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DML #6564 T-34/76 m43 with Commanders Coupola
Vartotojas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Joined: May 12, 2010
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Posted: Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 07:42 PM UTC

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on 2010-06-17 07:24, Vartotojas wrote:
You said that for a classical Factory 183 made tank (three hinges and four bolts on the angled outside edges) you can use parts L5 and L6 (the lower and upper rear plate respectively). For a Factory 174, et al, use parts B22 and G5 with the two hinges and five bolts. (There is a slight problem here in that G5 represents a version of the final drive housing, albeit with simplified detail, associated more with Factory 183 and it may be somewhat more correct to use part L5 but remove the center hinge).




OK, here's the thing: Factory 183 UTZ (we "think", that is, the housing associates for the better part with tanks identifiable with UTZ) produced a uniquely shaped housing for the final drive gears, one of a couple designs they used.
This housing was more angular (something more of a truncated cone shape) as opposed to the common rounded profile. Part G5 represents the more angular type but with the two hinge arrangement rather than three.

Like I said, this is not the only version that UTZ used, they also having the rounded type.

The point I was trying to make is that for a Factory 174 made tank you would want to use the lower rear plate with rounded housings, like part L5 but removing the center hinge.

To muddy things up a bit more, it also appears that UTZ may have started to change the arrangement of hinges/bolts to something like what G5 gives you (two hinge not three), perhaps as soon as mid to late 1943. Certainly, the "classical" arrangement seems to become more rare in photographs dated 1944 and later though UTZ remained the largest producer of the tank. It is absolutely sure that they used the five bolt/two hinge pattern by the time they introduced the T-34-85 into production and may have started, as mentioned, much earlier.

Did that help or just make things more confusing?

Mark



Thank you very much for the explanation. Your knowledge of this Russian beast is very helpful.
Cheers!
Vartotojas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
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Posted: Monday, June 21, 2010 - 07:04 PM UTC

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Coming along nicely, Jacques.
Since you're on to the hull I though I'd post a photo that highlights some smaller problems with the kit.
Notice that the engine deck covers are held down by three fairly hefty bolts not four small rivets and that the sheet metal ends of the upper intake screens do not mate up neatly with the "bucket" or center tower.

Mark



Mythical Weapon at page 357 says: section of bolted-on engine cover on a T-34/85. On the T-34/76's, this element had four bolts (as it is in this kit).

Could you specify that information? Thanks.
MCR
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Arizona, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 04:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Mythical Weapon at page 357 says: section of bolted-on engine cover on a T-34/85. On the T-34/76's, this element had four bolts (as it is in this kit).
Could you specify that information? Thanks.



Yes, Mythical Weapon is wrong.
The change from four bolts to three appears to have been part of the simplification program and happened no later than the begging of 1943 (depending on which factory, it may have been earlier or slightly later).
So, earlier batches of the Model '42 hex turret will have four bolts but by the time the cupola was introduced they would most definitely have only three, at least as a "new made" (as opposed to rebuild) tank.
This is backed up by available photographs.

Mark
Vartotojas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
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Posted: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 09:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Mythical Weapon at page 357 says: section of bolted-on engine cover on a T-34/85. On the T-34/76's, this element had four bolts (as it is in this kit).
Could you specify that information? Thanks.



Yes, Mythical Weapon is wrong.
The change from four bolts to three appears to have been part of the simplification program and happened no later than the begging of 1943 (depending on which factory, it may have been earlier or slightly later).
So, earlier batches of the Model '42 hex turret will have four bolts but by the time the cupola was introduced they would most definitely have only three, at least as a "new made" (as opposed to rebuild) tank.
This is backed up by available photographs.

Mark


OK, thanks for the information You're alive T-34 encyclopedia
By the way, what version is roughly correct (from the last two)?
MCR
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Posted: Saturday, June 26, 2010 - 04:05 AM UTC
Not quite.
As far as I can tell (I haven't been able to measure these myself yet so take this for what its worth) the spacing remained the same for these bolts, maybe changing for the T-34-85. In fact I have one photo that appears to show the fourth (inside) hole welded over on an early example of the three bolt set up.
Your top and bottom illustrations are about right but the center drawing is off. Take a look at the photo I posted to see what I mean.

Mark
Jacques
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 05:13 PM UTC
Quick look at a long discussion for tomorrow:

Vartotojas
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Posted: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 10:52 PM UTC
Why did you clean both sides?
Jacques
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 06:01 PM UTC
Ok, try two (my first post was eaten by the electronic dog so it would seem...sigh).

First, a proper explanation:



Plastic tie down pieces E2 were added as they are highly detailed, with weld beads, and look FAR better than either the molded on tie downs or the PE pieces that are too obviously flat. The detail on the right rear fender was scraped enough to all for the tool box that will go there. New bolts were added on the retaining bracket (?) in front of the engine deck, as noted by Mark at the top of this page. Part C16 was used for the two front corners of the top hull. Part C17 has notches in it for the T-34/85 I assume and the PE pieces look flat and weak...AND DML does not tell you to put ANYTHING in on the instructions. SIGH.

Finally, the "cleaning" comment. The upper hull DML keeps recycling through is not "clean" enough for what they want to do with it. It is a nice enough upper hull, but there are mounting lugs for the long rectangular fuel cells of the early mods, there are really badly done tie downs on teh hull sides and fenders. All this needs to be removed, especially for a '43 tank. Hence the "cleaning" comment. Here is a picture to show a before and after look:



Finally, I have had some discussion that maybe DML's PE rear engine deck screen is not so bad...that maybe I was making it look worse than it was. So I built one up the best I could, putting the screen as close to the upper hinges as it should be and seeing what happened. I still feel the PE screens are incorrect and too long.

As built. You can see the "overhang" of the unmodified PE pieces:





Primered with the injection molded screen to compare to:





Finally, all three mounted on the hull, and the end has the piece from the SU-100 Premium kit that I think is still the best:









For the unmodified piece, there is still a 4mm overhang of the correctly sized open area...about one row of openings in the mesh. I hope this helps clear things up.
Vartotojas
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Posted: Thursday, July 01, 2010 - 12:52 AM UTC

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I still feel the PE screens are incorrect and too long.


I think you're right:


But how about this part? Should it be here?

Mythical Weapon about this one says: "This instalation of the extra tanks was standard for the No. 183 factory".

And about this one: "The identity of the producer of this T-34 is unknow. The hull is probably from the No. 183 Factory (missing middle bolts on the sides of the rear plate), and it and the turret are from a 1942 or 1942/1943 production series, while the wheels are from 1943 or 1944".
MCR
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Arizona, United States
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Posted: Friday, July 02, 2010 - 05:49 PM UTC
That added cover for the formation/tail light is, I believe, a post war Polish modification.
(BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in MW's descriptions when it comes to dating features. Some are OK others are questionable.)

Mark
Jacques
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Posted: Friday, July 02, 2010 - 06:06 PM UTC
Marc, in all seriousness, I think YOU need to write a T-34 book like Mythical Weapon...well, a more accurate one anyhow.
C_JACQUEMONT
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Posted: Friday, July 02, 2010 - 11:53 PM UTC

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Marc, in all seriousness, I think YOU need to write a T-34 book like Mythical Weapon...well, a more accurate one anyhow.



Less myths more facts?

Cheers,

Christophe
Gundam-Mecha
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Posted: Saturday, July 03, 2010 - 01:07 AM UTC
Great work Jacques!

There really is a big difference in those PE Grilles on the engine deck huh? The unmodified grille really looks bad, I'm amazed its so oversized for the part like that.
Jacques
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Posted: Saturday, July 03, 2010 - 03:52 AM UTC
1. I need to remember it is Mark with a K...not c.

2. Yes, the engine deck mesh is that messed up. And in a LOT of DML's T-34 kits...sigh.
Gundam-Mecha
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Posted: Saturday, July 03, 2010 - 09:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text


2. Yes, the engine deck mesh is that messed up. And in a LOT of DML's T-34 kits...sigh.



Wow, I've never built a DML T34 and had always thought they were super accurate, I'm really surprised about this...
Vartotojas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 02:15 AM UTC
Hi all,
I just wanted to ask about part F3, do we need it? I saw that you didn't atach it (and yes, there isn't spot for it), but instruction says otherwise. Sorry, I couldn't find some photo proof for this part:

Jacques
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 04:20 AM UTC
Yes, part F3 is needed. I have not added them to the kit yet and will cover the difference between the plastic and PE pieces soon.
daffyduck
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 - 07:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That added cover for the formation/tail light is, I believe, a post war Polish modification.
(BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in MW's descriptions when it comes to dating features. Some are OK others are questionable.)

Mark



That explains why Aber include it in their PE screen set......?

I think.........
casualmodeler
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Hame, Finland
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 - 08:59 AM UTC
I have old Tamiya T-34 with commanders cupola in my stash. Planning to make it as Beutepanzer. How bad or incorrect or should I say out of date it is compered to Dragon kit?
Jacques
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2010 - 03:56 PM UTC
The Tamiya kits are OK, but lacking in detail. It will look like a T-34, and be easier to build, but to make it equal the DML kit will take work.
Vartotojas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
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Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 02:03 AM UTC
Any news/updates?
Vartotojas
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Vilnius, Lithuania
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KitMaker: 30 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 30, 2010 - 06:33 PM UTC
I found that AFV Club has these track links:
AFV Club 1/35 T-34 500mm Workable Track Links # 35173
AFV Club 1/35 T-34 550mm Workable Track Links # 35142
Which one would be more accurate for this T-34/76 1943 build?
MCR
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Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 02:46 AM UTC
The 500mm cast links.

Mark
Vartotojas
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Posted: Monday, September 13, 2010 - 07:34 AM UTC
Thanks Mark for the information.
And maybe someone knows the
real barrel size (S):
Jacques
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Minnesota, United States
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Posted: Monday, September 13, 2010 - 01:15 PM UTC
Edited the link as post image did not want ot show the picture.

Will start posting more in this blog soon (tonight, tomorrow night, etc...)