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British Ranks
staff_Jim
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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 03:02 PM UTC
Okay...so we want to do 2 seperate rank trees. One for NCOs and one for COs.

Do we want to do WWII era ranks or Modern ranks? Is there a big difference?

Are there enough ranks to give it some depth? Some sites only list 4-5 NCO ranks. Is this really it. http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/wwiiuk.html
Surely there must be somewhere higher to go than Staff Sergeant? I thought Sergeant Major was of British origin?

Anyways let the rank debate begin.

Jim
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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 03:21 PM UTC
Okay...so Warrant Officers in the British Army appear to be different than US.

This is the rank progression for modern.

Private
Lance Corporal
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant / Colour Sergeant
Warrant Officer Class 2 - Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant
Warrant Officer Class 2 - Company Sergeant Major
Warrant Officer Class 1 - Regimental Sergeant Major

Of course both WOC2's are the same level in actuality.

Now the question would be (to bump this 7-8 number up) are there levels of distinction/service that would increase your rank or prestige that we could add to some of the ranks?

Jim

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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 03:40 PM UTC
Jim, as I mentioned to you earlier, it seems all the Common Wealth countries have only 4 or 5 NCO ranks. Hmm...
Come on all you Brits and Canucks and Aussies, what's up with that?!
Puma112
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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 04:01 PM UTC
Jim,

I have seen a number of books which compair the ranks to other countries. Then you run into the WW II, Modern, etc. Great idea...no small task. Let me know if I can point you in the right direction for the NATO forces...I think I have a chart around somewhere

Tracy
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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 08:41 PM UTC
I would love 2 see british ranks
but then ww2

like I posted before no idea if their are diffrences.

but I just luve the ww2 ranks..
MrRoo
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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Okay...so Warrant Officers in the British Army appear to be different than US.

This is the rank progression for modern.

Private
Lance Corporal
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant / Colour Sergeant
Warrant Officer Class 2 - Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant
Warrant Officer Class 2 - Company Sergeant Major
Warrant Officer Class 1 - Regimental Sergeant Major

Of course both WOC2's are the same level in actuality.

Now the question would be (to bump this 7-8 number up) are there levels of distinction/service that would increase your rank or prestige that we could add to some of the ranks?

Jim



Jim between private and lance corporal there is a rank called DRIVER. this is to differenciate between lowly privates and knowledgeable vehicle drivers. Hence in my early posts I always wrote that I was a driver not a private.

The other difference between the two is that Drivers travel up front in confort while privates travel in the "boot" on hard wooden seats.
dioman
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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:32 PM UTC
There is a big difference between WWII and modern Canadian ranks.....in the way they look anyways...I personally would like to see WWII.....they are the same as the British and other Commonwealth.
Twig
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Posted: Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:38 PM UTC
Jim,

As an ex-member of the Royal Air Force I would love to see a rank system depicting RAF ranks. There is a website that lists all the ranks currently used (though I think JT is not used anymore but there may still be some people in the RAF with this rank). The graphics used here are not too far from what could probably be used on armorama.

British Royal Air Force

Some of these ranks are equivalent eg Flight Sergeant/Flight Sergeant Aircrew and are used to delineate ground staff/aircrew but you would be left with a core of 19 ranks that can create a rank structure (officers are from pilot officer onwards).

Is there any scope for adding this rank - I am happy to put some work in here if needed.

Lee
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 01:06 AM UTC
The reason the British have so few enlisted ranks is because the place much more responsibility and rely more on the junior and senior NCO's.
They are trained to think for themselves and their men more than to rely on their officers who will most likely be drinking port in the officers mess!
The Corporal is the backbone of the British Army

Sam
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 01:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jim, as I mentioned to you earlier, it seems all the Common Wealth countries have only 4 or 5 NCO ranks. Hmm...
Come on all you Brits and Canucks and Aussies, what's up with that?!


Kencelot it makes it easier to see 'who is who in the zoo'!

The Basic Rank structure for UK and Common Wealth countries are:

Private
Lance Corporal
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Warrant Officer Class 2
Warrant Officer Class 1


Bombardier (Artillery corporal)
Colour Sergeant (Staff sergeant)
CSM (Usually WO1 although WO2 can fulfil the post)
RSM (WO1)
BSM (WO1)
DSM (WO1)

All of these are seen as appointments and not ranks. Usually only senior WO1s are eligible to become RSMs. RSMs of Senior Regiments or Battalions become BSMs etc...

Jim by using the CSM (Company Sergeant Major) then RSM (Regimental Sergeant Major) then BSM (Brigade Sergeant Major)and then DSM (Divisional Sergeant Major) etc…. you can ‘pad’ the NCO rank system. Also each rank is usually assigned for a temporary period before becoming permanent, this could be anything from one day to a year and is often only noted on official documents ie. the recipient of the rank does not know that it is temporary (usually in this case the rank will be temporary for a day).

Just to confuse you some more. In some Common Wealth countries Warrant Officers / Sergeant Majors are seen as Adjudant Officers and not NCOs.
Merlin
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 08:01 AM UTC
Hi Jim

I was away at the weekend, so I missed all the excitement over new ranks!! DOHHH!!

They're really neat and I'd definitely be keen to see some British ones - RAF as well if possible (seeing as I build aircraft...) :-)

Other than that "General Dogsbody" is the one to aim for... I need to do a few more posts yet!! :-)

All the best

Rowan
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 09:50 AM UTC
Jim

if you go down he road and ad british aussie and canadian ranking system another warrant officer rank you could pad it out with is SSM, squadron sergeant major ( this is for armoured corp )
also in the privatr ranks give the availability for different names for privates ie trooper for armour and gunner for artillery.
maybe you could do the same with the US private ranks to make them more interesting ie give them a trade like diver, driver ,mechanic etc

Savage correct me if im wrong I thought that bsm was for battery sergeant major ( I probably am wrong #:-) )

oh and because of the new rank structure I'm back at the bottom again but i dont mind because i think its an excellent idea.

Anzac
Grumpyoldman
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:20 AM UTC
I personally kept getting busted,
So seaman recuit is fine with me.
Actually I was a fireman recruit..
Fine young lad who upheld navy Traditions to the fullest!
DFF.......
Pnzr-Cmdr
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Do we want to do WWII era ranks or Modern ranks?

Jim I'd really want German WW2 ranks. I think a few others would like that too, as I read in the other post
Anzac
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:03 AM UTC
I agree with many of the other guys that the rank system should be WWII, they are more interesting. How about some Soviet ranks

Anzac #:-)
Savage
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Savage correct me if im wrong I thought that bsm was for battery sergeant major ( I probably am wrong #:-) )


Anzac

Now thats Corps politics, in the Unit (Art) bsm is battery sergeant major, in the Command structure it usually (depending on structure) is Brigade Sergeant Major just as Artillery Corporals are addressed as bombardier.

In the infantry battery sergeant major is known as company sergeant major and in units (armour and signals) he is know as squadron sergeant major and in the repair unit I was in he was know as a Workshop Foreman (No BS).

Hands up all the confused people. Once again it is just a form of address, not his rank.

Jim I suggest:

Private
Driver / Specialist
Lance Corporal or Lance Bombardier (Artillery lance corporal)
Corporal or Bombardier (Artillery corporal)
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant or Colour Sergeant (Preferably)
Sergeant Major 2nd Class
Squadron Sergeant Major) / Company Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major 1st Class
Regimental Sergeant Major
Brigade Sergeant Major
Divisional Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major of the Army
Sergeant Major of the Armed Forces

Anybody got any other suggestions?
zer0_co0l
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 07:36 PM UTC
I like that but we also need officer ranks right?

how are they set up?

can one become monty
Anzac
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Posted: Monday, November 10, 2003 - 08:14 PM UTC
Savage

thanks for setting me straight on that one. Like your idea for the rank structure. with so few ranks it is hard to pad it out to be in line with the US

Anzac #:-)
mikeli125
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:15 AM UTC
and lets not forget the stupid ranks in the guards div,lance sargent,and corpral of the horse,
QMSI- what we used to call the wo2 in charge of the gym in basic and the wo2's who were in the unit but weren't acting as SSM ect called "Q" for short. also dont forget trooper=Tpr signaller=Sig, fusiller=Fus, gaurdsman=GDSM craftsman=CFN and the rank driver=Dvr
was done away with on the 1st of April 1993 when the RCT was dispanded and the RLC was formed:(

wilson
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 03:44 AM UTC
All of you are forgetting the most important Corps in the British (and any) Army, and that is the Engineers. The private rank is a Sapper, and without them an army would all be thirsty, without mine protection and clearance, field machinery, bridges, building and demolitions, and numerous other tasks which generally seem to go un-noticed by many of the normal grunts and tankers.
The Royal Engineers can also claim to have started the RFC, later RAF, RAC, Royal Signals and also held artillery positions when the Royal; Artillery got scared and ran away. They have so many Battle honours that they were awarded the Motto of Ubique, Everywhere which says it all really :-)
So is this the most important rank???
staff_Jim
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 04:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Jim I suggest:

Private
Driver / Specialist
Lance Corporal or Lance Bombardier (Artillery lance corporal)
Corporal or Bombardier (Artillery corporal)
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant or Colour Sergeant (Preferably)
Sergeant Major 2nd Class
Squadron Sergeant Major) / Company Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major 1st Class
Regimental Sergeant Major
Brigade Sergeant Major
Divisional Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major of the Army
Sergeant Major of the Armed Forces

Anybody got any other suggestions?


Are the last two real? If I do one for WWII era ranks what would be the best structure. Keep in mind that it would be nice to show a slightly different insignia for each level. So take "driver" for example. I know their isn't a Private chevron so was their some other identifier on the uniform of a Driver?

Keep the ideas coming!

Cheers,
Jim
Savage
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Sergeant Major of the Army
Sergeant Major of the Armed Forces

Anybody got any other suggestions?


Are the last two real?...............
Cheers,
Jim


Some Common Wealth countries have the former some the latter:

Canada has a Canadian or Armed Force Chief Warrant Officer (or some such)
UK has a (If memory serves) Sergeant Major of the Army
Australia has a Regimental Sergeant Major of the Army
NZ I believe also has a Warrant Officer of the Army or Armed Forces
SA has both, but their structure has changed I think it now is Regimental Sergeant Major Class 1 and Regimental Sergeant Major of the South African National Defence Force


Even the US Army has a Command Sergeant Major of the Army

I can't find anything on WWII British ranks!


Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

All of you are forgetting the most important Corps in the British (and any) Army, and that is the Engineers.


Hi there

It's so sad that Mal (Holdfast) has got serious internet trouble at the moment. He another Engineer and I'm sure he'd take a keen interest in this topic.

Jim... you must be beginning to regret asking how the British/Commonwealth rank structure works... :-)

A big THANK YOU from all of us for taking the time and trouble to tackle all this!

... Now, about those RAF ranks... :-)

All the best

Rowan
mikeli125
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Posted: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 10:23 PM UTC
Jim,
there was a driver badge for the infanty it was a woven steering wheel on a brown/kaki
background and the wheels was woven in white and also tank transporter quailfied
drivers wore a woven patch on the bottom left sleeve of the old woolly pully it was also
white with brown/kaki background and resembled a scamell tranporter with a tank on it
I'll see if I can find some pictures of it only other rank is GSM which is garrison sgt mjr
and he is normally based in the HQ of the garrison

Sorry wilson for forgetting the engrs I was one myself! ex postie
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