Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Dragon: 1/35 T54E1 - Smart Kit "Black Label"
Vodnik
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 05:32 PM UTC

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I have the M48A3 and I haven't looked at it closely but I believe that kit is OK?


It's not perfect (e.g. road wheels could certainly be better), but generally pretty good.
Vodnik
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 05:36 PM UTC

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What about those sketches? Are you not allowed to share them?


No, I'm not. But maybe the author could - he visits Armorama from time to time (and his name was already mentioned in this thread)
ChrisDM
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 06:02 PM UTC
compared to the conqueror its a work of art
WildBill1941
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 06:44 PM UTC
Who is the targeted customer of Black Label kits? This is a good question. Considering Italeri WOT series the answer is clear> gamers. But Black label kits having is 2-3 times higher price than Italeri kits. I would say for gamers BL kits are too expensive, for modelers they are just toys.
Additionally I am not so sure Dragon making any money on these kits, there are rumors about Dragon Model division financial difficulties.
I heard a story that Dragon did not have the money ordering all the extras from 3rd parties, for the re-released Tigers. All these re-release now missing PE, barrel etc at an increased price point.
I hope these are just rumors, and Dragon is working hard improving they new kits.
W`ll see
Darkonar
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 07:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Who is the targeted customer of Black Label kits? This is a good question. Considering Italeri WOT series the answer is clear> gamers. But Black label kits having is 2-3 times higher price than Italeri kits. I would say for gamers BL kits are too expensive, for modelers they are just toys.
Additionally I am not so sure Dragon making any money on these kits, there are rumors about Dragon Model division financial difficulties.
I heard a story that Dragon did not have the money ordering all the extras from 3rd parties, for the re-released Tigers. All these re-release now missing PE, barrel etc at an increased price point.
I hope these are just rumors, and Dragon is working hard improving they new kits.
W`ll see



Who knows.. Maybe it implies more money goes to Disney toys development and production in detriment of the scale model department? Their Facebook page certainly looks more like a toy shop page than a scale model producer's.
SgtRam
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AEROSCALE
#197
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 08:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Who knows.. Maybe it implies more money goes to Disney toys development and production in detriment of the scale model department? Their Facebook page certainly looks more like a toy shop page than a scale model producer's.



And Dragon just announced they have acquired the rights for Star Wars, so makes you wonder where the main effort and money is going.
Biggles2
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 08:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text


And Dragon just announced they have acquired the rights for Star Wars, so makes you wonder where the main effort and money is going.



All right! A bobblehead Darth Vader!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 09:20 PM UTC

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And Dragon just announced they have acquired the rights for Star Wars, so makes you wonder where the main effort and money is going.



All right! A bobblehead Darth Vader!



Certainly NOT TO BLACK LABEL... It seems that DRAGON "WILL SPARE NO EXPENSE", (their quotes) for Tiger Is, except to delete "Magic Tracks", good PE, Clear parts, Optional parts, and Metal Barrels. "DS" Tracks do not a good WWII German Tank make, although I have no problem with them for US Vehicles, since most ("most" being a key word, here) US Vehicles utilize "Live Tracks", which are supposed to be adjusted as tightly as possible without binding the suspension's moving parts...

I have my doubts over BLACK PLAGUE's new T54E1...

"STAR WARS, The Empire Awakens", and goes back to sleep...
tankmodeler
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 10:16 PM UTC
I try not to ask too much. I don't need all the detail in the world nor all the extra parts or options. All I want is a kit where the shapes are basically accurate.

Want to save tooling money by moulding on the handles and periscopes and even the tools? Go right ahead, but please let the underlying shapes and locations of features be correct. I can fix everything else easily and am happy to pay a higher price for an accurate niche kit of a really cool subject like this.

Reshaping kits or putting them through a chop shop, as Pavel did on the M103A1, I can still do, but it pretty much sucks the fun out of the build and make me not want to spend anything like full market price for such a kit.

Others' mileage may vary.

Paul
junglejim
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 10:36 PM UTC
Hmmm, 45 million WoT users vs what, 5000 'serious' modellers around the world (and I'm being optimistic I think). You can complain all you want to but don't expect much...

Jim
ninjrk
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Posted: Monday, December 07, 2015 - 11:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hmmm, 45 million WoT users vs what, 5000 'serious' modellers around the world (and I'm being optimistic I think). You can complain all you want to but don't expect much...

Jim



And we won't get it!. For many of the Black Label kits I wouldn't mind some general shape innacuracies as I don't know the tanks well enough to have noticed had it not been pointed out. My issue is the badly simplified detail, which stands out greatly even if you don't know the tank. Many areas of the Conqueror were like that. If it was a tank that I was passionate about I'd be willing to tear it apart and redetail it but for t what they've had, I don't have the interest in the subject to spend that time when I could be building a good kit of another tank. Thank God Merit is tackling the T29 series and Trumpeter did the IS-7.
ChrisDM
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 12:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hmmm, 45 million WoT users vs what, 5000 'serious' modellers around the world (and I'm being optimistic I think). You can complain all you want to but don't expect much...

Jim



Can't argue with economics, but you can with assumptions:

1. this figure assumes most if not all WOT players are interested in models. Maybe they are. Maybe they'd rather play WOT than building models

2. it assumes Dragon are after this market; in which case why release a Saladin; is there even one in the game

3. it presupposes its an 'either or' situation. If we're talking pure economics why not make it less terrible so you can sell to more people?

Just playing Devil's Advocate
ChrisDM
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 12:02 AM UTC
Addendum, if they were that bothered about chasing wot why not do what italeri are doing and repop old kits cheap that feature in teh game and stick a 'World of W...Tanks' sticker on it?
junglejim
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 01:52 AM UTC
All true, but just think if even just 1% of those players want to try building a model of 'their' tank, that's 450,000 kits sold! Hey, I'm with you, if we're paying $80+ for a kit, it would be great to get what you payed for, but until manufacturers figure it out (if they even care), we get what we get. I guess the bottom line is don't like it, don't buy it; send them a message.

Jim
ChrisDM
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 02:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

All true, but just think if even just 1% of those players want to try building a model of 'their' tank, that's 450,000 kits sold! Hey, I'm with you, if we're paying $80+ for a kit, it would be great to get what you payed for, but until manufacturers figure it out (if they even care), we get what we get. I guess the bottom line is don't like it, don't buy it; send them a message.

Jim



Sound logic all round

Luckily there are lots of companies now delivering the gods. DML are no longer at the cutting edge of quality. Unless its a subject somebody *has* to have (and when is it ever really, when you there is so much choice) then go buy and enjoy something else

My disappointment with the conqueror was largely due to the £55 I dropped to find out it was so bad
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 08:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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I have the M48A3 and I haven't looked at it closely but I believe that kit is OK?


It's not perfect (e.g. road wheels could certainly be better), but generally pretty good.



From what I've read on this site Pavel, the second M48A3 kit is a little bit improved over the initial M48A3 Mod.B kit... Comments to this are welcome!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 08:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

All true, but just think if even just 1% of those players want to try building a model of 'their' tank, that's 450,000 kits sold! Hey, I'm with you, if we're paying $80+ for a kit, it would be great to get what you payed for, but until manufacturers figure it out (if they even care), we get what we get. I guess the bottom line is don't like it, don't buy it; send them a message.

Jim



"They" don't listen...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 08:44 AM UTC

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Even though the Black Label series may not be completely accurate, I think their products are pretty interesting. In my opinion I would be more interested in seeing one of these being built rather than a usual panther or Sherman build. Although the details are exact, I would still enjoy building this kit imho



Yeah, BLACK LABEL DOES put out some interesting subject matter. I just wish that they would do a better job when they do...
Petition2God
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 09:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

what, 5000 'serious' modellers around the world (and I'm being optimistic I think). You can complain all you want to but don't expect much...

Jim



Nah Jim, you're being conservative I think. There are more of us. I am pretty sure Japan, South Korea, China (including Hong Kong), and Taiwan combined would have more than 5,000 serious modellers. It doesn't seem as popular in North America for sure.
Medalofdead
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 10:14 AM UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen relatively few modelers ever finish kits of prototypes or paper tanks. Perhaps most of these purchases simply come from a spasm of seeking novelty or other interests unrelated to the appearance of tanks themselves(say, games).
SSGToms
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 10:15 AM UTC
There are 100 million World of Tanks players worldwide. I've seen 5000 serious modelers at one AMPS show. so that number is also much much higher!
Medalofdead
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 12:52 PM UTC
Oh, another thing. After posting this thread I begin doubting whether there are really periscopes on the cupola(it will be funny if there aren't but fact is needed). Then I found this



So yes, there are periscopes on the it. Pawel, if possible would you send this photo to the dragon?(I assume they don't have it)
Vodnik
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 02:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Pawel, if possible would you send this photo to the dragon?(I assume they don't have it)



The sketches they have show the correct cupola quite clearly, so I'm sure they already know how it is supposed to look like. By the way, I was told that I will receive the final CAD design for review once it's done, so if there are still any major flaws left at that point, I will have a chance to catch them.
Medalofdead
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 04:18 PM UTC

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Pawel, if possible would you send this photo to the dragon?(I assume they don't have it)



The sketches they have show the correct cupola quite clearly, so I'm sure they already know how it is supposed to look like. By the way, I was told that I will receive the final CAD design for review once it's done, so if there are still any major flaws left at that point, I will have a chance to catch them.



Have they checked the hatch on the turret rear? The photo I posted earlier shows that it is a little bit more to the left than shown in the CAD. It should also protrude more. The ventilator on the right corner is a little bit misaligned to me as well.

Vodnik
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Posted: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 04:28 PM UTC

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Have they checked the hatch on the turret rear? The photo I posted earlier shows that it is a little bit more to the left than shown in the CAD. It should also protrude more.


I don't know what they've checked and what they haven't, but again: the sketches show correct placement of the hatch.