An extra tax on top of the VAT et.c?
That will be hugely popular with the voters .....
Trying to prevent inevitable change by adding artificial costs. I assume that the customs services would have to apply that tax to deliveries from online stores in the EU, I don't think EU will bend over backwards to collect a tax imposed by the UK now that Brexit is coming closer.
Would it be imposed on online sales by British internet shops selling abroad as well?
Which rules would apply to vendors which have both an online and a physical shop? Can I order from a physical shop and get the product sent to me without the extra tax? If that case is exempted the whole plan will crash, if that case is not exempted there will be other trouble.
Once upon a time in Sweden some politicians tried to impose a ban on satellite dishes to prevent innocent viewers from seeing advertising in their TV.
That kooky scheme didn't go far ...
If there is an unnecessary cost that can be circumvented then there will be 'businessmen' ready to exploit it with various devious schemes.
Maybe it will create some public servant jobs at the ministry for prevention of online tax evasion ....
/ Robin
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
Yannis Hobbies closing.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 03:40 AM UTC
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 04:30 AM UTC
I think we in the 'States are already well on our way in that game that some think of as "leveling the field for brick-and-mortar retailers"...
Up until 2019, most e-trade and sales went between the states, and from outside the US in to most states, free of state and local sales-taxes. Hence e-sales have been super-popular. And within our hobby, extremely so - with many of us modelers buying much, if not most or even all, of our kits and AM parts-sets from overseas sellers and from out-of-state e-vendors. Which of course translates into much lower sales for most LHS...
But the e-commerce world massively changed in the USA with the 2019 Supreme Court decision that allows states to impose sales taxes on internet sales.
Here in Arizona, this means that most internet purchases will cost around 8 - 9% more with the added AZ state and, in some counties and municipalities, county and local / city sales-taxes. As US state sales taxes differ among states, this increased cost will differ depending upon where one lives and has stuff shipped to. For Arizona residents, starting in 2019 AZ is issuing "vendor tax licenses" to listed internet sellers in other US states (and to overseas sellers, too) who handle over $250k in sales - which license requires these vendors to collect AZ taxes on sales to AZ residents. But wait! AZ is changing the seller-threshold down to 150k (I THINK that's the figure...) for 2020, and down to 100k in sales in 2021... That is, AZ is planning on "capturing" all e-vendors who sell 100+k worth per year by 2021. And the major e-sales conduits, eBay, Amazon, etc., have already stepped up to help states collect their taxes. There will be little escape!
8 - 9% is a pretty steep increase in cost for the hobby. As most of us modelers haven't received any such increase in our incomes (specially if you are in the retired set, as am I...), what this translates to is that modelers will likely buy LESS. It probably won't increase sales at the LHS, as the reason most people shop for lower prices is to get more for the money that they HAVE. Now that money will buy LESS. That doesn't mean that we'll just rush out and willingly spend 8 or 9% MORE so as to keep our purchases "level" with last year's.
Speaking only parochially and "personally"; My bottom line is I'll just be buying fewer kits and less AM stuff in 2020 and beyond. It's still cheaper for me to buy on-line even with the added taxes, as I need to drive 230 miles round-trip to buy at an LHS, but I won't spend 8 - 9% MORE on the hobby, so NOBODY (save the AZ state treasury) wins.
So, for those over in the UK: Adding "e-taxes" is just the "state" exercising it's taxation powers. And while you won't like it (that "unpopular" aspect), the decision will be the gov's - who will (perhaps blindly and with lots of mis-guided imagination, much as here) "think" about whatever they erroneously imagine the consequences to be... and then enact an added tax. You cannot doubt the desire of politicians to find new funding sources and streams! Sadly, while they may claim that this will "level the field for brick n mortar...", the REALITY is that it will simply take MORE money OUT of the affected trade. Leaving buyers with getting less for their money. Said differently; this is INFLATION. Taxes are inflationary, and our hobby costs will simply go up.
Cheers! Bob
Up until 2019, most e-trade and sales went between the states, and from outside the US in to most states, free of state and local sales-taxes. Hence e-sales have been super-popular. And within our hobby, extremely so - with many of us modelers buying much, if not most or even all, of our kits and AM parts-sets from overseas sellers and from out-of-state e-vendors. Which of course translates into much lower sales for most LHS...
But the e-commerce world massively changed in the USA with the 2019 Supreme Court decision that allows states to impose sales taxes on internet sales.
Here in Arizona, this means that most internet purchases will cost around 8 - 9% more with the added AZ state and, in some counties and municipalities, county and local / city sales-taxes. As US state sales taxes differ among states, this increased cost will differ depending upon where one lives and has stuff shipped to. For Arizona residents, starting in 2019 AZ is issuing "vendor tax licenses" to listed internet sellers in other US states (and to overseas sellers, too) who handle over $250k in sales - which license requires these vendors to collect AZ taxes on sales to AZ residents. But wait! AZ is changing the seller-threshold down to 150k (I THINK that's the figure...) for 2020, and down to 100k in sales in 2021... That is, AZ is planning on "capturing" all e-vendors who sell 100+k worth per year by 2021. And the major e-sales conduits, eBay, Amazon, etc., have already stepped up to help states collect their taxes. There will be little escape!
8 - 9% is a pretty steep increase in cost for the hobby. As most of us modelers haven't received any such increase in our incomes (specially if you are in the retired set, as am I...), what this translates to is that modelers will likely buy LESS. It probably won't increase sales at the LHS, as the reason most people shop for lower prices is to get more for the money that they HAVE. Now that money will buy LESS. That doesn't mean that we'll just rush out and willingly spend 8 or 9% MORE so as to keep our purchases "level" with last year's.
Speaking only parochially and "personally"; My bottom line is I'll just be buying fewer kits and less AM stuff in 2020 and beyond. It's still cheaper for me to buy on-line even with the added taxes, as I need to drive 230 miles round-trip to buy at an LHS, but I won't spend 8 - 9% MORE on the hobby, so NOBODY (save the AZ state treasury) wins.
So, for those over in the UK: Adding "e-taxes" is just the "state" exercising it's taxation powers. And while you won't like it (that "unpopular" aspect), the decision will be the gov's - who will (perhaps blindly and with lots of mis-guided imagination, much as here) "think" about whatever they erroneously imagine the consequences to be... and then enact an added tax. You cannot doubt the desire of politicians to find new funding sources and streams! Sadly, while they may claim that this will "level the field for brick n mortar...", the REALITY is that it will simply take MORE money OUT of the affected trade. Leaving buyers with getting less for their money. Said differently; this is INFLATION. Taxes are inflationary, and our hobby costs will simply go up.
Cheers! Bob
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 09:09 AM UTC
I’ve got to agree again with Bob. Here in the states, on-line sales are charged state and local tax. But I don’t agree that On-line is always cheaper than the LHS. When shipping is added, along with state taxes, you are paying not only the 8-9% tax (in my area it’s 10% extra), but you’re paying for the “privilege” of having it delivered to your door. In some cases, that’s $10-15 above the price of the kit just for postage. Now before anyone “cuts my head off for “hobby heresy”, let me explain. If you live close enough to a LHS, you just pay the tax, not the shipping. I have a perfect
case-in-point just today. I found a subject on-line today for $20. They want shipping and state tax. Shipping is listed as $9.60, and tax is $2. That makes the $20 kit $31.60 by the time I buy it on line. Fortunately, the seller is 15 minutes from me! So I can get it for $22, plus a little gas. I’ll have to drive to get it, but I can combine trips. I realize not everyone can do this, but in many ways, it makes more sense to buy locally than spending $10+ or - on a kit for shipping. So there’s something to be said for having a LHS handy. I’m also fortunate the owner of this particular shop will let customers examine a kit before buying. That way you can know exactly what you’re getting. On-line is convenient, but it can also be pricey, and you may not always know what you’re getting. This is why I lament (understanding nothing will change) the demise of the LHS, but am prepared for buying on-line too.
VR, Russ
case-in-point just today. I found a subject on-line today for $20. They want shipping and state tax. Shipping is listed as $9.60, and tax is $2. That makes the $20 kit $31.60 by the time I buy it on line. Fortunately, the seller is 15 minutes from me! So I can get it for $22, plus a little gas. I’ll have to drive to get it, but I can combine trips. I realize not everyone can do this, but in many ways, it makes more sense to buy locally than spending $10+ or - on a kit for shipping. So there’s something to be said for having a LHS handy. I’m also fortunate the owner of this particular shop will let customers examine a kit before buying. That way you can know exactly what you’re getting. On-line is convenient, but it can also be pricey, and you may not always know what you’re getting. This is why I lament (understanding nothing will change) the demise of the LHS, but am prepared for buying on-line too.
VR, Russ
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 10:33 AM UTC
I get my stuff from Modellbau König, orders over 150 Euros (and that limit is easy to reach with some planning) are sent postage free (i.e. included in the cost of the kits) to Sweden from Germany.
DHL and the Swedish post pretend that they deliver to the door but in 95% of the deliveries I have to get my butt over to the delivery point, about 1/2-mile return trip and pick it up. The German sales tax is lower than the Swedish and the prices are lower than the two LHS'es in my town. The only time I pay postage et.c. is when I'm getting something that is very hard to find or out of production.
The result is that I might just possibly be buying too much ....
DHL and the Swedish post pretend that they deliver to the door but in 95% of the deliveries I have to get my butt over to the delivery point, about 1/2-mile return trip and pick it up. The German sales tax is lower than the Swedish and the prices are lower than the two LHS'es in my town. The only time I pay postage et.c. is when I'm getting something that is very hard to find or out of production.
The result is that I might just possibly be buying too much ....
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 03:38 PM UTC
Quoted Text
An extra tax on top of the VAT et.c?
That will be hugely popular with the voters .....
Trying to prevent inevitable change by adding artificial costs. I assume that the customs services would have to apply that tax to deliveries from online stores in the EU, I don't think EU will bend over backwards to collect a tax imposed by the UK now that Brexit is coming closer.
Would it be imposed on online sales by British internet shops selling abroad as well?
Which rules would apply to vendors which have both an online and a physical shop? Can I order from a physical shop and get the product sent to me without the extra tax? If that case is exempted the whole plan will crash, if that case is not exempted there will be other trouble.
Once upon a time in Sweden some politicians tried to impose a ban on satellite dishes to prevent innocent viewers from seeing advertising in their TV.
That kooky scheme didn't go far ...
If there is an unnecessary cost that can be circumvented then there will be 'businessmen' ready to exploit it with various devious schemes.
Maybe it will create some public servant jobs at the ministry for prevention of online tax evasion ....
/ Robin
I have no real idea how things work "over there" in the EU and UK, et alia. HERE, in the USA, it used to be that I could usually avoid sales taxes if I ordered stuff via the phone, post, or internet from a vendor located in another state. Or in some foreign country. Short of customs duties leveled on some types of goods from some source-countries, model kits and supplies usually entered the US "tax and duty-free" from foreign vendors. So buying stuff from China was usually quite a savings over what one would spend on that item in any brick n mortar US store.
IF one ordered stuff via phone, post, or internet from a store or site shipping from WITHIN your state, you would generally have to pay the state taxes - as the store would report it as an in-state sale and that would be taxed. So it paid to buy from out-of-state.
The recent state-taxation rule-changes have mostly tossed all of that into the gutter here. Now, your state can collect taxes on stuff you ordered from a vendor in some other state, or some foreign country. And as eBay and Amazon and ETSY are the key intermediaries in a large proportion of foreign internet purchases by Americans, and these corporations have agreed to add on applicable taxes in many cases, those once-cheap deals from Asia are becoming much less so. Stuff you order from in-state stores and in-state sites (e-vendors) will of course be taxed - the state after all sells those stores a vending license... So they will collect taxes.
Arizona (my state...) actually hopes to tax ALL internet sales coming into AZ... Even those from private persons selling their stash on the eBay... And eBay will facilitate this taxation (akin to taxing a garage sale!) as they are providing the seller shipping info to your address.
My point here, if any, is that we will pretty much just be paying substantially more, over-all, for our hobby, whether one buys on-line or at the LHS. You are lucky if your LHS is a couple miles or km away and you can get there cheaply. For me, with a 230 mile round-trip (costing me perhaps 10 gals of gas at ca $2.80/gallon), going to the LHS is not cheap. An internet kit that cost maybe $50 shipped last year will now cost maybe $55 shipped from that same old China. More costly, but still cheaper by far than the LHS, where it may cost 60+ plus state taxes, so perhaps 66+, plus maybe some part of the 28 or so spent on gas getting there. That's for me. Everyone else has their specific circumstances, and some will shift more business to their LHS because it's now closer in price to that internet purchase. Others, like me, will likely continue to buy on-line - but we will likely buy less, as prices will have increased maybe 10%, whereas available money did not increase.
Hey! Just wait! Shipping costs are headed up here in the 'States! That won't increase anyone's purchasing, I will bet!
Cheers! Bob
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2020 - 06:01 PM UTC
Just a finishing note here— the $20 purchase I found at my “new” LHS (which was first identified on EBay) ended up being only $19.73 WITH tax! That’s because the LHS owner gave me a small discount, because he didn’t have to package up the model and run it to the P.O. Now that’s good service. Can’t get that on line. I know it was a small purchase (of an OOP 1/72 kit). But as the LHS owner told me, if I see it on EBay, and buy it in the shop, he saves money, time and makes a customer happy, so he’ll return occasionally. After what I saw in the shop, maybe I’ll be in every week!
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 05:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Just a finishing note here— the $20 purchase I found at my “new” LHS (which was first identified on EBay) ended up being only $19.73 WITH tax! That’s because the LHS owner gave me a small discount, because he didn’t have to package up the model and run it to the P.O. Now that’s good service. Can’t get that on line. I know it was a small purchase (of an OOP 1/72 kit). But as the LHS owner told me, if I see it on EBay, and buy it in the shop, he saves money, time and makes a customer happy, so he’ll return occasionally. After what I saw in the shop, maybe I’ll be in every week!
VR, Russ
Careful there, Russ! That sounds like a route to rapid stash-growth! If you are a senior citizen type, like me, THAT is a risky (but still fun!) road!
But it DOES help keep an LHS alive...!
Bob
HooFlungDung
Joined: November 14, 2005
KitMaker: 23 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 07:06 AM UTC
I have kits I'm try to sell here in the bay area.
I'm retiring from hobby kits and want to liquidate my inventory of about 40 or so kits. Mostly modern but older jewels here and there.
I'm retiring from hobby kits and want to liquidate my inventory of about 40 or so kits. Mostly modern but older jewels here and there.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 12:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextJust a finishing note here— the $20 purchase I found at my “new” LHS (which was first identified on EBay) ended up being only $19.73 WITH tax! That’s because the LHS owner gave me a small discount, because he didn’t have to package up the model and run it to the P.O. Now that’s good service. Can’t get that on line. I know it was a small purchase (of an OOP 1/72 kit). But as the LHS owner told me, if I see it on EBay, and buy it in the shop, he saves money, time and makes a customer happy, so he’ll return occasionally. After what I saw in the shop, maybe I’ll be in every week!
VR, Russ
Careful there, Russ! That sounds like a route to rapid stash-growth! If you are a senior citizen type, like me, THAT is a risky (but still fun!) road!
But it DOES help keep an LHS alive...!
Bob
Unfortunately, I am a senior citizen with an already sizable stash! I’ve also had the unfortunate experience of trying to whittle that stash down from over 2K kits to a mere 200. You see, I’ve been collecting kits for over 50 years, on three continents! I managed to get my stash down to about 200 kits (which might even get built before I cross over), but I have found its steadily creeping up— largely due to miniaturization! You see, I decided to only build models in certain categories and scales to keep the stash low, and lately, due to space, I’ve been building more in 1/72 scale (for aircraft anyway, and a few large artillery pieces). That allows me to get more into a smaller space! But, as a result,I note the ‘stash has a tendency towards “mission creep”. I am fortunate in that one of my LHS accepts “trade credit”.
VR, Russ
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 03:35 PM UTC
Collecting for over 50, eh, Russ? Hey! My stash hung steady at about 40 kits for about 35 years... And then it just exploded, starting in 2009! I'm around 1600 or 1700 plus a modest side-stash of accessories and PE and such. I've always been able to find the silver under almost every cloud... And the cloud of our current discussion (internet taxation, greater hobby costs going forward) presents some silver for me; I'll probably buy a lot fewer kits in 2020 and beyond (at least so I tell myself )! And SWMBO will doubtless find such silver, if realized, a good thing. Maybe I'll build more...
It will be pretty tough, however, to really stop buying, as there are quite a few recent kits that are close to "I NEED one of those!" - Right up to the just-announced Meng "MB Military Vehicle"! And doubtless the mind-readers at the various model kit mfgr's have zeroed in on my head. The future promises nothing but more enticement with more new kits of great subjects!
Bob
)! And SWMBO will doubtless find such silver, if realized, a good thing. Maybe I'll build more...It will be pretty tough, however, to really stop buying, as there are quite a few recent kits that are close to "I NEED one of those!" - Right up to the just-announced Meng "MB Military Vehicle"! And doubtless the mind-readers at the various model kit mfgr's have zeroed in on my head. The future promises nothing but more enticement with more new kits of great subjects!
Bob
babaoriley
Joined: June 23, 2017
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 179 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 08, 2020 - 04:52 PM UTC
Quoted Text
When was the last time you purchased a new kit from a LHS?
My wife and I went into one of the local hobby shops just last week and bought half a dozen bottles of paint which was all we needed--the kit stash is rather full at the moment. But I've bought kits there in the past when their price was reasonable, and an airbrush on sale, and tools and things of that sort.
All it takes for a local store to get my business is to have what I'm looking for at a reasonable price. They don't have to match the internet, but if they can add expert advice and a pleasant place to shop to a reasonable price then I'm willing to pay a little more than online. I recently bought a whole new digital photo setup with several lenses and some serious accessories and I got it at a local shop because they're smart enough to match the Amazon price even if they don't throw in all the extra stuff Amazon includes (but which I don't need). Combined with Amazon's hit-and-miss delivery system, I would rather support a local dealer.
But the local shop has to meet me halfway, they can't have a dust-coated collection of antique kits and old model magazines and brands of paint that went out of business years ago. They need to stay on top of the hobby with current products and the ability to get what they don't have in stock quickly, and they can't be so expensive that I just cannot justify paying their prices.
We have a couple of LHS left in our area and we'll continue to try to support them. However there are times when I wish they'd make that a bit easier.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 09, 2020 - 03:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
But the e-commerce world massively changed in the USA with the 2019 Supreme Court decision that allows states to impose sales taxes on internet sales.
All the 2018 Supreme Court decision did was allow states to require online retailers to collect the existing tax. The ability of states to impose taxes on internet and out-of-state sales was not a consideration in the case because it already existed.
KL
Bodeen
#026
Joined: June 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,744 posts
Armorama: 1,359 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 09, 2020 - 04:17 PM UTC
Sad news. I can only say we are blessed here in the Pittsburgh area to have Hobby Express. It is located in Cranberry,PA right off of I-79 and Rt. 228. It has one of the largest selections of Armor and figure kits I have seen in a brick and mortar hobby shop. They have all major brands and scales of kits. The paint and tool selection is astounding. The prices are retail but you save on shipping. They give 15% off retail price on Armor kits. It is a very successful shop. I hope they stay around for a long time.
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 09, 2020 - 05:38 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextBut the e-commerce world massively changed in the USA with the 2019 Supreme Court decision that allows states to impose sales taxes on internet sales.
All the 2018 Supreme Court decision did was allow states to require online retailers to collect the existing tax. The ability of states to impose taxes on internet and out-of-state sales was not a consideration in the case because it already existed.
KL
You are so correct, Kurt! I did mis-state what the SCOTUS decision actually did! And Thank You for pointing this out!
I am, however, curious... Does your correcting my unfortunate misused term change the practical outcome of the decision? How I wish it did! The SCOTUS decision allows states to actually enforce COLLECTION of state taxes on internet purchases - by agency of having SELLERS serve as "tax-collectors" for the state revenue systems. The PRACTICAL outcome for us buyers remains exactly as I stated: COSTS of the hobby will substantially increase for those who use internet purchasing. Indeed, costs for internet purchases of all sorts - not just hobby stuff - will increase. For many in our hobby, this will mean that they will get LESS for their hobby money from now on, because they cannot likely save as much by shopping out-of-state and internationally via the Internet, and LHS pricing likely will not go down.
Incidentally, for those perhaps interested in the strange perversity of state imposition of taxation in the USA... Many states have long REQUIRED residents to declare and pay "due sales tax" on their annual income-tax returns on stuff which they physically purchased out of state and subsequently brought home. Of course the states could only collect such taxes IF one declared those purchases... Which probably almost nobody ever did or does.
There are a couple of interesting questions and details involved in the implementation of this tax-collection... There are 50 states in the Union. Most will eventually seek to have sellers collect and forward sales-taxes. There is no "uniform" tax rate to be collected for all purchases. Sellers will have to identify sales made to each state's residents, and do the required additional accounting and tax-payment as required by each state. As sellers are scattered across the planet, there is the question of how each state will AUDIT all of these sellers - states audit licensed vendors to ensure that taxes are actually collected and paid to the state... How will states do this globally? Or even across the USA? How will YOU, the buyer, KNOW that your seller has actually remitted the due sales taxes to your state on your behalf?
But this is all actually just intellectual flagellation... The bottom line is that YOU, the buyer, will pay the tax to the seller. YOUR COSTS will go up for those goods that you buy. No matter what the correct terminology is concerning SCOTUS decisions, the price of the hobby will take a substantial jump for many. Taxation is inflationary. NOBODY wins.
Cheers! Bob
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Friday, January 10, 2020 - 02:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextBut the e-commerce world massively changed in the USA with the 2019 Supreme Court decision that allows states to impose sales taxes on internet sales.
All the 2018 Supreme Court decision did was allow states to require online retailers to collect the existing tax. The ability of states to impose taxes on internet and out-of-state sales was not a consideration in the case because it already existed.
KL
You are so correct, Kurt! I did mis-state what the SCOTUS decision actually did! And Thank You for pointing this out!
I am, however, curious... Does your correcting my unfortunate misused term change the practical outcome of the decision?
No.
It will, hopefully, reduce the likelihood that some ill-informed lout will post a rant about the government and help stop the spread of mis-information along the lines of "A guy on Armorama said the Supreme Court allowed an internet tax. . ."
KL
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