I've been working on a couple of Canadian Army Trophy tanks from the CAT shoot in 1987 in which the US won for the first time. Specifically, I'm working on Bill The Cat and have been blessed by folk here that have sent me some awesome decals.

My Question - The M1s used are identified as M1 IP version... although it's clear that the ones used in CAT 87 retained the same smaller side stowage boxes and side rails of the older M1, and have an added on rear stowage basket.

However - I've read from several publications that some IPs were converted in the depot and incorporated many changes with the exception of an entirely new turret with thicker frontal armor. Whereas, later on, factory fresh IPs had the new thicker turret and side rails were modified to match up with the rear stowage basket.

It appears from photos, that the early IPs used in the CAT shoot look like field converted (side rails don't extend to the rear basket and the frontal armor appears the same thickness as original M1s meaning that these were converted and not factory versions with new turrets.

However - some folks seem to tell me that CAT shoot IPs had the additional turret armor. Apparently this can be gaged by where the frontal armor lines up compared to the mantlet.

Below is a pick of one of the tanks in question - it appears to me that the turret armor looks to be that of an IP without the added turret thickness.

Can anyone definitively tell me if these IPs are field converted or are actually factory IPs with thicker turret armor?



Check this link for a good side view (couldn't get image to show here):
http://www.tankmastergunner.com/images/military/cat87/pages/2%20IPM1%20Green%20CAT%2087%20display_jpg.htm


Also - on a side note - I'm assuming that tank D - 14's barrel stripes were red (four red stripes). I believe that the convention at the time for color of barrel stripes was Red for D company.

Looks to be an IP with the thicker frontal armor. The armor increased the turret length by like 9" IIRC. An easy way to tell is to look at where the front of where the tow cable ends on both an M1 vs. a M1IP and above. It is pretty noticeable.

Ah ha - thanks - good idea using the tow cable as a reference point.

From the CAT tanks there's a definite difference between the distance of the tow cable and the front when compared to the M1A1 - it s clear that at lease the IPs ones used by the specific unit in 1987 had a shorter turret when compared w A1 or A2. From the link in the original post, the tow cable appears to be about the same place as the original M1 so I'm guessing from that might support some earlier info I heard that these were upgraded at the depot level and don't actually have new thicker turrets. Not a true IP by strict standards, but a field upgrade.

I've been know to be wrong on occasion - ask my wife. Anyone else have additional insight?

Looks like a legit M1IP as seen in pic 2 of your link. I was actually referring to the difference between a straight M1 vs. M1IP. The M1A1 added more armor still but I believe that may all have been internal and DU in added in later additions. A link that shows an example side by side is below. Notice also where the driver's periscope is in relation.

http://www.mihalko-family.com/M1.htm

A couple of additional things while I am thinking of it. I never seen an M1IP with the CITV cutout. Indeed very early versions of the M1A1 did not have the cutout either.
A "U" following the serial # on the right side indicates it has the DU package. None of the M1s, M1IPs, or very early M1A1s were armored with it. I mention this only for accuracy if you are doing a custom build.

As for your side note the color represents the Platoon red being 1st, white 2nd and blue being 3rd, four red stripes would indicate fourth tank of 1st PLT, the Platoon SGT

When I got out of the Army the first time in 1988 we were configured under the Division 86 concept. The Platoon Sergeant's tank was the "3" tank. I rejoined in 1994 and the Platoon Sergeant's tank was the "4" tank by that time. Division 86 evidently had gone away. Long story short, I do not know if 3rd AD was using Division 86 standard or the newer one in 1987.

Thanks for all the awesome input. I'll keep you updated on the progress.

Each of us have those particular subjects that we are sevants in. Mine is the older M60... I know the M1 draws lots of people studying it so its a little intimidating to take one in when I've got some catching up to do in the river counting department for this subject, but I'm pushing forward. It's been 20 years since I've bully an Abrams but always wanted to build this particular one.

Wish me luck. The more info the better!

Bruce,
The M! Improved Product was an a M1 hull with a M1A1 turret, mounting a 105mm gun. The IP tanks were the result of the program to transition the M1 production line to the M1A1 tank without stopping the line and ran from late 1984 through 1986, producing almost 900 M1IP tanks, according to the Hunnicutt Abrams Book.

Identification features are:
- the longer M1A1 turret with the small turret boxes, a
- A shorter appearing 105mm gun (the M68 main gun appeared to be shorter between the face of the turret and the bore evacuator
- A modified mantlet for the 105mm gun with a goose necked vice straight lifting point over the gun and a lower GAS aperture (a half moon at the bottom of the mantlet vice a full circular aperture mounted higher on the mantlet
- an M1A1 style reinforced Gunner's Primary Sight cover that lacked the cutouts & overhang that the M1 mantlet had
- The factory installed bustle rack and extended turret rails. M1IPs that were made early in the production run didn't have the extended turret rails as seen by the 4-8 Cav, 3AD Canadian Army Trophy M1IP tanks. Other units that received IPs were the 24th ID at Ft Stewart, the NTC for training unit draw tanks, and maybe 1st Cav & 2nd AD at Ft Hood - perhaps some old Hood tankers can answer this...



When the original M1s that were fielded to Europe were replaced by M1A1s in 1986 and 1987, the M1s had the bustle rack as also added at a depot (either Mainz Germany or Anniston Alabama) and reissued to units in the US, mainly 1st ID at Ft Riley, the 194th Armored Brigade at Ft Knox (DJ Judge, a frequenter here at Armorama, was commanding one of the tank battalions (2-10 Cav) at Knox when they swapped out their M60A3s for M1s in Spring and Summer of 1988) and maybe 2-69 Armor, 197th Infantry Brigade at Ft Benning.

Those upgraded M1s are often called IPs also but they lack the big turret and the other features mentioned above.

So looking at Bill the Cat above, it has the the modified M1A1 Mantlet with the gooseneck but not the M1A1 GPS Cover.
I will see if I have some pics that I can post that show those ID features clearly

Dennis,
I was in two different tank battalions in the early 90's one in Kitzingen with 3 ID and one in Erlangen, a former 1AD battalion that was assigned to 3ID after OPERATION DESERT STORM. The Platoon Sergeant's tanks in Kitzingen was the 4 tank while in Erlangen, the platoon sergeant rode the 3 tank, so my guess is that it was more of a unit specific call, with 1st & 3rd Armored Divisions being different than the Infantry Divisions and the Armored Cavalry Regiments.

FWIW

John

Both M1IPs and original M1s were used during the CAT87.

The photo you posted above shows the 4/8 CAV M1IP tank (winners of the CAT87). But this photo shows the original M1 as used by the 3-64 AR (3rd place at CAT87):

Not sure if on topic but talking about modelling in my opinion the only way to obtain a good IP M1 model is to mix parts from the old Tamiya M1 and the newest Dragon M1A1 AIM.
This due to the different front armour between the two model and some other stuff.

Wheels: Tamiya
Sprocket wheel: Dragon with some change to obtain a M1 wheel deleting the inner transmission cover.
buttom hull: Dragon
upper hull: Tamiya (some lenght and width of Dragon, needs only some work on the rear to adapt to the Dragon bottom hull)
Side skirt: Dragon with some work on attachment to upper hull
Turret: heavly reworked Dragon.
Side bins: Tamiya with side rails
Rear bin: Dragon
Gun: Tamiya.
Gunner "doghouse": Tamiya
Mantlet: Tamiya or reworked Dragon for late production tank.
All other parts from Dragon
Rear wind sensor: Dragon (late vehicle had the T shape unit)

Some time ago I started this conversion to obtain a CAT 87 tank in a very very long term project.
The hardest work is on the turret where you have to sand down the antislip surface (all welds will be redone with Archer products), fill the CITV cutout, erase the rear shell cover (IP usually retained the original three hatches configuration), fill the hole and rebuild hatches.





I really don't know if I will end this project because it is very hard to obtain a smooth surface on the rear but nobody can tell what will happen.

regards,
Pierantonio

it's less work to use the original Tamiya M1 and their M1A2 turret. But hey, what do i know?

Wouldn't it be easier to add 5mm of plastic to the front of the Tamyia turret instead of reworking an M1A1?

Sure, you can do anything, but by doing so you create a new problem in that you have to thicken the mantelet and recreate the details on the mantelet top, sides, and front. Pick your poison in this case.

I used a Tamiya M1A1 turret and with the original M1 hull with some scrapped DML AIM parts thrown in for good measure. No anti-skid to remove, unlike using the Dragon parts. I should probably finish that thing one of these days...

Brian, Don't sell yourself short, you know that three rights make a left. It takes some people many years to realize that!

Bruce, PM inbound. Check your box.

John, what is this 'finish' that you speak of?



It's been in this state since before the Dragon AIM kit came out I'm sad to say; wouldn't take much to finish it up...

Jim

Jim
Finish as to complete a model one has started before becoming distracted and starting a new one. Now I need to take some pics and post them since I need to keep up with the the Carswell. Pics tonight

How is Germany? A bit warmer than Canada this time of the year??

JC

Bruce, the quick short answer directly from those who were actually ON the tanks was no, regular M1 turret short sponsons and add on bustle. I have pics available as well as the old Tank Magazine issues that cover the 87 gunner comp. Cheers.

Ooh that's nice. I have a slick on my to-do list. I planned on doing a partial interior but it slipped down the waitlist when i saw that the AFV Club M60A1 will eventually arrive with a full breech that i can use.

Depends in which units were those "ON the tanks"... Photos clearly show that 4/8 CAV had long turret M1IPs, while 3-64 AR had regular M1s with added turret bustle racks.

Vodnik, I know you are the master when it comes to the M1 and variants, but I am going to respectfully disagree, only because all of the boys from 4/8 CAV, my old unit, insist that they were regular M1IPs, with the standard M1 turret and NOT the modified and bigger M1A1 turret.



This is one of the tracks in our track park with the original M1 bustle and the extension that was added. From the pictures that I have I cannot see the evidence of the bigger turret. If you can show me otherwise I am happy to go back the crews and ask again, but all of them emphatically insist that they were the initial type.

As a side note, we WERE the first unit in Germany to get the new M1A1's and the first to field the M1A1HA, most likely because we were the favorite child of USAREUR at the time. Cheers.

This confirms what I'd been told in the past, even those on the 4/8 CAV. Pics are kind of scarce from the day. It's clear they had the gooseneck lifting fixture on the mantlet, but I've seem those on straight M1s also. Additionally, the definitely didn't have the spacer ring around the base of the barrel at the mantlet.

I was told by the tankers that those with the railings that didn't go back all the way were ones that were retrofitted and had original turrets and the ones with the railings went all they way to bustle were the ones from the factory with the added armor.

I guess with such ambiguity about the issue, I can settle for using the old M1 as the base and reconcile any of my own doubt with it being something of a debate - hell, maybe there was even a mixture within the same unit as far as we know.

With my limited workbench time, I'm going to go with the easiest option I guess.

But I can. The mantlet is clearly the late type with the goose-neck bracket on top and the distance between the edge of the turret and the tow cable fairing is much larger than it was in original XM1/M1 turrets.



The last turret is actually interesting, as it is a short original M1 turret, but the rails on the side are of late "straight at the rear" type.

I have a lot of respect for veterans, but in many cases their memory cannot be trusted in such details, which were not crucial to their job at that time...