Hi guys,

Just a quick question. I would like to build a M151A1 in MP markings during the Vietnam War. However, I also want to mount the extended tailpipe at the rear and fording "chimney" extending out from underneath the hood (simply because I feel it makes the vehicle more interesting).

Alternatively, perhaps I could mount a post with a blue "police light" at the rear left corner instead of the extended tailpipe? I have seen this on some restored vehicles.

I am struggling to find any pics of MP Mutt's in Vietnam with these fittings, perhaps the fording gear and extended tailpipes were not used by MP units?

Does anyone have any information they can share (at least whether these items - i.e. wading pipe, extended tailpipe, police lamp on a post) were mounted on MP Mutts in-country or not?

Many thanks in advance for any help you can give.
Sven

I believe that wading pipe and extended tailpipe were only used by the Marines.

Thank you Pawel, that was what I feared.

Did the USMC in Vietnam have their own branch of MP's by any chance?

The USMC does not have MPs. Navy SPs (Shore Patrol) are used to fulfill any law enforcement duties.

Thanks Gino!

Ok, looks like I will need to drop the MP idea if I want my M151A1 to have the wading gear and extended tailpipe mounted.

USMC it is :-)

The fording kit can be added to any MUTT. I restore the 1:1 version of these and the new old stock kits I use from army depots.

The warning beacon is an actual kit for the MUTT as well and mounts on the drivers side on a ten foot mast that goes vertical from the nearly the bottom edge of the vehicle on up - only reason for putting it there is to simplify the wiring. That said, most old school lights were added on in a shop and could be fitted anywhere. When I add a fording kit to my MUTTS, I move the warning beacon to the passenger side - I also shorten it because it's so ridiculously tall I cant get it under the garage door! I have to remove a couple of inches from the tail pipe as well.

I this pic you can see my MUTT - note how the lip where the soft top doors slide down is flattened at the very bottom to accommodate a light kit I previous had mounted. ALso - missing the models is a brace that goes from the intake snorkel to the steering column for support - I removed mine on this one because this particular one has a Canadian roll cage on it and it got in the way. Note also that there is a rubber hose that goes from the engine air filter to the snorkel - I think the model kits just have it appear as if the metal part of the snorkel goes all the way in. Turn signal lamps are different on the A1 of course - but are Amber in color - in this pic they look red, but really they are very yellow.



Also - being an old squid myself I can tell you that the Jarheads had their own Military Police. Navy shore patrol was more of a security service than a police force. In fact, we'd call on the Jarheads when we needed actual police type of work to be done. Us sailors are too important to be tasked with such menial duties (ha ha...) Just kidding... I actually had to work and live with the marines as their liaison officer on the LPD and LSDs I was on.

1st Military Police Battalion: May 1966-June 1971

http://www.recordsofwar.com/vietnam/usmc/1stMP_Bn.htm

3rd Military Police Battalion: May 1967- August 1970

http://www.recordsofwar.com/vietnam/usmc/3rdMP_Bn.htm

H.P.

Check reference pictures! I think the large turn signal lenses and recessed fender were on the M151A2, which I worked on as a mechanic. There were some older M151A1s with large turn signals "modified" to fit.

Also they had a "split" windshield, unlike the A2. There were other differences, but those are the first to come to mind.

The pic above is of a post-Vietnam M151A2. For the differences (most are listed already), check out the M151 Article here on Armorama.

For a Vietnam MP M151A1, I have not seen any pics of them having the blue light. Some did seem to have a red light mounted on the right fender though.




Some with light and siren.


A few more.



Lastly, even though the froding gear can be fitted to any M151, Army vehicles do not usually have them.

Lots of differences with the A2 versus previous models - most aren't obvious in a model - like windshield washer fluid pump, electric fuel pump, ectc - but the new kits of the older A1 are pretty accurate with the exception of little things like the gas cap, and the spare tire retaining plate for example. In all kits the seat frames and seat covers are wrong as well as parts of the suspension ,

However - I think the original question was can an MP jeep in Vietnam have a fording kit - I think the short answer was yes - but more likely on a marine corps mp jeep. Ya - the sirens at the time often had a built in light - but I imagine the bubble gum light might also have been around but I haven't noticed any Vietnam era pics with this on them.

There is/was no such thing as a USMC MP jeep. As stated above, the USMC does not have MPs. When needed, US Navy Shore Patrol (SPs) provide law enforcement support to the USMC. It is just like the USMC does not have any medical personnel. All their medics are USN Hospital Corpsmen.

Hi Gino

It looks that the USMC had MP battalions in Vietnam indeed, along with Shore Party Battalions :

http://books.google.fr/books?id=pTRwuSsDUc8C&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=usmc+MP+battalion+vietnam&source=bl&ots=ZdTZqpxgmf&sig=Vx0eNlZ3JQiPWesi2yMbut6yfLs&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=RVMZVJPqKZHYarbrgIAK&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q=usmc%20MP%20battalion%20vietnam&f=false

http://www.vetfriends.com/militarypics/large.cfm?picture=11299

Markings on the jeeps they used is another story...

According to the caption, this one belonged to the "3rd Marine Division Armed Forces Police" in Da Nang :




H.P.

Wow guys, I totally missed all the fantastic input on this thread these past few days, I am so sorry I did not respond earlier.

Many, many thanks for all the pics and valuable information, very much appreciated.

Actually, I have been hunting for any pics of M151's in Vietnam (USMC or otherwise, not MP vehicles) with the fording kits mounted, and am unable to find any. All the pics I can find of Mutts fitted with these items are of A2's, post-Vietnam. Perhaps the fording kits did not come into being until after the Vietnam War?

By the way, I can very much recommend the recent Legend update set for the M151. It includes all the struts and attachments for the fording kit as well. Very nice indeed.
If they had thrown in some wheels as well, that would have been even better.

Thanks again for all your help!
Sven

Hhmm. OK, I guess things have changed a bit. From the write-up, it sounds like they were cobbled together from another unit at MARDIV HQ to fill a need in country. As you say though, no telling how their jeeps were marked.

The Shore Party Bns were logistical units that moved cargo from ship to shore, then around to different bases. They had nothing to do with MPs.

The fording kits were around during Vietnam, they just were not common then. There was not much of a call for the vehicles to ford creeks and rivers in Vietnam. The terrain didn't support it and there was a pretty good road network that most M151s stayed on.

Thanks, Gino, I suspected that was the case regarding the use of fording kits in Vietnam. I will save those parts for a post-Vietnam M151 :-)

Suspension on the M151A1 allowed the rear of the vehicle to "Lift" in a curve instead of leaning until it flipped over. Looking at the two vehicles you would not notice any difference in the rear suspension. This was corrected in the newer M151A2 version.

Actually, you can tell the difference in the rear suspensions between an M151A1 and an M151A2. From underneath, they look very different.


(#2 is an M1A1 model, while #1 is an M1A2 model.)

M151A1 underside.


M151A2 underside.


From the rear as well. You can see the different shape of the support arms (straight on A1, curved on A2) and the different position of the shocks (farther outboard on the A1).

M151A1


M151A2




Some other ID features.






The A1 trailing arm suspension did tend to tuck under the vehicle and caused it to roll if cornered too fast. The A2 suspension corrected this by using an A-Arm suspension which moved the hinge point to the front so the wheel would travel straight up and down in the wheel well from front to back, as opposed to tucking in toward the centerline of the vehicle.

Fortunately, the "new-ish" Tamiya M151A1 has the correct rear suspension (even though it is still lacking a lot of other details on the underside of the vehicle).

They did miss the flat steering wheel, though, still including the A2 version.

Legends M151A1 update set would have you mount the "M113-style" light in the middle of the dashboard (to the right of the instrument cluster). I wonder if that is entirely correct for an M151A1, unless retrofitted?

Sven

The light on the dashboard was a field modification. It was not standard on any M151 version. The light was available in Vietnam, so it could have been added by a handy crewman.


Yup, Tamiya did a pretty good job of backdating their M151A1. They did leave a few items though, the steering wheel being the biggest issue. On mine, I replaced the wheel with a spare Ford GPW wheel. It is a little smaller in diameter, but close enough for me.

You can see my whole build review on the Tamiay M151A1 here. And just a review of the kit here.

In the interior pictures of the M151A1 the turn signal is a retro fit as are the seat belts.

Thanks Jim and Gino!

Gino, I read your review of the Tamiya kit with great interest. Its a shame that they still missed a few things, but as you say as long as the steering wheel is replaced it pretty much holds up as an A1. I plan to do the same as you regarding that item.

Slightly off-topic: I found some interesting variants of the M151A1 in Danish service, which is slightly different from US versions. One of the A1 versions used by the Danish Army was equipt with TOW, and (apart from it being an A1) differs slightly from the US M151A2 with TOW. It could be an interesting project.

TOW Vehicle:

http://m151a1.dk/m151a1images/m151a1_rsvg1.jpg

http://m151a1.dk/m151a1images/m151a1_rsvg3.jpg

http://www.armyvehicles.dk/images/m151a1_tow.jpg

TOW support vehicle (whch also carries the spare wheel and jerry can for the TOW vehicle):

http://m151a1.dk/m151a1images/m151a1_fsvg2.jpg

http://m151a1.dk/m151a1images/m151a1_fsvg3.jpg

All pics should be credited to the owners, show here for discussion purposes only.

[/quote] There is/was no such thing as a USMC MP jeep. As stated above, the USMC does not have MPs. When needed, US Navy Shore Patrol (SPs) provide law enforcement support to the USMC. It is just like the USMC does not have any medical personnel. All their medics are USN Hospital Corpsmen.[/quote]

As a former Recon Marine, I can assure you that the Marine Corps has MPs of their own. Every once in a while I would have to talk to them about the actions of one of my Marines. Their MOS is 5811 and I do believe there were Marine MPs in Vietnam because I doubt the MOS was created in the 1980s. However, it is true that we did not have Marine Chaplains and Medical Personnel. Those were Navy personnel assigned to us.

Now as to the fording kits being used by Marine MP Mutts, I doubt they were put on because those vehicles probably remained at the larger bases and stayed on roads if outside the bases.

Cheers,
James

To go completly off topic - anyone else that drove these things have trouble catching their pant legs in the axe holder pieces and tearing thier thigh on the gas cap tabs when sliding in and out? I still have scars on the backside of my thighs before I learned to bypass those damn sharp edges.

nobody in their right mind would have been caught outside the wire after the sun went down in a jeep! Least wise not with out plenty of cover. Jeeps (all of them) were pretty much confined to the roads (better ones) due to their bad side. Even then (daylight) it was uncommon to see one on the road much more then 15 kilometers from their main base.

Jeeps usually had a layer of sandbags in the floor. Most always traveled with the windshield in the upright position. Some had a cable cutter affair in front of the grill. The MP's I saw stayed on Highway One mostly, but they also had better roads down south so you'd see them on some of the east/west roads. A rare sight in I-Corps. Most MP Jeeps had an M60 mounted on a pedestal behind the driver. Yet I cannot ever remember seeing one shot! Jeeps that saw a lot of use rarely had the tops installed, and I saw at least two radio packages in them. They were just something you didn't want to get shot at when driving down the road. The M37 was a much better truck, and even it had it's shortfalls. Nobody in their right mind would be out on the road and expecting to met an ambush head on! A mine would have turned you into toast!

Once you left the big bases and got out on the roads, it was a different world. You always had a second set of eyes watching every clump of trees and bushes for a gun barrel. Once you got past the fifteen klick distance it became creepy. Even though at times you could look over your shoulder and barely see the big places like DaNang and Chu Lai. That's why the M54 was king. Without the governor, they'd easily do over a hundred mph! We usually rolled along at 70+mph for three reasons. MP's couldn't begin to chase you, harder to shoot at, and land mines always have a slight delay.

I picked up a new Tamiya kit awhile back to duplicate a photo I found of yours truly sitting in the CO's Jeep. Must say it looks really good. I look at the photo, and don't even know who the kid is in the front seat!
gary