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Armor/AFV: AA/AT/Artillery
For discussions about artillery and anti-aircraft or anti-tank guns.
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Q: Purpose of Tabs on 6 pdr Rims?
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2015 - 06:37 AM UTC
Mike, I finally looked in my 57mm TM. The US drag ropes look exactly like those in your picture from CZ. They are described as being a "15-foot length of 5/8-inch manila rope with a hook at one end and two rings at the other end." One detail is that the hook has a leather strap on it with what appears to be an slit in the point. My guess is that this allows mousing the hook. As you can see in the photo, the chain end uses a thimble in the eye. The chain loops might have connected to a harness for the gun handlers.

KL
SdAufKla
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2015 - 07:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mike, I finally looked in my 57mm TM. The US drag ropes look exactly like those in your picture from CZ. They are described as being a "15-foot length of 5/8-inch manila rope with a hook at one end and two rings at the other end." One detail is that the hook has a leather strap on it with what appears to be an slit in the point. My guess is that this allows mousing the hook. As you can see in the photo, the chain end uses a thimble in the eye. The chain loops might have connected to a harness for the gun handlers.

KL



The mousing strap is an interesting detail that hasn't show up in any other photos. Something to keep the hook from falling off the drag washer would certainly make sense.

It's also entirely possible that the chains might have been intended to connect harnesses for the crew when dragging the piece.

I have to say, though, one of my first thoughts went back to your comment about how hard the rim hooks would have been on the rope. If the chains and rings were intended to be used connected to rim hooks on opposite sides of the rim, then this durability issue would seem to be resolved.

The paired, Y-design of the chains and hooks also fits well with the presence of rim hooks on both sides of the rim. This feature, hooks on both sides of the rims, never really matched the other possible explanations that used the rope in a windless manner. All of the wheels on the pieces discussed can only be mounted on the carriages in one direction. Any attempt to wind the rope around the rim hooks on the inside of the wheel seemed very implausible.

I really do think that Michael's photo of the Aussies dragging the field gun up the slope coupled with the Y-chains and rings on the 6 pdr drag rope is the answer to the question. As odd as it may seem, I think this was the intended function and use of the rim hooks.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2015 - 08:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The mousing strap is an interesting detail that hasn't show up in any other photos.



When I was writing my last post I thought one might be present on the short rope (far left) in the CZ photo. Either that, or the hook was wildly opened up . . .

KL
SdAufKla
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2015 - 09:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The mousing strap is an interesting detail that hasn't show up in any other photos.



When I was writing my last post I thought one might be present on the short rope (far left) in the CZ photo. Either that, or the hook was wildly opened up . . .

KL



I see now what you're looking at in that photo. I had just thought that the hook was pulled open. It could well be that's the leather strap.

Unfortunately, the website with the resto photos didn't have a second photo of the drag ropes from the other end.
cmpman55
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 04:50 AM UTC
This is an older thread, so I will apologize for reviving it. I, like the original poster, was wondering how the drag ropes worked, and a google search led me to here. I did not buy the theory about merely attaching the hook to the loop and threading it around the tabs of the rim. It also didn't explain why there were tabs on the inside of the British artillery rims.

I am more of a 1:1 scale modeller, and since I work at an artillery museum, I was able to try out some original drag ropes on an original 25 pounder. As noted earlier in this thread, one end of the drag rope has a simple hook with a slot to install the leather safety strap, so it does not de-tach when you are dragging the gun. You would do this on relatively level ground when you do not need the extra mechanical advantage.

For ruts or obstacles, the other end of the drag ropes have two short chains with rings. The rings will hook onto opposite sides of the rim, resulting in the rope being centered on the rubber. Now, by pulling on the rope, you gain mechanical advantage for the short distance that you can pull it before running out of rope.

I have attached some photos of the hook end attached to a 25 pdr, and 2 photos of the rings attached to a 25 pounder. The 6 pounder uses a similar drag rope. In the last photo I have shown why I doubt merely wrapping the rope like shown in the photo earlier in the thread would work. The ring is not in line with the tabs, and the tire balloons out a bit from the tabs. Both of these would cause the rope to slip off the tabs. As well, you would not be gaining the same mechanical advantage as if you had the rope on the rubber of the tire.

The kit list for both the 25 pounder and the 6 pounder was for 2 drag ropes per gun. I have the remnants of one rope now, so will now be in the market for a second one for one of my own 25 pounders.













KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 05:24 AM UTC
Hi Rob:

That certainly makes sense. Thanks for the effort of trying out the real thing!

KL
jon_a_its
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 03:32 PM UTC
As Cmpman55's pics show, the chained end of the rope could be used to engage the lugs on either side of the wheel rim for short movements.

I asked an old gunner at the RA300 'do ' at Larkhill & he confirmed this...
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 05:39 PM UTC

I get the impression that the longest distance that the wheel can be turned with the rope attached as in the image above is 2/5-ths of a full circle (72 degrees).
Attach at the tab which is below the one currently used, the wheel can be turned until this tab is at the position above the one currently used. The image above would thus be approximately at halfway through the pull.

/ Robin
SdAufKla
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Posted: Monday, February 27, 2017 - 08:06 PM UTC
Thanks, Rob!

I'd say at least for me, mystery solved.

I'll second Kurt's appreciation about taking the time to figure it out using the actual items and then posting up your findings.

Cheers!
DazzaD
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Posted: Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 09:37 AM UTC
Top work Rob, have been watching this one quietly waiting for the final answer! Thanks for going to the effort.
cmpman55
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Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 05:28 AM UTC
Happy to have been able to help out. As I mentioned, I have been wondering how the ropes work as well, and could not find a direct answer on the net, and certainly not in the manuals.

I own a few artillery pieces myself, and have done enough of the tires at work as well as in my own hobby to have recognized that those little tabs had something to do with it. I asked on a military vehicle forum that I frequent (Maple Leaf Up) and one of the moderators posted the 6 pdr photo from this thread. Having repaired a number of those tires, I was pretty sure it wouldn't work. I note that in this thread, many of you also saw the difficulties of it working by wrapping the rope onto the claws.

I had to unstrap and unwrap the drag rope off a gun-shield at work, and it was instantly obvious. However, I am still surprised that the manuals don't cover it. Normally the army has a manual for just about every minute thing you could ever imagine.

Here are shots of the dragropes in use...one with similar vintage artillery and one with earlier artillery. These two photos were found on the net by others on MLU forum.



jon_a_its
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Posted: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 04:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Happy to have been able to help out. As I mentioned, I have been wondering how the ropes work as well, and could not find a direct answer on the net, and certainly not in the manuals.

I own a few artillery pieces myself, and have done enough of the tires at work as well as in my own hobby to have recognized that those little tabs had something to do with it. I asked on a military vehicle forum that I frequent (Maple Leaf Up) and one of the moderators posted the 6 pdr photo from this thread. Having repaired a number of those tires, I was pretty sure it wouldn't work. I note that in this thread, many of you also saw the difficulties of it working by wrapping the rope onto the claws.

I had to unstrap and unwrap the drag rope off a gun-shield at work, and it was instantly obvious. However, I am still surprised that the manuals don't cover it. Normally the army has a manual for just about every minute thing you could ever imagine.

Here are shots of the dragropes in use...one with similar vintage artillery and one with earlier artillery. These two photos were found on the net by others on MLU forum.





Interesting pic of a,(in British Arty parlance) Five-Five...

Your mention of manuals reminded me, at the RA330 'do' I saw an old Gunner teaching a DUTCH reenactor five-five crew the correct loading drill, as the relevant manual had never been translated into Dutch.
cmpman55
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Posted: Monday, March 13, 2017 - 09:28 AM UTC
I found the official answer in the gun drill manual from which I quote:

Quoted Text


394. Dragropes.--These may be used for a direct pull attached to the drag washers, or a double leverage may be obtained by the use of a wheel purchase.
In attaching dragropes to the drag washers, the back of the hook should be downward, for ease of attaching and because the hook cannot then catch in obstacles such as undergrowth or wire.
In making a wheel purchase, the rings at the ends of the dragrope chains are attached to the hooks on either side of the wheel, as low down as possible on the side away from the direction of the required pull. The dragrope is then laid upon the circumference of the tyre, and the pull must be in line with the wheel. In moving the gun uphill or across heavy ground by wheel purchase, it is often best to move one wheel at a time.


So this would be the official and definitive answer. Remember, hook back facing down for those doing dioramas.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 01:05 AM UTC
Many thanks for solving this one

Al
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