Brian,

you say that there are some excellent video tutorials online.
As I and some others are absolute PE dummies, could you post some links to tutorials which are in your opinion better than this DVD?

Sure, I would find a lot by myself, but I cannot rate if they show good or bad tips.
This post is not meant ironic or sarcastic in any way. I just want to improve my PE handling skills and learn sth about soldering PE.

Thomas

This is what I would consider constructive criticism that could actually be helpful... to point out the weaknesses in a certain product (without ridiculing the effort) and then pointing the customers to where they can find a better product that shows the correct way of doing things.

That's all we're talking about... Not being condescending... being constructive.. and being helpful to people.

And please.. no offense intended towards anyone. All in the spirit of trying to keep things fun and enjoyable for the majority... After all, isn't democracy supposed to be the rule of the majority

Hisham

I've deleted the posts for the following reasons:

1) Brian has EVERY right to express his own views as to how these things should be presented, when I see statements like this;




I'll delete. No-one has the right to use language like that

2) This is simply a News Report, it isn't any kind of judgement on the value (or otherwise) of the product mentioned. The What's New threads are there for comments on the products, the perception on how useful it is to any individual. It doesn't exist for a fundamentalist rant on this is how things should be. Express your own ideas, as people like Panzerdoc did, he doesn't think much of the product and gave some reasons for it. The difference was in the tone.

3) Fortunately, Adam, is not exactly a Newbie to the squabbling, petty-jealousies and infantile point-scoring behaviour on the 'Net. However, if this had been a completely NEW manufacturer/producer in this field, who hadn't been used to the Web's behaviour, where would we be?

4) If someone from Voyager (for example) came onto the Site following a News Report OR Review on Alliance's products and used the same language, then it would be OUR responsibility to cut it ASAP. That's the least we could do. This site is NOT a gladiatorial ring for manufacturers to have a slugfest.

5) Democratic? Like a bar or restaurant, we try to maintain a policy of what is (and what isn't) respectable behaviour. For this, we maintain our own form of 'The Right to Refuse Admission' - insulting people is a definite no-no.

Once again, seeing how this thread has been used, it turns my stomach of just how pathetic aspects of the 'Net really are - when you can say, infer or accuse, safely behind a keyboard.

I think I can see the problem here Brian.

I'm such a nubie at PE that what you have spoken of is like talking DOS programming to an analogue telephone. I have no idea what you are talking about. What is resistance soldering? What is torch soldering? How can I tell if what I am doing is low melt? Is this to do with the actual solder? If it is how can I tell if the solder I have is low melt. You say the thinner the better but is that accurate? I have an electric soldering iron of 25W that runs on 240V. From what you are saying I have the wrong tool. Sadly it is all I can afford at this time. But if someone can show me how to use this tool to get a moderate result then I'm all for it. I have a Small Shop 5'' Hold and Fold. Is this tool a waste of my money? I use it but I still don't know how to get the best out of it and I can't find any information showing me how to. You mention in your Tips and Hints that it is in your opinion one of the best but you don't show me how to use it to its full potential. Yes I have been experimenting with it but I just know this tool can do more than what I know of. I also have the Small Shop rolling kit and at first I was tempted to throw it as it wasn't giving me the results I wanted. But after playing with it more I now couldn't do without it.
I have taken the time to look at your Tips and Hints page but to be honest I'm still confused although I have it bookmarked it for reference. I have to keep rolling down to see the illustrations you have provided but then I lose my place in the text I was reading which becomes annoying. Was this page designed by you? Cause I'm sure that another page designer would say that there is a smarter way to do it. You mention buying stuff from Walmart. So this store is an actual store and not something I see on movies? Last time I looked I don't have a Walmart here but you haven't offered an alternative brand. Would Zap or Bob Smith Industries CA be just as effective as Krazy Glue which I have never heard of and I am assuming is a CA glue of some kind being as you mention it in the adhesives part of your tips?

So as you can see you have the knowledge and knowledge is power. You have dispensed some of your knowledge but it really hasn't been effective and can be construed that you have done this so that you can retain your power over us lesser knowledgeable members.

In the Army we are taught by the "like this - do that" method for such things as weapons training simply because it is the quickest way for a human being to learn and is called Observational Learning. Observational Learning is one of the best ways for adults to learn new skills because our neurological pathways have been developed. From this you can see that the offer of a DVD from which someone can observe and learn is highly appealing. If you feel that you can better teach us then maybe you should do some video tutorials. I watch a lot of youtube channels so I can see and practice what other people have shown. From the likes of darkuboot, scalemodelmedic, scalemodelmadman and badgrendels plus many more I have learnt a lot of new skills and reaffirmed some of my older ones. Simply offering a youtube link to resistance soldering and then saying that it is not actually suitable for our needs is pointless. After reading what you said I skipped that link because as you said "some of these methods aren't suited for our applications" I am trying to learn about so why would I now watch it. For all I know you could be saying "Here is a link to MIG welding which will give you some pointers but not really what you need".

Now I fully understand what you are saying. You have better knowledge than what appears to have been presented in this DVD and I believe you. The problem is you are not willing to provide better tutoring. That's akin to a fisherman throwing out burley but not casting a line. You have peeked we fishes interest then left us wanting more. So this DVD is one of many views. I can take this DVD and watch it, try some methods and if they do work for me then continue to use them. If they don't then I have learnt a way of not doing it and can look for other alternatives. For example, someone mentioned they use Solder-it for their PE. We don't have this stuff readily available over here so I bought some from the US. I have had some good and a lot of not so good results with it. But I will continue to try it and hopefully become better with it. Or is this stuff not any good from your perspective?

Ultimately I accept your criticism. You have told me that there is better ways and I shall now endevour to search them out. However I shall still show interest in this DVD and make a purchase of it. If it does turn out that Adam is showing me how to "butcher" PE then I will simply ignore his tutoring. Oh and one last thing. What is Kapton tape? Both you and Panzerdoc mention it but don't have a clue as to what it is or how it is normally used so I can look for an alternative. Is it some kind of electrical tape?

Thank you Brian for all you help so far.

Cheers, John

@ Brian, personally speaking, i'd love to see YOUR approach to PE, Armorama would be happy to host a feature piece by you on this subject. and no, there's no sarcasm or cynicism in my response.

The only thing I WOULD suggest, and it's something that is frequently forgotten, are the following aspects:

1) When you talk of materials and tools, please, items which are relatively easy to acquire - not just in the States, in other parts of the world, or at least available on-line from specialist stores....

2) Don't assume a greater knowledge than people actually have. There are terms you have used which I personally DON'T have a clue what they mean, don't be afraid to keep it simple.

So true... my father, God rest his soul, was a professor of economics and he used to always say being a genius at something doesn't mean you can teach it to others. To be a good teacher you have to be able to simplify the subject matter to the level of the people you're trying to teach

Hisham

Frankly, when it comes to things like PE or weathering I find these types of DVD's useful just for the 2-3 things that click and become part of my repertoire. That's why I'll purchase this DVD, I'll purchase MiG's upcoming one, and so forth. I can use PE, still ruin some pieces, and still tend to discount a lot of any given sheet because the visual impact isn't worth the trouble to me. If these and other DVD's give me even a few additional strategies that take some of the irritation out, it's money well spent. The more the better!

Matt

This seems like a useful DVD. Personally I think ANPW:s PE-work is very impressive, regardless of which tools he uses.

Off Topic: @ Brian: Guys like you is one of the few things I don´t like about this hobby . Of course you are entitled to your opinions, but I think the way you are expressing them is very rude and harsh. I also think it´s very unprofessional of you to call ANPW :s DVD a scam

Lastly I would like to say that the way you expresses yourself, makes me definelately NOT want to buy anything from your brand.

/Jesper

Personally, I don´t really care about the journey there ... as long as I get to the destination. In this case, the finished model is there to be seen for all. Its hardly "butchered". Every modeller works with the tools they have at hand, and if the end result appeals to the audience, they are doing something right ... or? I cant really see any scam here, and Im hardly the most optimistic member on Armorama.
As already mentioned several times in this thread, most here are not masters at soldering and probably will never need to be either. The biggest majority will always work with whats affordable and more so ... whats available.

I thought Zen worked the other way around.

But I agree with your last statement completely. I've done a lot of soldering, for this hobby as well as model railroading, even bike building.
I've done resistance soldering, used torches, and used a $5 iron from Radio Shack. I've even posted more than once about using alligator clips for heat sinks (all without insulting anyone as far as I can tell)
It's the result that matters. A long time ago I used a cheap iron (thay my dad bought in the 60s) to solder together a stowage basket for a Sho't Kal, before kits were available from anyone other than AEF. You could pick the whole tank up by the basket - it was that strong.
When I make rivets from bullet casings I use a torch. You use what works for the application. Most guys on here are not going to want to invest in a resistance soldering setup. It's relatively expensive.

That's why I find statements like this particular amusing:




This for cutting out a plastic window. As a guy who belongs to a community of dudes more famous for thinking out of the box than any group you can name, I was a little awestruck by that gem. Thinking out of the box doesn't mean coming up with the most wazoo method you can just for the sake of saying you use it. If that were true I'd be using a five axis Flo-Jet to cut pieces of Evergreen strip to length. Think outside the box and find something anyone can use, or do, that doesn't cost a fortune, and you'll have a hit.

Let's see if the DVD works for its intended audience. Send one to Hisham. Let's see what he has to say about it.

Thinking out of the box ,, I wouldn't say us kiwi's are the masters of it but we have got to be bloody close ..the reason ? ,, the simple answer is cost ..over here items can cost a small fortune and that low resistance soldering get up is one damn expensive set up here and alot of us guys can't warrant spending that sort of money on that just to do PE ..now i've done a rather large amount of soldering over the yrs from making my own battery packs for RC cars and planes to building brass chassis's for RC dragsters and custom building air soft guns and all the wiring associated with it. ..i use a 65watt iron ..the bugger runs very hot but solders in a heart beat and its taken a little while to master it ..now its the only way i will solder ..its fast and the solder runs clean and into every seam .. i use large and small diameter solder because it melts both with ease .. at the end of the day its not always the tools but the skill behind it .

Phill

I'd like to know more about how you use your Iron Phil. I'm in the same boat as to the Plug In Wall type of Iron but I'm thinking my Watts might be too low as its only a 25 Watter. I'm not to bad a hand at soldering up electrical wiring but soldering PE edges and flats together eludes me.
After seeing Brian's info I forked out for a Butane Iron from Bunnings (large hardware warehouse, don't know if you have them in NZ but they are huge over here) that can also double as a Torch so I'm looking forward to some more info on his Tips and Hints page before I do anything with it.

Cheers, John

almost missed this.....I do think Brian is the PE expert when he gave me great advice on my first PE work!

Jay By the way, we made Rihanna famous.....And Esmée Denters!

WOW Had to read through WHOLE LOAD OF BULL to get back to bizz ness (MODELLING) Hope we don't have to start a Red Oxide/ Braun camo thread again DAGGERS(swan and mortan) AT DAWN

Well, we have a saying back in the community that Robert Skipper and I are from: "Techniques are like a** holes - Everybody has their own."

Having said that, though, some techniques do in fact work better than others, much better.

So, I'll throw my two-bits in here about PE soldering tools and materials. Basically, if you're trying to solder PE for model building using an electric iron, you're beating yourself up for no good reason. It might work, but it's not easy or pretty. A miniature butane torch is the way to go.

I've never used resistance soldering since the equipment is so expensive, and since I discovered the "torch," I've seen no reason to.

Low-temp solder is good and provides a solution to many soldering conumdrums. Here's a very common and readily available type:

Tix Solder

Melts and flows at 275 degrees F. You can actually solder the lead foil from a wine bottle with this stuff. Really...

Yea, it looks like it's pretty darned expensive. However, on my current project (a DML Panther with a full-up PE set), I've used less than 1/4" of one stick. That works out to about 15 models' worth of solder, or about $1 worth of low-temp solder per model. Not too bad. I'll probably throw out more than that in mixed but un-used paint for my airbrush on the same project.

I'm also pretty frugal, so I police up the left over chips of solder and put them back into the tube for later.

I also use this, a high-temp solder:

Stay Brite Silver Solder

Melts and flows at 430 degrees F.

Again, kinda spendy to buy, but economical to use. On this project, I've used about 1/2" of this solder, and again, I pick up the left over bits and put 'em in back int the tube for later.

For PE assemblies that don't require multiple solder joints close to each other, ordinary rosin core electical solder works just fine.

I use both a liquid and a paste tinning flux. If you use a paste flux, apply it before the solder and melt it to make it flow. The add the solder and heat.

Here're some fairly inexpensive clamps:

Cross Locking Clamps

Mini Clamps with Springs

Add in a couple of inexpensive cross-locking tweezers and a few copper aligator clamps from Radio Shack (the kinds with the flat tips) for heat sinks.

A small jar of water and paper towel material will also make "wet heat sinks" to protect other solder joints.

I use a butane mini-torch now for all my soldering. I struggled for years trying to use an electrical iron. It's doable, but no fun and very frustrating. The issue is the need to make physical contact between the iron and the PE parts which inevitably disturbs the clamping allignment.

The torch that I'm using right now is one I bought from Northern Tool company for US$10.98. The fuel costs about US$3.50 a can.

Mag-Torch

I believe that Harbor Freight Tools carries a similar item for about the same price. For those who don't live in the US, these are large "chain" tool stores. I'm sure that most places have their local analog.

However, Micro MArk has this one available on-line:

Pen Size Mini Torch

If money is no object, these can be purchased with a self-lightting feature. However, I've learned to use mine with one hand, flipping the on switch and using a butane lighter.

To get your parts ready, allign them and clamp them the best way possible. There's no right or wrong way to do this. All that matters is the parts are held in a position that won't move until after you've applied the heat. Remember that capillary action and heat will draw the melted solder along the joint. However, if the joint is too wide, the solder will not flow along it. The tighter you can get the cold joint, the better it will solder.

The ideal is to have the PE parts folded so that the joints are self-supporting. Look at Brian's stowage boxes in the earlier post - Those boxes will fold nearly perfectly if carefully done, and the joints will not requre any clamping to solder. This is the ideal solution!

Now, here's the SECRET to soldering PE:

You're joining miniature parts so you need a miniature amount of solder. Cut a small grain of rice-sized piece of solder off your stick or wire. Then cut that piece into more, smaller pieces about the size of a big grain of sand. These grain-of-sand-sized pieces of solder are what you apply to the joint of the PE parts. Use the capillary action of the flux to hold them in place until you appy the heat.

Apply the heat using the torch. As soon as the solder melts AND FLOWS remove the heat. More is not better! If the solder melts and does not flow, more heat will not make it flow and risks buring the brass part up. (YES! The PE will burn up like a literal flash. This can also happen when annealing the parts over a gas flame. Be careful with very thin parts like chains and clamps, etc.)

If the solder doesn't flow, the problem is probably a bad flux job. Clean the parts, re-flux, and re-solder. If the joint is dirty (from burned flux or other crud) the solder probably won't flow. When it's right, it works. If it doesn't work, there's something wrong and more heat is probably not the problem.

However, enough heat is required and this is where using an electric iron becomes so frustrating. Applying heat takes a long (relatively speaking) time and the odds are good you'll knock the PE parts out of alignment (probably as soon as the solder melts!).

A torch eliminates this problem entirely, No physical contact is required and the application of the heat is fast. Often just a "whiff" of heat from the torch is all that's needed.

Heat sinks are the other SECRET to model PE soldering. I use two kinds: Wet paper towel and copper alligator clamps. Of the two, I use the wet paper much more often. Simply tear a 1" or so square bit, dip it into the jar of water and then lay it over the solder joint that needs to be protected. Use a dry piece of towel to sop-up any excess water. The flux, solder and heat the adjoining joint as normal.

If I think that the next joint is still iffy, I'll use the low-temp solder for it, too.

Planning the sequence of assembly and soldering is critical, and here experience counts. Each complicated assembly is unique, so there are no hard and fast rules. Just think it through and try to figure out what the heat for any give joint will do the other joints.

There's only one way to gain experience - As the Nike commercial says "Just do it!" You can learn some tips and tricks by reading this or watching a DVD, but in the end, you need to burn-up some PE parts, accidentally de-solder some perfect joints, and otherwise make some mistakes to learn what works for you.

Sometimes it's just easier to add that final little piece using CA or epoxy. It doesn't make you a "lesser" man! It just makes you done to move on to the next modeling challenge.

Sometimes you wind up with cold joints that are just too wide to draw the solder along. If this happens, add a piece of straightened brass wire into the open joint and solder it in.

Soldering the interior or concave of a joint is usually better and easier than soldering the exterior or convex side. So, if you have a choice, go with the interior side of the joint to solder.

Finally, clean-up your solder joints using sand paper and/or files and if you want that high-gloss professional look, buff it out a bit with some 0000-steel wool. I use a small glass jar with cheap laquer thinner to dunk my PE assemblies into to rinse off the flux and other residue. I also wash them in warm water with dish detergent (along with the rest of the model) before painting.

I generally don't prime my models since I figure I use enough paint already.

One last thing - I use two part epoxy glue to joint most PE assemblies and part to my models. CA has its uses, too, but I usually reserve that for small parts.

The technique I have for the two-part epoxy is to use the common stuff that comes in a plastic double-syringe looking dispenser. I squeeze out a dime-sized puddle of each part on opposite sides of a small disposable / recycled plastic cup. I then dip a drop from each puddle using a tooth pick and mix in the a differnet spot on the same cup. (Wipe the tooth pick after dipping the first part to avoid contaminating the second puddle.)

I then dip the part into the mixed glue, dab-off the excess on the cup edge and apply the part to the model. This is a pretty economical and quick method to use the two-part glue, The puddles on your cup will remain good to use for several days.

So, those're my techniques for PE soldering. It's not rocket science nor is it the model-builder's equivalent of some mystical alchemical process whereby brass PE turns a model into gold on the contest table.

You gotta practice, but anyone can learn to master the PE. You do need the right tools, too, but, just like say airbrushing, the expense is relative and not too great I think for the results possible.

HTH,

Thanks Mark.

Some really useful information. Just have to see if I can find the solder or something similar here in Aus. Half my problems could be simply the type of solder I have.

Cheers, John

Hi John,

The Small Shop folding tools are, IMO, the best on the market today.

I also have the original Mission Models Etch Mate that was milled from aluminum, and it's good kit too. However, their newer models are made from a plastic material, so I'm not confident in their durability. These tools get some heavy duty use on my work bench, so this is a concern for me.

Here's a set of demonstration notes from one of our club meetings a couple of months ago:
Demo 2 PE Use Notes

These notes were done up to assist the attendees in remembering the demo's key points, so I appologize for their brevity. Hopefully though, they'll give you some useful tips and information.

Note that not all PE fold lines are designed to work the way they're illustrated in these notes. However, most well designed PE is. For example, some of the older "The Show Modeling" PE fold lines are etched very shallow, so some experimentation might be required. In the main, though, most contemporary PE is made like the illustrations, so if your folds are not lining up cleanly, the problem might be how you're positioning the bending tool along the fold lines.

BTW: I thought the little tip sheet included in the "Hold 'n Fold" was pretty informative. In particular, their explantion fo making a basic "Z" fold was good. This same method applies to making a deep "U" fold too.

"Zap 'a Gap" and most other CA glue brands are pretty much the same in my experience. Some cure a little faster and others don't flow as well, however, CA is pretty much CA, so I would't worry over much about the particular brand that you're using as much as finding a brand and type that works with your style of building.

BTW: I use a technique for CA that's similar to the one I described for epoxy. I squeeze out a drop of CA on a disposable non-pourous surface (again, the bottom of a plastic cup). I then either dip a piece of wire into it and transfer a small drop to the gluing point or I dip the PE part into the glue.

When you dip the part into the glue (or transfer a drop to it using a piece of wire) capillary action will draw the glue to the part. Once this has happened, you can then dab or touch the part to a disposable surface to draw off some of the glue leaving only just enough to attach the part to the model.

With CA and epoxy, less is usually better so as to avoid glue spots and smudges.

If you have any specific questions, don't hesitate to ask here or by PM if you want. You can also follow along with our club's current group-build which is PE specific here:

AMPS Central SC Group-Builds & Demos Page

Finally, I have a build-blog here on Armorama on my Panther subject that is heavy on the PE side of things:

DML #6370 Panther G with AM-Works PE

HTH and happy modeling,

Heartfelt gratitude to you Mike for not only providing all that advice, but including links and makiing it free of the massive BS that seems to come with some people's 'advice'

Thank you for a calear, understandable, enlightening and educational post on soldering. Looooooaaads there for me and others to go at

Chris

I just realized that my math here really sucks!

The "Tix" low-temp solder comes 20, 3-inch sticks to a tube for about US$15. At 1/4-inch of use per model, that comes out to about 12 models per stick or about 240 models per tube. This works out to about US$.07 cents per model worth of solder.

So, the low temp solder is pretty economical once the cost is broken down.

Even a half-stick (1.5-inches) of solder per model means your cost is only about US$.38 cents per model.

Anyways, I wanted to clear that up before someone caught my mistake...

@Chris:

Cheers!

Brian's advice is still very good, and much, if not most, of what I'm saying here is nearly the same as what he was saying. Actually, in so far as it goes, almost everything that I'd suggest is something that someone else, including Brian and many others, has told or shown me, so I claim no credit for original ideas here.

Happy modeling,

Thanks for your pointers Mike.

I've already started using the drop and wire method for my CA. I had tried the needle applicators but found they kept clogging up and were a right royal pain. Then I saw someone on here suggest using the plastic blister trays that medication comes in as a kind of pallet and a piece of wire or a sewing needle with the eye cut in half as an applicator. So now I put a couple of drops in a blister and apply the CA from that. By doing this my little bottle of Zap Thin has lasted a lot longer and surprisingly, given our high humidity, hasn't gone hard in the bottle. Normally I would refrigerate it but I haven't needed to so far.

As for my Hold and Fold, I kind of got the impression something was missing from my set as there was no guide sheet unlike the PE Rolling Kit and the PE Hold and Cut. I just can't shake the feeling that the Hold and Fold can do more and I am not using it to its full potential. For example the shapes at the end of the fingers and the steps. How can I use them? I've book marked a lot of reviews and works in progress to get some idea but most if not all just show the bending applications. Your right about it though. It was its all metal construction that appealed to me the most.

Onto the soldering part, I think I have worked out that the solder I use is inappropriate from the information Brian, PanzerDoc and yourself have supplied. I haven't been able to find a decent supplier of solder here yet as most only deal with more heavier electrician types. The two good electrical hobbyist suppliers ( Dick Smith and Tandies/Radio Shack) have been bought out by Woolworths and deal more in appliances now and not the hobbyist as they first did. I believe the two solders I have are not rosin core so I bought some flux paste just in case. What is you opinion on Solder-it silver bearing solder paste? I have a couple of tubes but I haven't had much luck with it so far.

Cheers, John