Soviet start using dark green during the later stage stage and post-WW-2 for there tank.
was russian dark green same as tamiya dark green? or it need some mixing?
Яusso-Soviэt Forum: Cold War Soviet Armor
For discussions related to cold war era Russo-Soviet armor.
For discussions related to cold war era Russo-Soviet armor.
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Russian green,question
avenue
Joined: May 25, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 01:49 PM UTC
andymacrae
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Posted: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 05:46 PM UTC
165thspc
#521
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Posted: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 09:48 PM UTC
Another question: What is the ultra light almost white green seen on so many aging Cold War vehicles?
Is this just the light camo green after years of fading in the sun???
Is this just the light camo green after years of fading in the sun???
Alystyr
Joined: June 17, 2014
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Posted: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 10:45 PM UTC
Michael-
I've wondered about that myself. I don't think that it's sun fading - it's too uniform, even in the areas that wouldn't get much light.
I believe that it's probably more of an oxidation issue for untreated paint. I remember, "back in the day", that there were a few car colors that would chalk up quite fast if they weren't kept waxed. This odd color reminds me of how they looked.
Like I said, it's just a theory.
EDIT: After giving your photos a second look, I thought of another possibility: It may be a type of protective, primer-type paint. If you look closely at the windshield area, the headlights, and the bumper, it seems that not a lot of care was taken when spraying this paint.
I've wondered about that myself. I don't think that it's sun fading - it's too uniform, even in the areas that wouldn't get much light.
I believe that it's probably more of an oxidation issue for untreated paint. I remember, "back in the day", that there were a few car colors that would chalk up quite fast if they weren't kept waxed. This odd color reminds me of how they looked.
Like I said, it's just a theory.
EDIT: After giving your photos a second look, I thought of another possibility: It may be a type of protective, primer-type paint. If you look closely at the windshield area, the headlights, and the bumper, it seems that not a lot of care was taken when spraying this paint.
trakpin
Joined: November 03, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 04:18 AM UTC
so, what shade of green would this be?: http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/421294-is-3-vs-tiger-2/page__pid__8546262#entry8546262
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 08:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Soviet start using dark green during the later stage stage and post-WW-2 for there tank.
was russian dark green same as tamiya dark green? or it need some mixing?
The Russian color was called 4BO Protective Green, and shades during the war varied considerably, as the government specs stated that it could contain as little as 40% yellow ochre or as much as 60%. The official Soviet color card is said to be close to FS959b color code FS34102, according to modern Russian scholars, though some favor FS34095. Both are available as USAF camouflage colors from Testors Model Master (you can find FS595b color chips online, but bear in mind that every computer monitor will display them a little differently). The Russian paint was unusual in that it reportedly darkened with age rather than faded, due to chemical interactions between the pigments. Colors as dark as FS34052 have been recorded.
juge75
Joined: May 02, 2009
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Posted: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 02:21 PM UTC
Viper_msk
Joined: February 14, 2015
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 07:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
This might help:
http://www.migjimenez.com/img/cms/PDF/Triptico%20colores%20sovieticos_BAJA.pdf
Andy
This PDF is largely MISLEADING.
First of all, there was no such paint named "Alkidno Uretanovaya" - I don't know where MIG guys got this name, but in Russian language these 2 words simply mean "alkyd-urethane" (not sure if I spell it right, though), or in other words, "nitro" - which explains a lot about the nature of the paint, but says absolutely nothing about the color.
Second, they make a an assumption that 4BO was used only in 1941 - 1945. This is plain wrong. 4BO was formally made a standard in 1939, and was developed as early as in 1935.
Yes, Protective Green (more widely knows under its formal name - ZB AU) paint was quite widely used in 1925-1939, but it was never as light and "grassy" as MIG guys show it.
It was indeed pretty close in hue to 4BO (ZB AU contained per 100 parts of linseed oil 71.25 parts of "white lead" pigment, 47.5 of zinc white, 33 of golden ochre, 7 parts of burnt umber, 4.75 of graphite and 2.4 parts of ultramarine).
Thus, if you're painting any pre-war Soviet vehicle, 4BO would be your best and, in general, most accurate choice, except for the late 1920's vehicles.
Third, they don't even mention a word about FOUR (!) different standard camouflage schemes that were implemented in the Army in 1939.
I could go on and on, but these 3 points already proved wrong the entire "research" done by MIG guys...
DaGreatQueeg
Joined: August 01, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 10:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
...... Third, they don't even mention a word about FOUR (!) different standard camouflage schemes that were implemented in the Army in 1939.
I could go on and on, but these 3 points already proved wrong the entire "research" done by MIG guys...
I'd be interested to hear more on Soviet colours, especially the camouflage Phil .... as I'm sure other would too.
Brent
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 10:59 PM UTC
Welcome to the forum, Phil. It certainly appears as if you speak from some position of authority.
As for the MiG team, who knows. Another threads cast doubts on some sort of OD green, but that doesn't interest me as much as Soviet colors does.
As for the MiG team, who knows. Another threads cast doubts on some sort of OD green, but that doesn't interest me as much as Soviet colors does.
Viper_msk
Joined: February 14, 2015
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 11:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'd be interested to hear more on Soviet colours, especially the camouflage Phil .... as I'm sure other would too.
With pleasure
To cut the long story short, in August of 1939 the Army tested and accepted as its standard camo schemes for 4 different groups of VO ("voennyi okrug" in Russian or "military district" in word-by-word translation into English) - based on the climate and flora types.
All camouflage schemes were "large-spot" schemes as it was proved during the tests that smaller camo patterns were not significantly better, but were way more difficult to paint.
Only small tanks (T-37, T-38 etc.) had the option to be painted in "just" 4BO with a "rash" of small spots of other camo colors.
Group 1 - in general this was European Russia + Urals + Siberia (roughly, usual terrain - forests, grass fields, etc.)
Camo for this group was 4 colors: 4BO, dark brown (6K), light sand and yellow-brown (7K).
4BO had to be over 50% of the vehicle, others - 15-25% each.
Group 2 - Kiev, Kharkov & Volga districts (roughly, steppes)
This group got its camo in 2 colors: olive green (formally "green with a sea-green / aquamarine tint") & yellow-brown
Group 3 - Central Asian districts (roughly, deserts)
Colors: brown and light sand
Group 4 - Far East
Colors: Protective Green and Dark Brown
The precise list of VOs is too long and too bulky for me to post it here, but it is available - so that if there's a question about a particular vehicle or location, its affiliation to a particular VO can be quickly identified.
Another important aspect is that, despite the acceptance of the new standard, by the beginning of war (June 22, 1941) not all of the vehicles were painted according to it - so, painting vehicles in just 4BO is also historically correct (as most of the vehicle left production lines painted in 4BO only - as they were supposed to be re-painted according to the new standard only when arrived into their service units).
This T-26 is painted in Group 3 camo (brown and light sand)
Belt_Fed
Joined: February 02, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 11:47 PM UTC
I personally am a fan of Vallejo Model Air Russian Green. It, to me, looks the way a Russian Green should.
Viper_msk
Joined: February 14, 2015
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Posted: Saturday, February 14, 2015 - 11:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Welcome to the forum, Phil. It certainly appears as if you speak from some position of authority.
As for the MiG team, who knows. Another threads cast doubts on some sort of OD green, but that doesn't interest me as much as Soviet colors does.
Thanks, Robert. I am glad to be here. I have indeed invested a lot of time into studying not only my country's military history in general, but also history and specifics of pre-war AFVs in particular - as this is the main area of my modeling interest.
I also have a luxury of being able to visit the famous Kubinka tank museum (which is only 25 miles away from Moscow) quite often
- thus being able to see lots of unique vehicles in reality (in addition to photos, books, etc.).Viper_msk
Joined: February 14, 2015
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Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 12:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I personally am a fan of Vallejo Model Air Russian Green. It, to me, looks the way a Russian Green should.
If you mean Vallejo's 71.017 - it is indeed quite close, but a bit too "greenish" ("emeraldy") to my taste.
MIG got it quite well with their 4BO color, so did Akan (local Russian model paint manufacturer).
Another good recipe of what is a nearly perfect 4BO is a 50/50 mix of Tamiya's XF-49 (Khaki) and XF-58 (Olive Green).
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 01:41 AM UTC
While we're on it, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on 80's Soviet green. Based on parts from tanks and armored vehicles I actually brought home, here are my own thoughts:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/165161
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/165161
MassimoTessitori
Joined: March 14, 2013
KitMaker: 278 posts
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Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 03:28 PM UTC
Hi Viper, hi all,
I'm interested to know more about the dark greysh green that seems standard in the most recent Russian vehicles, as those that can be seen on this link:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234958911-russian-modern-armour-images/page-2
Regards
Massimo
I'm interested to know more about the dark greysh green that seems standard in the most recent Russian vehicles, as those that can be seen on this link:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234958911-russian-modern-armour-images/page-2
Regards
Massimo
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 07:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI personally am a fan of Vallejo Model Air Russian Green. It, to me, looks the way a Russian Green should.
If you mean Vallejo's 71.017 - it is indeed quite close, but a bit too "greenish" ("emeraldy") to my taste.
MIG got it quite well with their 4BO color, so did Akan (local Russian model paint manufacturer).
Another good recipe of what is a nearly perfect 4BO is a 50/50 mix of Tamiya's XF-49 (Khaki) and XF-58 (Olive Green).
HI! Thanks Very Much Phil, for all of your clarification! We should all bear in mind though, that paint technology of the 1930s-'40s was nothing like the advanced formulas that are used today. That means, that NO MATTER how accurate your paint mix is, you're going to have to allow for fading, or in the case of the Russian paints, darkening of the pigments. Paint oxidation started almost IMMEDIATELY upon leaving the factories, no matter if the vehicles were Russian, German, American, British, or whatever.
Phil, is it safe to assume that your TAMIYA mix of 50/50 XF-49 (KHAKI) and XF-58 (OLIVE GREEN) would represent the BASE COLOR of a "Brand-New" Soviet vehicle?
I model mostly WWII, Post-War, and Modern US vehicles. For my WWII US OLIVE DRAB, I like to use a slightly darkened mix of MODEL MASTER II Enamel 1787 GREEN DRAB FS34086 as my BASE COLOR. I like to modulate my WWII OD by adding either a touch of MM II Luftwaffe RLM-79 SANDGELB, or MM II Panzer DUNKELGELB, taking care not to go overboard in contrast. According to period US Army Specs, US "OLIVE DRAB" was to be mixed by using YELLOW OCHRE and BLACK, which was supposed to be "roughly equivalent" to "PULLMAN GREEN"...
Let me also say at this point that I don't go crazy with my weathering by adding 10 tons of "scale mud", either. A dark pin-wash around bolts and in the various recesses and gratings, a little bit of accumulated road dirt on the lower hull, suspension and wheels, an almost perceptible, highly-thinned over-spray of dust, followed by some very light dry-brushing to pop out the details. I always enhance my stuff by using weathering powders, especially dark colors in shadow areas and recesses. I'll seal everything with TESTORS 1960 Lusterless CLEAR, and that's about it. I'm sure that everyone can gather that I like to display my models in a relatively "new" condition, but not pristine, as it were.
I follow virtually the same routine with my WWII Soviet vehicles. I mixed up a small batch of your TAMIYA mix for comparison, to which I then matched by experimenting with various MODEL MASTER II Enamels. I found that this new mix compared favorably to what I had been using to paint my WWII Soviet vehicles' BASE COLOR. So, at least we're working along the same line, color-wise, except in my preference for enamels. I like the enamels because, for me at least, they seem to flow nicer, and I can make some really nice camo patterns by lowering my paint/air flow. I'll mix my own "filters" to varying effects. This works great in achieving those "mottled" camo patterns on my WWII 1/48 Luftwaffe aircraft...
Viper_msk
Joined: February 14, 2015
KitMaker: 53 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 01:32 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Viper, hi all,
I'm interested to know more about the dark greysh green that seems standard in the most recent Russian vehicles, as those that can be seen on this link:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234958911-russian-modern-armour-images/page-2
Regards
Massimo
Hi Massimo,
I tried to open that page several times - no success ("page not found").
Viper_msk
Joined: February 14, 2015
KitMaker: 53 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 01:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
While we're on it, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on 80's Soviet green. Based on parts from tanks and armored vehicles I actually brought home, here are my own thoughts:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/165161
Frankly, I've studied the 80's color much less than pre-war colors (as my focus was always pre-war AFVs), but my current understanding is that in the 60s the Army slowly transitioned from using 4BO as the mainstream color to HB-518 (some refer to it as XB-518), which to my perception is a bit "greener" than 4BO. Looking at that initial MIG's PDF it is much closer to spoon #2 from the left (which is called Protective Green by the Mig guys) than to what they refer to as XB-518.
At the three which you mentioned (the link that you provided) above, ON MY SCREEN your 2nd picture (zoomed view of that bent panel) is a quite accurate hue of green that HB-518 should be. Another good view of that color can be found here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Isu152_Kubinka.jpg/1920px-Isu152_Kubinka.jpg - on that narrow horizontal highlighted area right above the 4 spare tracks.
As for the camo patterns and standards of the modern and 80's USSR AFVs , I haven't done much of a study - so, am definitely not an expert.
Viper_msk
Joined: February 14, 2015
KitMaker: 53 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 02:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Phil, is it safe to assume that your TAMIYA mix of 50/50 XF-49 (KHAKI) and XF-58 (OLIVE GREEN) would represent the BASE COLOR of a "Brand-New" Soviet vehicle?
Absolutely. This is the fresh paint "right out of the can". By the way, just looked at the Akan web site - they provide the results of spectrometry of 4BO - in case you would like to replicate the color on a calibrated monitor in Photoshop or another similar software (http://akan.ru/articles/item/24-4-бо-наше-всё.html):
sRGB: 89, 83, 54 L* a*b*: 35.6 / -4.2 / 18.3
As for the darkening of surfaces painted with 4BO - I am not quite sure that this is what happened.
First, let's review the contents of 4BO's "classic recipe" ("by-the-book") - it contained only (!) 3 pigments:
1. Green chrome oxide.
2. Ochre "Zhuravskaya (looks pretty much like this: http://www.hobbyforyou.ru/catalog/773-55226.html) - a VERY stable goldish-light-yellow mineral pigment, which was tested for fading mixed into an oil paint and did not show any significant fade in 15 years.
3. Orange "cron" (Google suggest "orange crown") - another lead-based orange pigment, also very stable to fading, sun, heat, etc.
Also, as we all know from the basic chemistry course (from high school), chrome oxides get just A LITTLE lighter when they fade.
So, we have 2 VERY stable pigments and one that gets a bit lighter over time.
As for thinning 4BO - it was meant to be thinned by linseed oil (yes, it gets a bit darker over time), or, as a huge exception, by turpentine or benzin. The use of latter 2 resulted in much thinner and weaker matt layer of paint and was NOT recommended generally.
Thus, I don't see why 4BO should get significantly darker when faded. In my understanding it should become more "amber" (adding that yellow-orange tone from darker linseed oil and ochre pigments that remained stable) and a bit lighter - overall more into lighter khaki tones with a visible amber hue.
But I will be happy to be proven wrong, as usual
MassimoTessitori
Joined: March 14, 2013
KitMaker: 278 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 02:47 PM UTC
Hi,
I'm trying again to write the link.
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234958911-russian-modern-armour-images/
If this functions, many examples of the uniform dark green I mean can be found forthemost on the second page.
Regards
Massimo
I'm trying again to write the link.
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234958911-russian-modern-armour-images/
If this functions, many examples of the uniform dark green I mean can be found forthemost on the second page.
Regards
Massimo
lentorpe
Joined: August 12, 2010
KitMaker: 104 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 04:26 PM UTC
(To Michael Koenig)
That bright blueish green looks like the colour the Soviets used for the canopies of many of their jet planes, like the MiG-21. It is probably some kind of industrial imprimation. I had never before seen any military ground vehicle in that colour, although I remember to have seen a model of a Scud launcher with the insides painted like that. And also some civilian vehicles from the 50's to 70's here in the West, mainly delivery vans and scooters (small motorbikes)
If Soviet camo green does really fade like that, then I guess the chemist who made the formulation was sent to the Gulag in Siberia.
That bright blueish green looks like the colour the Soviets used for the canopies of many of their jet planes, like the MiG-21. It is probably some kind of industrial imprimation. I had never before seen any military ground vehicle in that colour, although I remember to have seen a model of a Scud launcher with the insides painted like that. And also some civilian vehicles from the 50's to 70's here in the West, mainly delivery vans and scooters (small motorbikes)
If Soviet camo green does really fade like that, then I guess the chemist who made the formulation was sent to the Gulag in Siberia.
Armored76
Joined: September 30, 2013
KitMaker: 1,615 posts
Armorama: 1,500 posts
Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 05:49 PM UTC
Thanks for all the insight, Phil! I think the information that you shared in this thread would be ideal for a pined topic or a feature article...
Thudius
Joined: October 22, 2012
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
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Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 06:44 PM UTC
Quoted Text
MIG got it quite well with their 4BO color
So you're saying that the new Ammo mini set from MIG is a pretty good match? I did a quick review of the set and looking at my sample, the green looks much lighter, more like 24 ng on the AKAN link. Bear in mind the photos in the review are a little over exposed, but not by much. I'm actually trying to do a mix from Vallejos at the moment because I don't really like the way the MIG paint brushes on. It will do the job eventually, but it just doesn't brush on or cover as nicely and as easily as Vallejos in my opinion.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/10858
Kimmo
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, February 16, 2015 - 07:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextPhil, is it safe to assume that your TAMIYA mix of 50/50 XF-49 (KHAKI) and XF-58 (OLIVE GREEN) would represent the BASE COLOR of a "Brand-New" Soviet vehicle?
Absolutely. This is the fresh paint "right out of the can". By the way, just looked at the Akan web site - they provide the results of spectrometry of 4BO - in case you would like to replicate the color on a calibrated monitor in Photoshop or another similar software (http://akan.ru/articles/item/24-4-бо-наше-всё.html):
sRGB: 89, 83, 54 L* a*b*: 35.6 / -4.2 / 18.3
As for the darkening of surfaces painted with 4BO - I am not quite sure that this is what happened.
First, let's review the contents of 4BO's "classic recipe" ("by-the-book") - it contained only (!) 3 pigments:
1. Green chrome oxide.
2. Ochre "Zhuravskaya (looks pretty much like this: http://www.hobbyforyou.ru/catalog/773-55226.html) - a VERY stable goldish-light-yellow mineral pigment, which was tested for fading mixed into an oil paint and did not show any significant fade in 15 years.
3. Orange "cron" (Google suggest "orange crown") - another lead-based orange pigment, also very stable to fading, sun, heat, etc.
Also, as we all know from the basic chemistry course (from high school), chrome oxides get just A LITTLE lighter when they fade.
So, we have 2 VERY stable pigments and one that gets a bit lighter over time.
As for thinning 4BO - it was meant to be thinned by linseed oil (yes, it gets a bit darker over time), or, as a huge exception, by turpentine or benzin. The use of latter 2 resulted in much thinner and weaker matt layer of paint and was NOT recommended generally.
Thus, I don't see why 4BO should get significantly darker when faded. In my understanding it should become more "amber" (adding that yellow-orange tone from darker linseed oil and ochre pigments that remained stable) and a bit lighter - overall more into lighter khaki tones with a visible amber hue.
But I will be happy to be proven wrong, as usual
Hi, Phil! Earlier in this thread, I read where someone had stated that 4BO GREEN darkened with age. In my opinion, I'm a little bit skeptical about any "flat" paint DARKENING with age. In my own experience, I've seen many paints,"flat" or otherwise, fading into a LIGHTER shade as time passes. This seems to be the case with just about any paint up to the advent of "new-technology" acrylics and urethanes...
The only examples of darkening I've ever seen, is when a dry flat-painted surface becomes wet, as with rain water, washing, driving through puddles or when coming into contact with fuel, oil, or grease.
I remember reading in some of my books that during WWII, US tankers would use old rags soaked in waste oil to wipe down and swab the bores of their tank's main gun barrels. This waste oil had been drained out of their tanks' engine oil sumps during regular general maintenance and oil changes.
I've seen quite a few photos of US tanks with SEMI-FLAT or almost shiny main gun barrels, with the rest of the tanks' surfaces being dull, flat and/or dirty.
My favorite Russian tanks are the "early" T-34/76 types, 1940-1942... I understand that ICM will be releasing a couple of T-34/76 1943 (Early and Late). I wonder if ICM has plans to also release the earlier 1940-1942 T-34/76 types, and also the later T-34/85 tanks? Has anyone heard anything?
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