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Unusual Figure Release from Dragon
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 06:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think this is one of the most appealing figure offerings from DML in some time.


Hear, hear for the gentleman from the UK!

My only concern would be the distinctive helmet markings. Will these be included as a decal sheet?

For those who think this is just "more Germans," the role of non-Germans on the Eastern Front could use more exploration, and I'm glad to see this set. The Italians and Hungarians, for example, took a terrible pounding north of Stalingrad, for example. The Soviets decided to hit there because they knew they'd have an easier time of it than going toe-to-toe with the Wehrmacht. That's no reflection on the soldiers of either force, just a recognition they were equipped more poorly with fewer heavy guns, etc.

As to the morality of the soldiers involved, I think one would lose one's interest in modeling very quickly if the ethics and morality of the Eastern Front are delved into too deeply. The Totenkopf SS division, for example, regularly rotated its members between the Camps and the Front. The amount of heinous atrocities committed by SS and non-SS units are well-documented, and part of the reason many Russians today still bristle at the thought of returning captured war booty.
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 07:04 AM UTC
I have a feeling that most of us nay sayers really don't care about the politics or who was mean or immoral of the time. We would simply like to see a few less Germans or German looking surrogates and maybe a lot more US, Japanese and maybe Italians. Did Italians serve in WW II ? You would hardly know it for the few figures out there of Italians. China put up a hell of a fight against Japan, has anyone seen any chinese troops???? Yes , I realize that MiniArt has a nice set of US tankers, but will they produce so few that you will never see them in stock or on the shelves ?????
KOMIX6
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 07:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... China put up a hell of a fight against Japan, has anyone seen any chinese troops????



http://tokyostory.exblog.jp/14368233/
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 07:24 AM UTC
Thanks, Piotr........I have seen those Cinese troops , but are they not Korean war guys, or is there not much difference between WW II and Korea ? I actually have a bunch of those . If they can be used for both periods , I will decline from that argument.
KOMIX6
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 07:52 AM UTC
I know only this one kit with Chinese troops,from DML and yes they are from Korean war series
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 08:14 AM UTC
Alfred, those troops are the Chinese "volunteers" sent to fight the UN forces after MacArthur ignored China's warnings and approached the Yalu River. The Chinese fought the Japanese with really two separate armies, Nationalist (KMT) and Communist. The Nationalists had purchased equipment from the Nazis (!!), so you'll find early examples of German armored cars, for example, turning up with Chinese markings (Bronco has released, I believe, two kits with KMT markings).

The Communists under Mao received aid from the Soviet Union, but Stalin was rather ambivalent about having a Marxist government in Beijing and the Chinese were later very bitter at the Soviets, so it's a complex relationship.

I'm actually astonished that Dragon or Trumpeter haven't done more to promote Chinese WW2 subject matter. While the Chinese today are very defiant about resisting the Japanese, their military record is decidedly mixed against the invaders. They did tie down millions of Japanese troops who might otherwise have been used against the US and its Allies in the Pacific. I've often wondered why the Japanese did not move more troops out of China than they did.
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 08:25 AM UTC
I saw a documentary about how the Chinese retreated and burned everything left behind and thus this gave them time to rally up the army farther away from the fighting. The massive counterattack was devastating to the Japanese. I would not mind to see more attention brought to Chinese involvement , via some models and figures of that campaign. Perhaps they, the Japanese figured they had china beat for all the ground that China was giving up. Cocky with victory they kept committing to that fight and not to the one in the Pacific. Just wondering......
Petition2God
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 09:01 AM UTC
Getting back to the topic, the figures do have nice action poses. Maybe DML is running out of German soldiers to market. Remember the Georgian soldiers surrendering? Hopefully, they will run out of "German" ideas soon.
afv_rob
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 09:36 AM UTC
without getting into the details of it, arent these basically for all intense and purposes just figures wearing German uniforms, with German equipment and some mixed weapons. Apart from the rather poorly (from the pics anyway) molded on arm patch and different choice of headwear and jacket on one of the figures, theres not much to make these any different from a standard German infantry. The name of the set alone doesnt IMO allow for this to be called an obscure release

These are of no interest to me anyway, but this release does give the impression that Dragon thinks it can market a set of figures with the appearance that they are something unusual and a bit different when basically they arent.
exer
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 09:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Getting back to the topic, the figures do have nice action poses. Maybe DML is running out of German soldiers to market. Remember the Georgian soldiers surrendering? Hopefully, they will run out of "German" ideas soon.



When modelers stop buying them- Dragon'll stop making them. DML currently list 24 allied sets. If they sold in huge numbers then I think we'd see a lot more.

As a mainly Allied modeler I found the Georgians surrendering a very useful set.
Personally I don't care if they never run out of ideas for Germans- Masterbox and Miniart are keeping me supplied with Allied figures.

Depending on reviews I may pick up this set- I like the poses
retiredbee2
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 10:20 AM UTC
As probably the biggest nay sayer,on this subject I have to admit that I have a whole bunch of Germans, and they are very useful, but alright already, lets see something else. There is nothing unusual about another bunch of Germans. If I sat down to eat steak every day, and nothing else, much as I like steak, I would tire of it................just saying.................................Al
BeanStorm
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 11:15 AM UTC
I did groan, actually shook my head. The "Gen2" is great and I really respect Dragon for stepping it up. I would like to see Dragon do an "Gen2" accessories set. Boots, hands, heads and head gear. Oh and anything but another !@#%$ german kit! There is so much more to military miniatures than the darn germans! I know buy from another company but the first thing that comes to mind when Dragon release's something or the company itself I think WW2 GERMANS. Sorry that is my thought, great company same old line.
BeanStorm
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 11:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oh wow, what a surprise, more Germans, or in this case, wanna be Germans. Did Americans fight in WW II , or am I imagining things ? Could anybody please send us some decent American tankers to go with US tanks armored cars and SP guns ????? And what about WW I stuff ? Imagine the many possibilities if they would just start producing stuff from that era.



I agree see my response
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 01:18 PM UTC
I think it very creative! No one is pointing.
captnenglish
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 02:43 PM UTC
I really like this set, the figure are interacting wth one another, the subject is great, the equiptment is Gen 2, and with a minor fix they could be an "german" fighting men on the eastern front. What I would really like to see is a "Blue Division" set in summer uniforms so that the modeler can depict a mix of Spanish and German insignia and uniform items.
vonHengest
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 02:59 PM UTC
Wow, this has generated a lot of replies already! Sticking to the original subject at hand, I really like this set. It's an interesting subject and the figures look really good. DML or not, I think I'll be picking this set up.
Bluestab
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 03:12 PM UTC
I guess the optimist in me should say it's little steps. To be honest these look like they could be built just as easily as Germans. They do look nice though. Man it would be nice for some new US Tanker sets.

Wasn't the Blue Legion the unit that protested how they were being utilized by the Germans by placing condoms on their bayonets during drill?
Petition2God
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Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 - 03:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I think it very creative! No one is pointing.



Ha ha ha! That's why Mr. Rae called it "somewhat unusual".
smydi01
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Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 04:53 AM UTC
Sorry but i like "Germans" and if they keep making them then i will keep buying them. I would also have to say it would be nice if they did a few sets from other countries
jimbrae
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Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 - 08:31 PM UTC
My 'eyebrow-raising' exercise which I expressed before came as a result of the following factors.

Firstly, whereas the German people have faced their particular fantasms about their past in an adult and mature manner (banning swastikas on model aircraft notwithstanding ) unfortunately the same cannot be said here.

The Division Azul is still considered by many to be an honorable (if misguided) group of individuals. I've actually got a couple of children's books from the 1960s which show their 'heroism and sacrifice' in the most graphic form.

So, I hear you say, it happened during WWII - so what?. Well, unfortunately, the DA's influence spread right into the 1980s. Several of those involved in the 1981 coup attempt had served with the division. Rather than being quietly retired with the restoration of democracy they continued serving with the armed forces. Some brief, and essentially accurate notes of the División Azul can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

Even though Spain was 'nominally' neutral during WWII a large part of Germany's Tungsten came from here, U-Boats were repaired and replenished in Spanish Naval bases and I live near a re-transmission station which was manned by the Luftwaffe during WWII.

Oh and to bring the story up-to date, there's a city in Spain which is debating whether or not to chande the name of a street which is named after the División Azul.

I can't imagine a German city having a 'Liebstandarte Strasse'
exer
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Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 12:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My 'eyebrow-raising' exercise which I expressed before came as a result of the following factors.

Firstly, whereas the German people have faced their particular fantasms about their past in an adult and mature manner (banning swastikas on model aircraft notwithstanding ) unfortunately the same cannot be said here.

The Division Azul is still considered by many to be an honorable (if misguided) group of individuals. I've actually got a couple of children's books from the 1960s which show their 'heroism and sacrifice' in the most graphic form.

So, I hear you say, it happened during WWII - so what?. Well, unfortunately, the DA's influence spread right into the 1980s. Several of those involved in the 1981 coup attempt had served with the division. Rather than being quietly retired with the restoration of democracy they continued serving with the armed forces. Some brief, and essentially accurate notes of the División Azul can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

Even though Spain was 'nominally' neutral during WWII a large part of Germany's Tungsten came from here, U-Boats were repaired and replenished in Spanish Naval bases and I live near a re-transmission station which was manned by the Luftwaffe during WWII.

Oh and to bring the story up-to date, there's a city in Spain which is debating whether or not to chande the name of a street which is named after the División Azul.

I can't imagine a German city having a 'Liebstandarte Strasse'



Hi Jim, Even though I'm a mainly Allied Modeler I'll still probably pick up this set and model them as German rather than Spanish troops. I can't see what any of the above potted history lesson has to do with the issue of this kit by Dragon. As modelers should we care whether or not Spain faces up to it's past? Should we boycott this kit? Should we start an email campaign? What's your point? As for Germany's tungsten- so what- Sweden supplied Steel and Iron ore to Germany during the war even though it was neutral.
Honestly I feel Armorama is not the place for these political history lessons.
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 01:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I can't see what any of the above potted history lesson has to do with the issue of this kit by Dragon.



Well, IMO, as a large part of modeling is understanding where the subjects came from, I don't think it's a bad idea understanding a little of the background. No, i'd certainly NEVER advocate any kind of boycott unless the subject was absolutely OTT - I guess a set portaying concentration camp inmates or guards would be a no-no. Personally, I think it's a hell of a good looking set (one of the best i've seen from DML for months). Not only that, but even though its based on a book illustration, it shows the kind of imagination that has been, for many, lacking in recent DML releases...
Hederstierna
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Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 01:59 AM UTC
Jim: Even though we're not always agreeing, I agree with you now. I think it's really great to gather new nowledge on subjects as say Spanish volenteers. If it's kept to facts and not political issues, I actually thinks it gives this site an extra edge. BTW, didn't Masterbox release a set if German soldiers in a watchtower/guarding a prisoncamp?
Jacob
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Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 03:53 AM UTC
Sorry Pat, but I think Jim "lesson" on Spanish history is always good to take.
If Jim can bring a little higher the history knowledge on this site, instead of rather very focusing on the tiny bolt hidden in the trunk of some beopanzergesunshaft IV, it's a very good point.
And franckly I would really like to understand why dragon is so much focusing on German under each and every aspect of the waffen ss or whermacht ? I think it's linked to the fascination for German nazi stuff that is going in Asia, and which has been covered by the press recently.
The only kit they didn't have released yet is some death head camps guards. Why not ? the fighting ss was also sent to guard camps isn't it ?
Why not a set with Adolph Hitler and its staff ?

And I think the "German do sell" argument is not sufficient, even more in those days where new manufacturers push on the shelves many allied subjects.

I mean Masterbox is releasing animal and civilian sets, long overdue since Tamyia livestock set and Preiser unaffordable figures. You don't need to be a marketing ace to notice that certain subject are desperately lacking in our hobby. I don't think azul division set was claimed that much by the modellers (and if some wants to particularly depicts this division, it's really realy esay to add just a yellow and red patch to other already released figure arms, even for a beginner).

And yes by the way the pose of the figures of this set are great, a lot of action, and diversity, and I would probably buy them one day.

But the question remains : why this obsession ?

Best,
Julien
retiredbee2
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Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2011 - 12:05 PM UTC
The history lesson is nice, even if a little off topic. I have heard the explanation that there are so many German figures because that is what the modelers want. I don't believe that for a minute. Sure there are some other figures that are good and affordable, but this German thing has been shoved down our throats for so long that the modelers do not have as large of a choice for variety that they should have. Makes me want to shoot my computer if I see another German .or anything that even resembles a German................................Don't call the cops............just kidding.