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Sorry Paul but that is what they are for, Information from the The Garrison who are re-enactors of WW1 and WW2 Royal Artillery, a large number of them ex-gunners.

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OK, I'm obviously not getting the picture here. :-)

So you wrap the rope around the tabs, rather like the rope on a windlass, anchoring one end to the hub and then pull the free end that you have let pay out the front thereby providing an extra torque to the wheel by virtue of the distance from the wheel hub to the rope strung across the tabs?

Wouldn't this mean you have to rewind the rope over the tabs every so often as you unwind the windlass?

If this is how it works, I can see the mechanical advantage, but it seems clumsy unless its used only in extremis and for very short distances.

If I haven't gotten it right yet, I'm obviously missing something and need pictures as well. :-)

Paul

In Osprey's book on US anti-tank guns, the British designed 57mm appears to be the only AT gun in US inventory with a ring attached to the hub. I suspect the ring in US service was intended for hoisting the gun. The M2 had the rear caster wheel, so the crew could move it easier without dragging the trail.

Mike,
Perhaps the 25 and 17 lb guns used an "eye" instead of a "hook", at the end of the rope to attach to the tabs around the wheels? The US M1 and M2 carriages for the 57mm Gun (the same as the British 6 Pounder, but produced in the United States)seem to retain the ring on the hub, but not the hooks around the rim. Perhaps this is because the rim had openings? In Osprey's book on US anti-tank guns, the British designed 57mm appears to be the only AT gun in US inventory with a ring attached to the hub. I suspect the ring in US service was intended for hoisting the gun. The M2 had the rear caster wheel, so the crew could move it easier without dragging the trail. This is an interesting discussion-- are there any other Commonwealth artillery with the same hook/tab and eye configurations? VR, Russ

Paul, I asked my ex Father in Law if he knew what they were for as he used 6 Pdrs during his national service and he may have the answer which was similar to that i heard years ago.

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In Osprey's book on US anti-tank guns, the British designed 57mm appears to be the only AT gun in US inventory with a ring attached to the hub. I suspect the ring in US service was intended for hoisting the gun. The M2 had the rear caster wheel, so the crew could move it easier without dragging the trail.

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The US used the "drag washers" for drag ropes as well. See page 26 here and page 44 for carriages with a caster wheel.

KL

Mike I accept your arguement on the 17 and 25pdr and so I will ask that the group to show me exactly how this works on the 25pdr and take pictures. This will take me some time as I am finding it hard to get up to the camp at the moment.

I can easily see this procedure working on the 6 pdr. The rim-tabs (for want of a better name) are notched on their sides so as to hook the rope as it's being pulled.



This would seem to be possible and maybe quite effective to get the gun out of a rut or hole or to get it moving if stuck in mud. After the wheel rotated, the rope would slip off of each successive tab until it was only attached to the hub ring, still allowing for pulling in the normal manner. The crew could even use chocks and work the gun up a pretty steep slope (a foot or two at a time). An extreme measure, but workable.

However, the rim-tabs on the 25 pdr and 17 pdr hook TOWARDS the center / hub of the wheel and not outward or circumferential (as on the 6 pdr rims). It would seem to me that as soon as any tension was exerted on the ropes to turn the 25 pdr or 17 pdr wheels, the rope would slip off the backside of the rim-tab.

For this procedure to work on the 25 pdr pr 17 pdr, it would seem that the rim-tabs would have to be facing the opposite direction. That is, the hook side would have to be facing away from the center of the wheel.

I simply can't envision how this rope hauling assist would or could work on the 25 pdr or 17 pdr.

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I can easily see this procedure working on the 6 pdr. The rim-tabs (for want of a better name) are notched on their sides so as to hook the rope as it's being pulled.



This would seem to be possible and maybe quite effective to get the gun out of a rut or hole or to get it moving if stuck in mud. After the wheel rotated, the rope would slip off of each successive tab until it was only attached to the hub ring, still allowing for pulling in the normal manner. The crew could even use chocks and work the gun up a pretty steep slope (a foot or two at a time). An extreme measure, but workable.

However, the rim-tabs on the 25 pdr and 17 pdr hook TOWARDS the center / hub of the wheel and not outward or circumferential (as on the 6 pdr rims). It would seem to me that as soon as any tension was exerted on the ropes to turn the 25 pdr or 17 pdr wheels, the rope would slip off the backside of the rim-tab.

For this procedure to work on the 25 pdr pr 17 pdr, it would seem that the rim-tabs would have to be facing the opposite direction. That is, the hook side would have to be facing away from the center of the wheel.

I simply can't envision how this rope hauling assist would or could work on the 25 pdr or 17 pdr.

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I can't vouch for the larger guns but the Australian gunners in the new guinea campaign hauled two full sized 25 pounders up the golden staircase on the kokoda track which must have taken days if not weeks.

I can't vouch for the larger guns but the Australian gunners in the new guinea campaign hauled two full sized 25 pounders up the golden staircase on the kokoda track which must have taken days if not weeks.

FWIW, the 1940 Handbook for the 25-PR., Mark II on Carriage, 25 PR,
Mark I says" Ten hooks are welded under the curved edges of the (wheel) rim, five on each side, for the attachment of a manhandling drag rope".

Perhaps this allows some sense of credibility when discussing the same aspect on the 6-PR. I suspect that memories of trying manhandle the guns in the mud of WWI might have been a motivator.

Ron Volstad

In my search for the answer to this question about the 6 pdr rim "hooks," I came across a very detailed 19th century set of cannon crew instructions which included the command to "Point."

Hello Mike,

Just found this photo. May help.

http://www.britishskytours.com/images/HORSA%20ATG.jpg

Crew loading a 17 pdr. on to a Horsa glider.

See ya in the funnies................

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Well, that is about as official a statement of intended purpose as we're likely to discover. Surely the author of the HB knew what he was talking about.

The orientation of the hooks still causes me to ponder how "the attachment of a manhandling drag rope" was supposed to have been done.

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