Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
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Accurate Armour & DML Black Box Saladin.
DriftwoodDan
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Posted: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 09:12 PM UTC
Hi, long time reader but first time to reply. I have compared the Dragon Saladin kit to the drawings in the very old Profile #27 on the Saladin. The drawings are not credited as to their origins. I enlarge the left side view drawing to match the axle spacing on the kit and then overlaid the kit tires on the drawing. They were very close to the same size. Front to rear dimensions on the drawing were very close to the kit. I find the kit to be pretty basic but workable to bring up to standards that will be okay for me. I appreciate all of the help on this site from people who know so much about armor that I do.
Biggles2
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Posted: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 09:56 PM UTC
OK, so at least the tires are of a reasonable size, but shouldn't they have raised writing on them such as brand, Firestone...Goodyear, etc., and pressure and wheel size info?
majjanelson
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Posted: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 - 10:06 PM UTC
Keith,

Thank you for doing the comparison.

If nothing else, this will show modelers what they will need to do to the DML offering to improve the kit to at least the detail level of the AA Saladin. And possibly get some really interesting info concerning a REAL Saladin along the way, too.

Keef1648
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 06:48 PM UTC
I spent a couple more hours yesterday sorting out the remaining suspension parts and assembling the wheels and drive shafts (left me with a very cold feeling)...

The upper and lower suspension parts are now in place and the steering arms and torsion bar dampers also in situ.


I would suggest you install parts B5 (tie down loops, six per side) now or before this point.

At this juncture I still haven't glued any of the suspension upper and lower arms because I want to be certain the wheels will all sit level. The steering arm connectors (front to center wheel stations) now in place as well.


Here you can see the rear side of the outer wheel rims, rear of the tire (tyre) and rim (one piece) and the drive shafts. The cone shape on the shaft is supposed to represent the rubber sealing boot (yes I thought it was very poorly (pathetic) done.)

Note all the pips (plugs) that have to be removed. They are attached to the outer rim (lip) of the wheel rims (smaller of the two circular sets), so be careful.


With care I have put the wheels on so I can check the sit. No issues here. The hole in the outer rim required for inserting the brake adjusting tool is missing.

The drive shafts are so much smaller that the receiving hole so everything is really wobbly and lining things up with the correct toe in/out and vertical cant won't be an issue.


The sidewall 'bulge' of the tires (above picture) due in the main part to the solid rubber runflat insert, is not represented in the kit.


*NOTE for you judges* ......

The Saladin and Saracen wheels do NOT have the same angles... Due to one having the engine in the front and one in the rear and the weights being quite different! (turret plus ammo).

The Saladin wheels when looked at from front to rear or rear to front, lean outwards at the top. Each wheel station (FRONT TO REAR) is different and has a little less lean...... They should NOT be perfectly vertical.... Especially if you model yours with turned wheels.

I will take the wheels off now, glue the suspension together and proceed with the build. The wheels and final steering arms attached after painting.

The picture below was taken by my gunner (I was driving).
'C' Squadron The Life Guards was deploying to cover the Hong Kong, Chinese border, up in the New Territories during the troubled times of 1967.


The saladin ahead of us was commanded by Lt. Andrew Imbert Terry and his gunner/op was Tpr. Theobald and his driver, Tpr. Dearden...

Great days and memories of yesteryear.


Keith.
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 08:38 PM UTC
What uniform are you wearing at the time?
Keef1648
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 08:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What uniform are you wearing at the time?



Quite the combination was seen Biggles. We left Malaysia with high temps and humidity and arrived in Hong Kong with light snow flurries.

We wore our lightweight jungle Green trousers and shirts supplimented by civilan sweaters and gloves (purchased at the shop in the camp) under Green combat jackets until we were able to unpack our bags and suitcases which contained heavier combat clothing, also Green...

Camo combats were not in service at this time.


Keith.
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 11:53 PM UTC
I'm considering putting a commander figure in the hatch. Was the (post-war version) woolen battle dress uniform still in service at this time? Maybe in Britain or Europe?
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 12:09 AM UTC
I Googled this pic and it pretty well answers my question. Caption dates it circa 1960. Although these are Medical Corps, the Battle Dress must still have been in general use.
http://www.1900s.org.uk/1960s-images/training-finish-web.jpg
BootsDMS
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 01:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm considering putting a commander figure in the hatch. Was the (post-war version) woolen battle dress uniform still in service at this time? Maybe in Britain or Europe?



Whilst 1949 Pattern Battle Dress was in use up until (I think) around 1967, it is extremely unlikely to have been worn by Saladin Crews - save for parades etc.

They would more likely have worn the green pattern Combat Dress or AFV Crew coveralls - or indeed a combination of both ie Combat Smock over Coveralls.

Sadly decent figures suitable for this are few and far between but the venerable Tamiya Stretcher party set - with no small work - could be suitable. You might consider the Firing Line figures (Google DJ Parkin)and utilise these as they're designed for Saladin and Ferret Scout Cars; in both cases I would recommend replacing the heads with either Ultracast or Hornet Heads. Certainly figures should be portrayed with radio headsets with say, fuse wire for cabling, but I'm sure I'm teaching people to suck eggs here. The Firing Line figures are quite reasonably priced and although I've highlighted them for use in Armoured Cars they're also useful for populating Centurions and Conquerors - and even Chieftains come to that.

I must just add a rider that I was never an armoured corps soldier so I'm sure that those who served during Saladin's time will add further information as they see fit, however, I hope this helps.
SdAufKla
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 02:47 AM UTC
Another very informative update, Keith!

Thanks for taking the time to document the work in such detail.
SgtRam
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AEROSCALE
#197
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 03:01 AM UTC
The more I see of this kit the more tempted I am in it. And Chris Meddings showed a little tease on Facebook with a partial shot of a PE update set he is working on for the Saladin.

Keef1648
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 04:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm considering putting a commander figure in the hatch. Was the (post-war version) woolen battle dress uniform still in service at this time? Maybe in Britain or Europe?



Whilst 1949 Pattern Battle Dress was in use up until (I think) around 1967, it is extremely unlikely to have been worn by Saladin Crews - save for parades etc.

They would more likely have worn the green pattern Combat Dress or AFV Crew coveralls - or indeed a combination of both ie Combat Smock over Coveralls.

Sadly decent figures suitable for this are few and far between but the venerable Tamiya Stretcher party set - with no small work - could be suitable. You might consider the Firing Line figures (Google DJ Parkin)and utilise these as they're designed for Saladin and Ferret Scout Cars; in both cases I would recommend replacing the heads with either Ultracast or Hornet Heads. Certainly figures should be portrayed with radio headsets with say, fuse wire for cabling, but I'm sure I'm teaching people to suck eggs here. The Firing Line figures are quite reasonably priced and although I've highlighted them for use in Armoured Cars they're also useful for populating Centurions and Conquerors - and even Chieftains come to that.

I must just add a rider that I was never an armoured corps soldier so I'm sure that those who served during Saladin's time will add further information as they see fit, however, I hope this helps.



In the far east, Borneo and Malaysia, working dress of the day was, Beret, no shirt, Green shorts with 44 pattern webbing belt, DMS boots with socks rolled (turned) down. The older style one piece cotton denims (coveralls) were still issued and being replaced by the highly disliked Nylon blend press stud version. These were only used in colder months in the vehicle park and yes in Hong Kong under the Green combat jackets.

The same dress was found in Sharja and Aden in the same time period but of course the uniform was the appropriate color for the area and climate.

In europe the battle dress had been replaced by the Green combat uniform and boots DMS. along with 58 pattern webbing. In cold weather the 'Pixie' tank suits were still around and at least three different shades of Tan were common. Working dress was the one piece coveralls.... On the training area some units wore the one piece denims but for major exercises Combats was the norm.

Battle dress had dissapeared and religated to some (very few) Junior Leader, Junior Guardsmen and cadet units.


Keith.
Keef1648
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 04:36 PM UTC
Remember to 'fill in' the rear of the drum shaped muffer box.
most crews would drop a couple of cans of soup or rations (Compo) between it and the fender and heat them on the move. It was prudent not to leave them too long, lest they explode (Trust me, it happened).


The center walkway section is attached (bolted underneath) to the escape/exit hatch and rests on a lip of the front and rear sections.
.

More later.


Keith.
vettejack
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 04:49 PM UTC
I'm getting the feeling that this post is leaning towards the AA kit as the way to go...accuracy, detail, ease of workmanship, etc., vs. the Dragon kit, which from my reading dictates accuracy that is somewhat lacking or completely missing altogether.

This could be a game changer for me when purchasing this vehicle. The last thing I want is a 2015 version of the 1970's Tamiya Saladin, and that seems to be indicated here. Tell me I'm wrong!!

I can afford the AA version, but at the same time I don't want to have to spend money un-necessarily to get accuracy.

It also appears the well meaning, and welcomed, kit reviews concerning this kit seems to be purposely, or conspicuously, missing from the Dragon kit review section of Armorama. But then again...when more than one 'review' shows up in the forum on one particular vehicle such as the Saladin, it gives a 'third eye' opinion rather than a singular view of a kit, which I prefer.

I'd rather have the advice/opinions/suggestions/preference of dozens, if not hundreds, than the view of just one person. As the saying goes..."there is no 'I' in team"...and that just might work here for this kit.
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 07:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The last thing I want is a 2015 version of the 1970's Tamiya Saladin, and that seems to be indicated here. Tell me I'm wrong!!



Well, at least it doesn't have metal rod axles!
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 07:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Whilst 1949 Pattern Battle Dress was in use up until (I think) around 1967, it is extremely unlikely to have been worn by Saladin Crews - save for parades etc.


Parade dress is good enough for me. I just want to stick a figure in the commander's hatch, preferably from stock I already have (Ultra Cast WWll). In the seventies I was in reserves (Black Watch) and we still wore Battle Dress and kilt on parade.
pespada
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 08:23 PM UTC
Wow--I don't think I've ever been on a thread in which the participants had had such an intimate involvement with the vehicle being modeled. Great information about the Saladin--thanks.
DriftwoodDan
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2015 - 11:53 PM UTC
Many thanks to all who contribute here. Although I have never seen the Accurate Armour kit, I am not surprised that it is much nicer than the Dragon Kit. I have seen, and built, the Tamiya kit and I can say the Dragon is so much better than it every was. Only two things I can add here, the brake adjusting hole in the wheel ( and I did not even know what that hole was for till I read it here) is on the wheel but is represented by a raised disk. I can be drilled out. For those interested in Saladins in Malaysia see:

https://plus.google.com/photos/115599270779959726365/albums/5812845204873604337/5812845578225002770?banner=pwa&pid=5812845578225002770&oid=115599270779959726365

Hopefully I did not mess something up with that but it really has some great pics!!
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 01:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Many thanks to all who contribute here. Although I have never seen the Accurate Armour kit, I am not surprised that it is much nicer than the Dragon Kit. I have seen, and built, the Tamiya kit and I can say the Dragon is so much better than it every was. Only two things I can add here, the brake adjusting hole in the wheel ( and I did not even know what that hole was for till I read it here) is on the wheel but is represented by a raised disk. I can be drilled out. For those interested in Saladins in Malaysia see:

https://plus.google.com/photos/115599270779959726365/albums/5812845204873604337/5812845578225002770?banner=pwa&pid=5812845578225002770&oid=115599270779959726365

Hopefully I did not mess something up with that but it really has some great pics!!



Thanks for Sharing these. I am perplexed by the photos of the M113 C&R /Lynx in British service . I am wondering if it was a trial vehicle (Pics 15 & 88); You learn something new eavery day.

Al
Keef1648
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 04:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm getting the feeling that this post is leaning towards the AA kit as the way to go...accuracy, detail, ease of workmanship, etc., vs. the Dragon kit, which from my reading dictates accuracy that is somewhat lacking or completely missing altogether.

This could be a game changer for me when purchasing this vehicle. The last thing I want is a 2015 version of the 1970's Tamiya Saladin, and that seems to be indicated here. Tell me I'm wrong!!

I can afford the AA version, but at the same time I don't want to have to spend money un-necessarily to get accuracy.

It also appears the well meaning, and welcomed, kit reviews concerning this kit seems to be purposely, or conspicuously, missing from the Dragon kit review section of Armorama. But then again...when more than one 'review' shows up in the forum on one particular vehicle such as the Saladin, it gives a 'third eye' opinion rather than a singular view of a kit, which I prefer.

I'd rather have the advice/opinions/suggestions/preference of dozens, if not hundreds, than the view of just one person. As the saying goes..."there is no 'I' in team"...and that just might work here for this kit.



John, I have three Saladin kits, both of the AA kits, with and without interior and this one from DML (Black Box) so I don't want to tell you or anyone else which one I prefer or what another should purchase. I am trying to build this item with the intent of sharing my 'personal' feeling about the kit contents, fit and finish.

Yes of course it will look like a Saladin and anything is better that the old Tamiya kit. Some of the dissapointments I am feeling are with the for's and against that are apparent and blatently (sp) obvious. Such as, nice weld seams around the barrel guide where they meet the mantlet but no back to the exhaust muffler? They provide the commanders spotlight and right angled adjustable mounting but no commanders MG or mounting? They point out 'no glue' for the hatch torsion bars so they can be opened but why? there is no detail on the inside nor surrounding the openings?

In the end the choice is the individuals to make, if I have helped in anyway with the decision without upsetting anyone then that works for me.

It may however be that when I am finished with this simple build It will be my last posting here as I don't like the undercurrent and personal sniping that I am currently reading elsewhere!

Have a great evening.


Keith.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 12:20 PM UTC
Thanks for this build log Keith, it is always good to see what can be done with a kit most write off and to get first hand knowledge of the subject. I was extremely angry with what I got for my money but may just have a go at correcting the small faults on this one. Will be sorry to see you go.
Al
TankSGT
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 03:44 PM UTC
Dan don't let the trolls get you down, most of the guys are are really decent. I have enjoyed your input on the Saladin and it will really help me on my build, Thanks. I bought the Dragon kit and think it will build up alright with a bit of work. I am not dissatisfied at all.

Tom
vettejack
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 04:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm getting the feeling that this post is leaning towards the AA kit as the way to go...accuracy, detail, ease of workmanship, etc., vs. the Dragon kit, which from my reading dictates accuracy that is somewhat lacking or completely missing altogether.

This could be a game changer for me when purchasing this vehicle. The last thing I want is a 2015 version of the 1970's Tamiya Saladin, and that seems to be indicated here. Tell me I'm wrong!!

I can afford the AA version, but at the same time I don't want to have to spend money un-necessarily to get accuracy.

It also appears the well meaning, and welcomed, kit reviews concerning this kit seems to be purposely, or conspicuously, missing from the Dragon kit review section of Armorama. But then again...when more than one 'review' shows up in the forum on one particular vehicle such as the Saladin, it gives a 'third eye' opinion rather than a singular view of a kit, which I prefer.

I'd rather have the advice/opinions/suggestions/preference of dozens, if not hundreds, than the view of just one person. As the saying goes..."there is no 'I' in team"...and that just might work here for this kit.



John, I have three Saladin kits, both of the AA kits, with and without interior and this one from DML (Black Box) so I don't want to tell you or anyone else which one I prefer or what another should purchase. I am trying to build this item with the intent of sharing my 'personal' feeling about the kit contents, fit and finish.

Yes of course it will look like a Saladin and anything is better that the old Tamiya kit. Some of the dissapointments I am feeling are with the for's and against that are apparent and blatently (sp) obvious. Such as, nice weld seams around the barrel guide where they meet the mantlet but no back to the exhaust muffler? They provide the commanders spotlight and right angled adjustable mounting but no commanders MG or mounting? They point out 'no glue' for the hatch torsion bars so they can be opened but why? there is no detail on the inside nor surrounding the openings?

In the end the choice is the individuals to make, if I have helped in anyway with the decision without upsetting anyone then that works for me.

It may however be that when I am finished with this simple build It will be my last posting here as I don't like the undercurrent and personal sniping that I am currently reading elsewhere!

Have a great evening.


Keith.



Your personal insight to the Saladin is a treat to read. And based on that alone, and your description of your experience with the real vehicle, who would not be influenced in what kit to purchase? It's not a bad thing mind you, it's just a natural process with all the information flow about the Saladin written here that draws you to the AA example...call it unintended consequences. A very nice consequence!

Now the choices: do I want the ease of putting together the Dragon kit...knowing there are corrections that could/should be made? Will I spend more in the AM arena to correct the Dragon kit? Will those cost pretty much equal out to the point that I should have bought the AA kit and have it fit right out of the box??

That's why I love reviews this in depth! This thread alone will probably start a new trend of reviewing...actual use of the vehicle by people who build models! But, it will probably only be recent and/or modern armor (our WW2 brethren are almost gone)...so even then we're somewhat limited to how involved a review can be. Either way, it will prove beneficial to all of us that a review like this one can be!

Thanks for your service as well!
mvaiano
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 04:23 PM UTC
Keith is the second guy, in two days, who said he won't post here in Armorama anymore.

There is something wrong around here. Where are our moderators?

I know Jim said we are all grown men, but if we have moderators, we need that they work and get some position about it.

Just my two cents.

Marco

Keef1648
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2015 - 05:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

OK, so at least the tires are of a reasonable size, but shouldn't they have raised writing on them such as brand, Firestone...Goodyear, etc., and pressure and wheel size info?



Biggles, back then nothing was written (cast) on the rubber tires (tyres) and the pressures were 'hand painted' on the edge of the walkway above the wheel station by the crews but only for parades and or inspections or at the insistance of the troop/squadron higharchy.

The majority of regiments also painted the wheel rim nut and bolt heads Red and the wheel nuts White. It was a 'split'two piece rim (back and front) and a dangerous situation could be encountered if the wrong ones were removed by mistake when removing the wheels ... Not possible? Oh yes it did happen.

When changing tires some crews would leave some air in the tire and carefully undo the rim nuts in order to help break the seal and once it cracked apart the remaining air was released. We didn't have access to any sort of fancy tire changing equipment, everything was manual (man power), using tire irons and sledge hammers....


Keith.