage, M79 or AK next to the driver's hole?

I'm liking the progress!
redcap
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Posted: Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 01:29 AM UTC
Hi Jaymes,

The primer coat has really 'popped out' all the details. Great build so far and looking forward to seeing this MBT painted.

Well done mate!
Gary
Stickshift
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Posted: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 10:36 PM UTC
Looks very nice. On the second last photo looking down on the turret The mount for the 30cal flex is wrong and the ammo rack behind the cupola, as well as holding the 30 cal liners it also held a hand held radio to contact with troops on the ground There should be a bump in the rack where the radio was fitted. You may like to visit my site www.centurion-mbt.com there are heaps of photos, I have over 6000 on Centurions. Hope this is some help to you , you are doing a great job regards Col
PS Photos of the mount are in the Vietnam Veterans Museum site, page 4 and also the ammo rack with radio. This model is a bit larger than yours but has all the Vietnam mods.
Stickshift
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Posted: Sunday, January 16, 2011 - 11:44 PM UTC
Yeah I would like to see photos of 169043 in your shed but I feel you would have trouble starting it. Time you removed all the crap from the forums and tell people the truth, you never purchased that tank and it never left the owners property, all you did was stuff up a nice guy and put off his sale for over 12 months, and I may point out he had to drive to Qld to pick up the bits you took with you, at his own expense, you really piss me off Brenton, clean up your act, Col
newfish
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2011 - 02:02 AM UTC
Col thanks for commenting! I have two question for you though. Wasn't the radio in the Ammo rack a late war mod? also have you got a picture of the 30 cal mount? I am tempted to rp the mount and 30 cal racks off and start again but as I've stuck a base coat on it I will see.

newfish
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2011 - 02:25 AM UTC
Ive wanged a base coat of khaki drab although it's dark as i've edited the photo in photo shop so it looks nothing like the actual colour lol. It's a great start for colour modulation.



Stickshift
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2011 - 10:52 PM UTC
No, it was used at Balmoral and Coral, as the Centurions were British and the infantry used American radios as did the APC (American) so the PRC25 radio was used to contact the Infantry. I believe Mick Butler C C on 169069 at Balmoral had about four all tuned to different people. I have never seen an ammo rack without the radio fitting, even the Command tanks with an extra antenna on the back, had a cut down ammo rack, but it still had the radio compartment
Go to www.centurion-mbt.com Then select Synthasite Then go halfway down the page and you will see my sites. Select Vietnam Veterans Museum and go to page four. This shows me making a copy of the mount. Or contact me on stallchange @yahoo .com and I will send you photos, Regards Col
Heatseeker64
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Posted: Monday, January 17, 2011 - 11:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

No, it was used at Balmoral and Coral, as the Centurions were British and the infantry used American radios as did the APC (American) so the PRC25 radio was used to contact the Infantry. I believe Mick Butler C C on 169069 at Balmoral had about four all tuned to different people. I have never seen an ammo rack without the radio fitting, even the Command tanks with an extra antenna on the back, had a cut down ammo rack, but it still had the radio compartment
Go to www.centurion-mbt.com Then select Synthasite Then go halfway down the page and you will see my sites. Select Vietnam Veterans Museum and go to page four. This shows me making a copy of the mount. Or contact me on stallchange @yahoo .com and I will send you photos, Regards Col



The fact you've never seen an ammo rack without a radio fitting probably means that the earlier ones which were purely for ammo boxes had been replaced. The turret top ammo rack was one of the first Aussie Cent mods in Vietnam and I am very reliably informed that the first types did not have provision for the radio, probably because tank/infantry co-operation tactics were yet to evolve.

I built my 1968 Cent without provision for the radio in the rack:

Stickshift
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 12:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well I haven’t posted anything on here for a wile, I’ve been busy with college and women of late’ . I’ve been working on AFV Club’s Centurion Mk. 5/1 RAAC in Vietnam. It’s pretty much out of the box besides the Lionmarc replacement turret and the Eduard set for it. It’s pretty much ready for primer besides the driver’s hatches and the rear idler that needs repairing. Also I am slowly adding more PE items from the Eduard set so I can stall painting this again . Comments are welcome as I’m trying to make this as accurate as possible.














You are correct in that the scopes have to turn as the top covers hit the hull, and stops the locking bars connecting. Not sure what you mean by bin strength bars, but you may mean the American star picket that were cut and welded on the track bins. The only purpose of these were to protect the bin lid catches from being wiped off in the jungle, which happened on a daily basis until this in country mod was installed. Its looking good. I have added some photos of the 30 cal flex, to my photos on this site but have at this stage no idea how to access them. Regards Stickshift.
newfish
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 01:06 AM UTC
Alright pal. I got your email this morning thankyou. I am going to rip the 30 cal mount and the ammo rack off and scratch buld them out of plastic stock.
your gallery is here. link you can get it by clicking where it says photos on your posts or at the top of the site where it says your user name. Thanks I'll reply to your email shortly.

Mick thanks for your postI am going to have another look varying on which cent this will acually be and according to the book by Shane Lovell the early racks didn't have the compartment for the radio so really I can leave it as it is.

Jaymes
Stickshift
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Posted: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 06:13 PM UTC
Hi Mate, I have given the info on the photos of the mount. Re the ammo rack, I think I know where you picked up that information in a book. While its the best book on Vietnam Centurions available in Australia, and I use mine heaps, there are a few mistakes. I do not doubt the early racks may have been made like that, but I have seen most and driven a lot of the Australian Centurions, and located all of them. I have never seen a rack like that and contact to a few RAEME and LAD guys, and a few other Vets, no one can remember seeing one. I still have one guy to get back to me. Anyway it does not matter , but the point I make is I thought you were doing a late Vietnam Centurion, where as this rack will make it an early version, early1968. Keep up the good work, its miles in front of anything I could do, and you are doing an excellent job. All my advice is given with the intention of helping people, and is in no way critical, Regards Col
newfish
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 12:22 AM UTC
Col I really appreciate your help mate and don't worry your the one with the knowledge not me. So I really appreciate you taking the time and effort too help me I think I have the PE set which includes the late rack so i'll use that.
Thanks mate and I really appreciate your help! so If i'm in the wrong correct me I can take it i'd rather be right as I said i wanted to make it as accurate as possible.

Jaymes
Heatseeker64
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Posted: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 - 08:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Mate, I have given the info on the photos of the mount. Re the ammo rack, I think I know where you picked up that information in a book. While its the best book on Vietnam Centurions available in Australia, and I use mine heaps, there are a few mistakes. I do not doubt the early racks may have been made like that, but I have seen most and driven a lot of the Australian Centurions, and located all of them. I have never seen a rack like that and contact to a few RAEME and LAD guys, and a few other Vets, no one can remember seeing one. I still have one guy to get back to me. Anyway it does not matter , but the point I make is I thought you were doing a late Vietnam Centurion, where as this rack will make it an early version, early1968. Keep up the good work, its miles in front of anything I could do, and you are doing an excellent job. All my advice is given with the intention of helping people, and is in no way critical, Regards Col



Col, I love your resaerch and have the greatest respect for it, but saying that there is no evidence of ammo racks on Centurions is a bit like saying there is no evidence of Aussie M113A1 APCs with .50 cal flex mount open cupolas - there is photographic evidence they existed but there is little evidence of them today because all but one were fitted with a T50 turret.

Are we to surmise that Aussie Cents were never fitted with side skirts on the basis you've never seen one so outfitted in your extensive travels?

And, please, I mean no disrespect to your exemplary research.
Stickshift
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2011 - 11:40 PM UTC
Hi Mate, when you decide if your model will be a very early one of the later one you may want to see the 1/4 plate guards. The only ones I know of that are available to the public are on 169091 owned by Paul Scott. He has just removed the Vietnam guards from 169091 and photos are on my site at Steel Thunder 8, page 26. It appears that the center section of the original guards were left in place and the 1/4 inch plate ones were laid on top and fitted. I imagine the old guard acted as a holding platform for the very heavy plate. The only other one that I know of with these guards today, is 169108, which is stored out of public sight at the AWM storage shed in Canberra, Regards Col
Stickshift
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Posted: Sunday, January 23, 2011 - 11:54 PM UTC
Hi Mate, We should get some things straight. I am in no way picking on your statements. I think your model is great , and your workmanship is excellent. My statement on the ammo rack was that I have never seen one and if they were made like that early, I can not find anyone that has seen one. Non withstanding I cannot say they did not exist as they would have been replaced with the later model at some later date. I give my information out to many model makers as I find they are sticklers for being exact. My only concern is to help people that do not have the access that I do to the Centurions. Re accurate discriptions, just tonight I found proof of something I have been looking for the last few years, so there is still a lot out there to find and learn.
If you would like to email me at [email protected] I will send you a very interesting story, that will explain what I am saying, I take no offense at your comments and hope you do not take any from mine, keep up the good work, Regards Col
Stickshift
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 12:18 AM UTC
Hi Jaymes and Mick, sorry but I seem to be having a lot of trouble with this site, When I went in this time a lot is not showing of our comments, but five minutes ago it was all there. This seems to be a thing with model sites I find them all hard to move around in, maybe because I do not spend a lot of time on them. But I noticed I have answered Mick Toals when I thought I was replying to Jaymes. I apoligise, my stupid mistake. Re the APC's without the turret, I have a copy of the plans for the shields made up by the RAEME guys, if anyone needs them. Re the comment from Mick on teh side plates, I have seen them when I was in the Armoured Corps they all had them, in the early 1950's also when first in Vietnam and there is still one at the Pucka tank Museum today. I do take on board your statement that just because I have not seen them, I cannot say they did not exist, and I do not say that, only that I and the people I have contacted have never seen any? Which I feel is a fair statement. I back up my statements with photos, something I have to do as I was not in Vietnam and have to rely on what I am told and photo back ups. A heap of what I have been told does not appear on my site. But I am not here to argue with anyone. I just hope I have not offended anyone with my comments, Regards Col
Heatseeker64
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 01:38 AM UTC
No offence taken at all mate, just pointing out that most of the Cents you see around today were rebuilt to post Vietnam specs ... as a matter of fact, the so-called intact Vietnam era Centurion with the sheet metal guards and reinforced bins acquired by the Australian War Memorial doesn't even have its original turret.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 05:43 AM UTC
been kinda keeping an eye on this thread, as I have the same kit stashed away. Over here in the land of snow and ice we see very little data for RAAC military, and even less for Vietnam era equipment. Can you give us a couple recommended reads?

By the way, even with the wrong rack on it, I still like the track a bunch! Just looks right!
gary
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 06:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Over here in the land of snow and ice we see very little data for RAAC military, and even less for Vietnam era equipment. Can you give us a couple recommended reads?



Our fellow members from Down Under probably know about some other useful books but IMHO this one is worth the buy !



Frenchy
newfish
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 09:22 AM UTC
Gary I recommend this book.



Heatseeker64
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 02:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

been kinda keeping an eye on this thread, as I have the same kit stashed away. Over here in the land of snow and ice we see very little data for RAAC military, and even less for Vietnam era equipment. Can you give us a couple recommended reads?

By the way, even with the wrong rack on it, I still like the track a bunch! Just looks right!
gary



Aussie Cents constantly evolved in Vietnam ... you can find a detail article about my 70-71 Cent The Very Diabolical here:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/2671
Stickshift
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 04:46 PM UTC
Not sure if its been missed or just not done yet, but behind the cupola lid are two Y shaped brackets, you have the left one fitted but the right one is missing. These were for mounting the flex .30 cal when not in use. I have never seen it used and have never heard from anyone that has, but thats what they were for. Will add some more photos to my album, regards Col
Stickshift
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Posted: Monday, January 24, 2011 - 08:58 PM UTC
Well it sure looked out of place with a 105 barrel, but that has been changed to B Barrel now. The AWM made a few mistakes with their tanks, like saying 169080 was 169017. But then everyone does make mistakes, that is often how we learn things. I have a guy that should know better, being a Vet and still active with the Pucka Museum and the 1st Armoured Regiment Association, who pointed out that the tank at the V V Museum had a number of faults, items that were not used in Vietnam. I was able to send him about four photos, on each point, proving him 100% incorrect. I would like to know where you obtained your information from, re the very early ammo racks, so as I could enter it onto my site. Regards Col
Heatseeker64
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 - 12:04 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well it sure looked out of place with a 105 barrel, but that has been changed to B Barrel now. The AWM made a few mistakes with their tanks, like saying 169080 was 169017. But then everyone does make mistakes, that is often how we learn things. I have a guy that should know better, being a Vet and still active with the Pucka Museum and the 1st Armoured Regiment Association, who pointed out that the tank at the V V Museum had a number of faults, items that were not used in Vietnam. I was able to send him about four photos, on each point, proving him 100% incorrect. I would like to know where you obtained your information from, re the very early ammo racks, so as I could enter it onto my site. Regards Col



The tanks were stripped of their guns and engine decks to reduce their weight so they could be lifted on to a contracted Japanese vessel for the trip home

I would presume that because the Leopard deal had been sealed and the Kraut tanks were due to arrive in 76-77, it was decided not to bother with the thorough re-build of the final Vietnam Cents and it's very possible they were monstered even further for spares once back in Australia.

They probably would have been considered junk and I know for a fact a few went to firing ranges.

I have seen some photos of one other surviving final Vietnam Cent hull and it has a weird engine deck (looks like a Mk1-2) and a Mk3 turret complete with bustle hatch.

1 Brigade in Darwin has a Vietnam modded Cent hull "holding ground" ... it was first at Holsworthy in Sydney.

I am yet to take another close look at this vehicle, but can only assume that it was chosen on the basis of its hull number as a veteran and "cobbled together" to make it "look right".

For many years there was a mine damaged Cent outside the Australian War Memorial in Canberra and it is now at the Pucka museum - when it came back to Australia the hull was totally stripped, so when it was put back together for display it most probably didn't get its own turret back. As a matter of fact, it almost certainly got running gear and track "from the pile" and it has never had a long range fuel tank is its display configuration.

I'd reckon that the final Aussie Vietnam Cents went one way when they came back, their guns and decks went another way, and the hulks were further scavenged before finally ending up on a range ... I think I shot one with an 84mm Carl Gustav at Majura range near Canberra in the 1980s.

One relatively intact vehicle acquired by the AWM is the M113A1 Carrier 134192, which was "quarantined" once it came back from East Timor to Bandiana for re-build in 2003. The carrier had done three tours of Vietnam and was in Rwanda in white paint. It didn't knock up the track mile in Africa, so it was repainted over the white, and today traces can be seen on the top deck where blokes have been walking around.

When I saw 134192 it was only missing the canvas mantlet cover (removed and destroyed by customs) and it was fitted with earlier sprockets and T50 track, but the AWM insisted that it be preserved in the state it was when it left Timor - right down to obscene graffiti.

134192 was fitted with worn out Diehl track and sprockets to represent its final configuration, but essentially remains intact ... it was spooky to see that vehicle at Bandina some nine years after I rode around Kigali in it ...

Regards the VV Museum Cent, I reckon its terrific - no two of the Vietnam tanks were the same, and they chnaged often week to week. The Very Diabolical that I modelled had angle iron brush guards around the aerial bases which were not an "official" RAEME mod and were not in evidence of any other photo of any tank I've seen.

trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 - 05:34 AM UTC
The Australian Army was posted way, way south of my A.O. (300+ kilometers), and the only thing we knew about the in I-Corps was that they were in country. For the better part of thirty years I assumed they were light infantry or several CAV units. But I did actually see one Australian Army guy one time down in Cam Rhon Bay. The guy still sticks in my mind to this very day, as he was a virtual twin for John Wayne! Maybe 6' 4" tall, but looked like an identical twin.

A tank with two and a half years of steady combat over there is done! Probably had a Kentucky rebuild twice in that time frame. Now you make that five or six years of constantly beating it up, and you really get a good idea on just how good the tank design was! On the otherhand, I've seen M48's piled up like empty beer cans in a trash can in Chu Lai! Perhaps the hulls were rebuildable (most looked like they'd been opened up with a can opener); I don't know. They should have had one down at the Patton Museum before they killed it.

Lastly; thanks for the info on the books and I'll put an order in for them this week!
gary