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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Treasure-priced Tiger I Late announced!!!
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 03:35 AM UTC
Mike in a way you're sort of wrong about the cost of after-market compared to the MFH kit. If you're an after-market company you have to recoup costs on development and still make a fair profit. And it's very likely that you either 1) won't be able to find what you need at one place or 2) won't be able to find what you need from the same manufacturer; but the even more likely out-come is a combination of both. You also have to take into account that companies have to build their after-market stuff for certain kits. It's all well and good if you sell something for say, a DML kit. But if everyone is buying the Tamiya offering your after-market kits aren't as likely to sell.

But because MFH doesn't need to make 'multiple' sales (because its all-in-one) their kit is technically cheaper than buying a base kit plus after-market goodies. This also compounds if/when MFH decides to do produce an Early or Mid-production kit too.

So really MFH is quite a bargain, even more-so than you've said Mike. Less costs on shipping, everything is in one box, it's all on one very large instruction sheet and designed to work together, it will all fit together correctly and they've saved you from paying multiple venders. We all know 'buying in bulk' is typically cheaper than buying a little bit at a time.

I just hope that something like this kit can maybe help manufactures start looking at more detailed kits. Tamiya and DML always like to say 'this detail is faithfully reproduced!'. What's that supposed to mean? I'm pretty sure the Germans didn't kill anyone with Tiger tanks that didn't have engines and crew compartments, and I'm just as sure the Allies didn't fight the Germans with interior-less tanks either. So how 'faithful' of a reproduction is that then?
Headhunter506
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 03:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

At the same time you do have to compromise accuracy on an internal build because references are incomplete or missing. One of the primary resources of Tiger 1 information is the Bovington Tiger an early vehicle, this is of very limited use if you are building a Late Tiger 1 as I am.

I wish I could get into the French Tiger, I have some good images from my collegues on this forum but even then they are not complete.

If the kit makers have had access to the Samour Tiger then this kit will be an important reference work.


I have to disagree with your comment on compromising accuracy, Steven. That might be true if you were talking about a kit that costs $30-$50, the Academy kit you mentioned being an excellent example (all things being relative, that amount could be considered a substantial financial outlay for some folks). But, when some company wants $500 of my hard earned money for a product being shilled as the ultimate of its type, it damned well better be the ultimate in every way, accuracy being the foremost justification.

The same could be said for AM products which make similar claims. I've had less than satisfactory experiences with interior sets for Tiger I's, II's and Panthers and ended up 86'ing the lot because the products were utter crap. I have to say that the Dub-Dub-Dub has provided those of us interested in replicating accurate models with opportunities unavailable twenty years ago. If the average schmo is able to transform a chickens**t kit into chicken steak using published and online resources, why do big shot kit manufacturers have a difficult time in doing the same? This should be even more the case with "boutique" companies which produce super expensive limited run items. If you're promising to send me Kate Upton,



I don't want to see Maria Ouspenskaya



standing at the door when I open it.

Re the French Tiger, Rob Veenendaal's Panzer Basics web page offers a two DVD set of photos (2100, to be exact ) of both the Tiger I and KT located at Saumur. There are interior and exterior shots for both vehicles. The KT photos, in particular, have been of immeasurable assistance to anyone tackling the inaccuracies and omissions of the 1/16 Trumpeter pig, myself included. The staff at Saumur extended all kinds of courtesies to Rob by allowing him unfettered access to these vehicles; so, it wouldn't have been impossible for for the researchers at Model Hiro to receive the same treatment.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 03:57 AM UTC
I was wondering where this was going when I saw a picture of a beautiful lady on here! I have to agree with you Joseph. DML's recent T28 has some pretty large screw-ups considering there's an unaltered prototype sitting in Fort Knox (or used to be, don't know where it's gone to now). How is that even possible a giant like DML would screw up something as simple as the type of tracks on a giant vehicle like that?

As far as accuracy goes MFH's kit is likely '100% accurate'. At least as far as we know at this point in time. How could they possibly build something that's MORE accurate than is factually proven at this point in time? Plus how many people do we think they've got researching the Tiger? Steven Davies is one man and he's got a fair pace going for his Tiger build log. They've likely got a small team working on it (probably just as many people as DML had to look at the T28's tracks). And considering there are no hard facts on what features were added or removed and when during production (even among production periods Initial/Early etc.) Because things changed on close to a monthly basis.

This is very likely to be the most accurate kit until new, definitive proof is found to say otherwise. At the very least this will be just as accurate as anything available now.
hugohuertas
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 05:24 AM UTC
This arguing/debate is becoming a bit boring, buy I'll contribute to bore a bit more...
How can this kit be defined as almost 100% accurate or even the most accurate until now, when the only actual things we've seen are a bunch of parts -some of them plainly wrong- and some CAD images -that also show mistakes and inaccuracies-?
Maybe you don't find Mr. Byrden a Tiger I "connaiseur" so his opinion is worthless for you, but for me he's a main reference when we're talking about this particular tank, and with just a fast preview he pointed out a number of wrong suff both in the CAD images and some of the parts shown...

A 500 bucks kit not so accurate "a bargain"? Please, give me a break... Anyway, if anyone feels that this is the Tiger I panacea and is happy to spend in it a good amount of hundreds, then go for it and enjoy.
Its even possible that these people fix and/or correct the kit until its release.
Luckily, today we have such a variety of offerings that everybody can find what's suitable for him/her...
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 05:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This arguing/debate is becoming a bit boring, buy I'll contribute to bore a bit more...
How can this kit be defined as almost 100% accurate or even the most accurate until now, when the only actual things we've seen are a bunch of parts -some of them plainly wrong- and some CAD images -that also show mistakes and inaccuracies-?
Maybe you don't find Mr. Byrden a Tiger I "connaiseur" so his opinion is worthless for you, but for me he's a main reference when we're talking about this particular tank, and with just a fast preview he pointed out a number of wrong suff both in the CAD images and some of the parts shown...

A 500 bucks kit not so accurate "a bargain"? Please, give me a break... Anyway, if anyone feels that this is the Tiger I panacea and is happy to spend in it a good amount of hundreds, then go for it and enjoy.
Its even possible that these people fix and/or correct the kit until its release.
Luckily, today we have such a variety of offerings that everybody can find what's suitable for him/her...


Er, when has David ever commented on this kit? He's no where to be found on the first page and nor is he here on the second. And since you so obviously value and closely follow Mr. Bryden please direct me to his comments on this kit, as I too respect his option, contrary to what you think.

I can't speak for Joseph or Mike, but I can assume as you already have. None of us are trying to convince anyone to buy this kit nor are we trying to 'sell' it to people. We're looking at it in an objective fashion simply because we can and we're interested in the subject.
Byrden
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 06:01 AM UTC
Christopher;

Sorry, but this kit is clearly a fluid work-in-progress and I don't want to spend the time checking it when it can change the next day. Let's wait and see what is in the actual box.

David
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 06:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Christopher;

Sorry, but this kit is clearly a fluid work-in-progress and I don't want to spend the time checking it when it can change the next day. Let's wait and see what is in the actual box.

David


I knew I failed to hear about you saying the kit was 'inaccurate'. You never said it that's why. Thanks for checking in David. Looking forward to reading your opinion on this once it's out, if only to read about the kit.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 06:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Er, when has David ever commented on this kit? He's no where to be found on the first page and nor is he here on the second. And since you so obviously value and closely follow Mr. Bryden please direct me to his comments on this kit, as I too respect his option, contrary to what you think.

I can't speak for Joseph or Mike, but I can assume as you already have. None of us are trying to convince anyone to buy this kit nor are we trying to 'sell' it to people. We're looking at it in an objective fashion simply because we can and we're interested in the subject.


In fairness to hugohuertas, he was referring to a similar discussion, about this model, which took place at Missing Lynx. David Byrden did have some comments about it.
jimbrae
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 07:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



Er, when has David ever commented on this kit? He's no where to be found on the first page and nor is he here on the second. And since you so obviously value and closely follow Mr. Bryden please direct me to his comments on this kit, as I too respect his option, contrary to what you think.

I can't speak for Joseph or Mike, but I can assume as you already have. None of us are trying to convince anyone to buy this kit nor are we trying to 'sell' it to people. We're looking at it in an objective fashion simply because we can and we're interested in the subject.


In fairness to hugohuertas, he was referring to a similar discussion, about this model, which took place at Missing Lynx. David Byrden did have some comments about it.


I concur. David Bryden did make some comments on the CAD images. Normally, i'm the first to dislike the 'instant review' but, in this case, the company did leave the hangar door open. When any company makes claims using words such as 'definitive', then they do set themselves up somewhat? Obviously CAD Images are subject to change, but it wasn't very smart throwing them out there and NOT expecting a comment/s/critique?
gremlinz
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 11:54 AM UTC
Just my 2c.

On price : It's a lot. If it's worth it then no problem, if not there's still many who will buy it. Japan is the market primarily and it'll sell there at that price no worries. Their first "Ultimate" kit was a 1/700 ship tarted up to the nines and it sold out straight away.

On accuracy : As David mentioned it's a work in progress and MFH have shown a willingness to go back and redo stuff. They corrected the CAD image of the turret ring within 24 hrs and have gone back to the drawing board on the hull.

People like to criticise but give them a chance to at least correct errors. We usually commend manufacturers willing to take on board feedback and make changes along the way ( if MFH don't and leave the hull as it is then criticise away, but at least give them the benfit of the doubt until we see the final product ).

Then when it's done and dusted if it's too pricey just don't buy it.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 12:11 PM UTC
But, David was here and failed to mention that he'd already commented on the kit. Oh well, I don't bother with Missing Lynx unless they come up in a search via Google, don't like their lay-out and find the site a bit tedious; always smart reviews though.

As Dean said, MFH is willing to admit their mistakes and correct things; we should be commending them for this. Just two weeks ago Meng had a small issue with the AUF-1 that they fixed which I don't remember seeing anything about here on Armorama.

And really, if we're going to go on definite facts, I did say likely.


Quoted Text

likely '100% accurate'.


And I did also say that this 'accuracy' should be based off of current knowledge of the subject.

Either way, looking forward to David's review of the production kit.
darkknight69
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 03:39 AM UTC
I've got it on pre-order, I also like the tapered antennae they sell separately
PantherF
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 04:50 AM UTC
This is when a model stops being a model and starts to look more like a toy.

They might as well put some RC gear in it at this price.










~ Jeff
stef29
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 03:11 PM UTC
Personally Ive enjoyed improving the accuracy of the kits myself with aftermarket and scratch, as much for the research as the work. You really learn a great deal about history, new techniques, and meet great people doing all the searching and digging. Of course I'd love to build an ultra accurate kit, not gonna lie.
jugjunkie
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 06:27 PM UTC
Horses for courses - If they had put a $700 price tag on it, it would still sell because a bunch of people would want it, maybe not as many as would pay $500, but enough for them to still walk away with enough profit to pay the rent and start work on their next "definitive" kit. I won't get into the detail issue because that is really far too subjective when dealing with second world war German armour and regardless how many times we re-hash it, nobody on planet Earth can claim to have the right answer.

I will not be buying one for the simple reason I don't want any of my models "opened up". I have great pleasure in showing a model as it stood on the battle ground so i am not a horse for this particular course but I will say this - IF i had the cash, I would buy one simply to have it because like the Eduard Royal Class offerings, they are unique, beautiful and collectable and that's enough for me.
jimbrae
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 07:54 PM UTC
To paraphrase:

Vanity, vanity, thy name is MFH?

Too many whys, wherefores and general doubts for my taste...
SDavies
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 08:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I've got it on pre-order, I also like the tapered antennae they sell separately


Really?

I have only seen a few CAD drawings so far with a few images of the hull, I would not order anything this expensive without seeing detailed images of it otherwise you risk being burned.

S
AngloSaxon
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 12:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Really?

I have only seen a few CAD drawings so far with a few images of the hull, I would not order anything this expensive without seeing detailed images of it otherwise you risk being burned.

S


If you look here, there are now some detailed photos of what to expect: MFH Ultimate Tiger

Mike.
SDavies
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 12:49 AM UTC
Hello Mike,

I see, they have added lots of new images! Wow all those white metal parts are going to make the Tiger very heavy.

The model is actually very very impressive, but the hull floor is wrong, it has clear steps that are not part of the Tiger 1, I guess that this is a design compromise to fit their suspension.

That engine looks super, I am impressed I admit, the zimerit does not look great though.

The ultimate Tiger would be (in my humble opinion) this interior grafted into a Dragon Late Tiger 1
Byrden
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 01:58 AM UTC
Steven;
could you point out where these "clear steps" are?

Myself, I don't want to analyse the kit until the design is final; but you seem to have noticed something that I didn't.

David
SDavies
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 02:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Steven;
could you point out where these "clear steps" are?

Myself, I don't want to analyse the kit until the design is final; but you seem to have noticed something that I didn't.

David


Hello David,

Have a look at image 3 of 83:

http://www.modelfactoryhiro.com/new/en/archives/7664

There is a long block of plastic or a step which is not present on the actual Tiger 1
Headhunter506
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 04:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Steven;
could you point out where these "clear steps" are?

Myself, I don't want to analyse the kit until the design is final; but you seem to have noticed something that I didn't.

David


Look at this, David:




The "step" is used to accomodate the gen-oo-wine, ultimately reproduced, 100% authentic magnetically operated suspension as is found on the real Tiger I.


Quoted Text

The suspension is attached by magnets in order to let it move as the real tank does.


Is that so? Learn sumpthin' new every day.....

This compromise to accuracy causes the interior location of the torsion bar/suspension arm bearings to be completely inaccurate. "Compromise" for the sake of a gimmicky feature is totally unacceptable and doesn't justify the five hundred clams for something shilled as the "ultimate". For this kind of money, MFH might as well have designed accurately reproduced functioning torsion bars. Heck, you get that from DML, albeit in plastic.
Byrden
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 04:56 AM UTC
Well, this may be helpful;



David
Headhunter506
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 05:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well, this may be helpful;



David


That's why your site is the best resource for anyone interested in the Tiger I. There's more than enough information available to allow someone so inclined as to scratch their own interior. What?!? not up to the task?!? Practice makes perfect. And, for a hell of a lot less than five hundred simolians.
SDavies
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Posted: Monday, February 18, 2013 - 05:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Well, this may be helpful;



David


That's why your site is the best resource for anyone interested in the Tiger I. There's more than enough information available to allow someone so inclined as to scratch their own interior. What?!? not up to the task?!? Practice makes perfect. And, for a hell of a lot less than five hundred simolians.


Thats what I am doing now with my Tiger 1

As I said Ultimate Tiger is a mix of verlinden and this interior with a Late Dragon hull and turret with alot of scratch building.

And I cant believe they compromised the interior with their realistic suspension
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