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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Dragon loses the last of its pricing sanity
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

exactly !!If you don't want it don't buy it !


That really isn't the point...the point is how is Dragon expecting to stay in business selling crappy and overpriced products? Their new releases (well the ones I'm mostly interested in) have gone downhill and their quality they've been known for/reputation since their Tiger 1 release about 10 years ago has done a 180 turn for the worse. Then charging insane pricing for items doesn't help. Sure would make an interesting business case.

From what I gather, a company has to sell about 5K models to break even on the molds...I've also heard some interesting comments about this, like companies saying they are going to release something, then waiting till they get the pre-orders in then releasing it only when that magic number is hit.

Some other rants I've seen here....I remember going to my first model shows about 25 years ago in my late teens...and not really seeing anyone that was my age at time...now I'm 41 and I still see same people or people now my age. I don't get hung up about age or young people making models anymore, what it boils down to is the US nor the EU is really driving the market anymore...its Asian market. That is part of the reason why we are seeing all these Cold war/modern era releases from new Chinese companies...Younger generations aren't really interested in WW2 anymore (it happened 70+ years ago...that is almost 3 generations ago...and their great grandparents fought in it) so more up to date subjects are going to get peoples attentions, even though the M1's design is almost 40 years old.

Also people who are younger either don't have the disposable income they have when they are older and more established, unless they are getting $$ from their parents...thus why you see older guys who have children who are doing other things since they are older (Sports etc) and allowing them to go out and go to shows.



To All following this thread:

Kids with a low-spending allowance? Have any of you visited any of our College campuses lately? I see snot-nosed brats driving around in brand-new BMWs who could give a crap if there's anyone crossing the streets- they'd just as soon run the pedestrians over. I see all kinds of other stuff going on, which I WON'T BOTHER TO GO INTO at this time. Does anyone think that today's adolescent is going to fork over $50-$70 (retail, that is) for a plastic MODEL?!?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!! They'd rather bug Mom and/or Dad for the latest Top-Dollar Samsung S-whatever-happens-to-be-the-newest-phone-released-in-the-last-5-minutes, which will cost upwards of $600-$700 bucks... And you know what? Mom and/or Dad will oblige...

We are well into the 21st Century, so DON'T expect plastic model companies (or anyone else) to sell their wares at 20th Century prices. And it doesn't matter if the kit is the latest release, OR 20-30 years old. The model manufacturers are only interested in their profits, not how deep your pockets are. It's sad, but that's the way it is, and it's NOT going to get any better. This is the primary reason why so many Independent Hobby Shops are having great difficulties in keeping not only the latest merchandise on their shelves, but keeping their doors open as well...

So... If you're floored by the outrageous prices that DRAGON (and a few others) are charging for their stuff, try ebay (No, I don't work for ebay) and TAKE THE TIME TO SHOP AROUND while you're there. I recently picked up an AFV CLUB LVTP5A1 for $25 bucks with FREE shipping. It took a while, but I finally got the deal that I was looking for. Just try it- it can't hurt...
SEDimmick
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

exactly !!If you don't want it don't buy it !


That really isn't the point...the point is how is Dragon expecting to stay in business selling crappy and overpriced products? Their new releases (well the ones I'm mostly interested in) have gone downhill and their quality they've been known for/reputation since their Tiger 1 release about 10 years ago has done a 180 turn for the worse. Then charging insane pricing for items doesn't help. Sure would make an interesting business case.

From what I gather, a company has to sell about 5K models to break even on the molds...I've also heard some interesting comments about this, like companies saying they are going to release something, then waiting till they get the pre-orders in then releasing it only when that magic number is hit.

Some other rants I've seen here....I remember going to my first model shows about 25 years ago in my late teens...and not really seeing anyone that was my age at time...now I'm 41 and I still see same people or people now my age. I don't get hung up about age or young people making models anymore, what it boils down to is the US nor the EU is really driving the market anymore...its Asian market. That is part of the reason why we are seeing all these Cold war/modern era releases from new Chinese companies...Younger generations aren't really interested in WW2 anymore (it happened 70+ years ago...that is almost 3 generations ago...and their great grandparents fought in it) so more up to date subjects are going to get peoples attentions, even though the M1's design is almost 40 years old.

Also people who are younger either don't have the disposable income they have when they are older and more established, unless they are getting $$ from their parents...thus why you see older guys who have children who are doing other things since they are older (Sports etc) and allowing them to go out and go to shows.



To All following this thread:

Kids with a low-spending allowance? Have any of you visited any of our College campuses lately? I see snot-nosed brats driving around in brand-new BMWs who could give a crap if there's anyone crossing the streets- they'd just as soon run the pedestrians over. I see all kinds of other stuff going on, which I WON'T BOTHER TO GO INTO at this time. Does anyone think that today's adolescent is going to fork over $50-$70 (retail, that is) for a plastic MODEL?!?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!! They'd rather bug Mom and/or Dad for the latest Top-Dollar Samsung S-whatever-happens-to-be-the-newest-phone-released-in-the-last-5-minutes, which will cost upwards of $600-$700 bucks... And you know what? Mom and/or Dad will oblige...



The problem is that your focusing on outliers...not the overall general public. That cell phone is only $200-300 upfront with a $100 or so a month contract...the price is subsidized in that monthly recurring charge from the cell company.

Getting back on subject....Warhammer is/was popular with teens (at least it was when my LHS was around) and have you ever seen the pricing on that stuff? Or better yet, a typical game for a PS4/Xbox One is $60.

So lets get back on subject here....Dragon charging $70+ on a kit that is nearly 30 years old and has had its tooling costs long paid off is ridiculous! The kit used to be sold in an Orange box (their value lineup years ago) for $20 bucks or so. The costs of plastic/paper materials for packaging/shipping hasn't gone up THAT much in the past 10-15 since that orange box came out.

You can't make a profit if the kit doesn't sell...


SSGToms
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 08:59 PM UTC
WOW! I bought the Panther II kit in a Shanghai Dragon box for $19.95 in 1999!
M4A1Sherman
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Joined: May 02, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 09:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

exactly !!If you don't want it don't buy it !


That really isn't the point...the point is how is Dragon expecting to stay in business selling crappy and overpriced products? Their new releases (well the ones I'm mostly interested in) have gone downhill and their quality they've been known for/reputation since their Tiger 1 release about 10 years ago has done a 180 turn for the worse. Then charging insane pricing for items doesn't help. Sure would make an interesting business case.

From what I gather, a company has to sell about 5K models to break even on the molds...I've also heard some interesting comments about this, like companies saying they are going to release something, then waiting till they get the pre-orders in then releasing it only when that magic number is hit.

Some other rants I've seen here....I remember going to my first model shows about 25 years ago in my late teens...and not really seeing anyone that was my age at time...now I'm 41 and I still see same people or people now my age. I don't get hung up about age or young people making models anymore, what it boils down to is the US nor the EU is really driving the market anymore...its Asian market. That is part of the reason why we are seeing all these Cold war/modern era releases from new Chinese companies...Younger generations aren't really interested in WW2 anymore (it happened 70+ years ago...that is almost 3 generations ago...and their great grandparents fought in it) so more up to date subjects are going to get peoples attentions, even though the M1's design is almost 40 years old.

Also people who are younger either don't have the disposable income they have when they are older and more established, unless they are getting $$ from their parents...thus why you see older guys who have children who are doing other things since they are older (Sports etc) and allowing them to go out and go to shows.



To All following this thread:

Kids with a low-spending allowance? Have any of you visited any of our College campuses lately? I see snot-nosed brats driving around in brand-new BMWs who could give a crap if there's anyone crossing the streets- they'd just as soon run the pedestrians over. I see all kinds of other stuff going on, which I WON'T BOTHER TO GO INTO at this time. Does anyone think that today's adolescent is going to fork over $50-$70 (retail, that is) for a plastic MODEL?!?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!! They'd rather bug Mom and/or Dad for the latest Top-Dollar Samsung S-whatever-happens-to-be-the-newest-phone-released-in-the-last-5-minutes, which will cost upwards of $600-$700 bucks... And you know what? Mom and/or Dad will oblige...



The problem is that your focusing on outliers...not the overall general public. That cell phone is only $200-300 upfront with a $100 or so a month contract...the price is subsidized in that monthly recurring charge from the cell company.

Getting back on subject....Warhammer is/was popular with teens (at least it was when my LHS was around) and have you ever seen the pricing on that stuff? Or better yet, a typical game for a PS4/Xbox One is $60.

So lets get back on subject here....Dragon charging $70+ on a kit that is nearly 30 years old and has had its tooling costs long paid off is ridiculous! The kit used to be sold in an Orange box (their value lineup years ago) for $20 bucks or so. The costs of plastic/paper materials for packaging/shipping hasn't gone up THAT much in the past 10-15 since that orange box came out.

You can't make a profit if the kit doesn't sell...




"ONLY" $200-$300 UP-FRONT?!? PLUS $100 per month..? That $600-$700 bucks is going to add up pretty darned quickly, if you ask me... And then, Junior or Juniorette isn't going to be happy with that S6 for long- They'll want the the S7, S8, S9... Then there are the X-Box games at $60.00 a pop. You get the idea...

My intentions were not to go against you in any way, rather these are just my general observations on what is going on, the ridiculous pricing of our "ancient" plastic model-making hobby notwithstanding. My point about the kids and their interests are just reflecting the present trend in "where their heads are at". (un-grammatical, but still true)

Look at it from the model manufacturers' (DRAGON's, specifically), point of view, which I vehemently DISAGREE with, by the way... So here's the Boardroom scenario at DRAGON/CYBERTRASH/BLACK PLAGUE:

Picture a bloated, sweating CEO with all kinds of international currencies falling out of his over-stuffed suit pockets. He is addressing his minions-

"If we can charge $60-$70 bucks a pop for our latest $#!+, then it stands to reason that we can charge the same prices for our OLD junk!!! HEH-HEH-HEH-HEH-HEH", as they rub their rotten, festering paws together gleefully...

OK, so I'm exaggerating a little, but I think you can agree that I'm not very far off the mark- Hey listen- I AGREE WITH YOU 1000%!!! They shouldn't be charging that much for a 20-30-year old kit, but they are, and many of us will step up and buy those old dogs. But- I refuse to pay retail for them. That's why I do my shopping on ebay, and buy from the guy or gal with the lowest offer... Simple as that... Thanks for listening, anyway...

PS- I'm thinking of picking up a nice additional DRAGON M1A1 AIM #3535 on ebay that I spotted this morning for $38.00 + Shipping- That's waaaaay under DRAGON's retail price, NOT including the Shipping...
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 09:19 PM UTC
I really don't see the point to this kind of thread. So what if company X want to charge high prices for their models. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. Don't buy it.

Company X will either see that the market supports it and they will be happy with the money they make, or the market will not support it and they will lower the price to what people are willing to pay.

It does no good to cry and whine about how high the price is.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 09:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I really don't see the point to this kind of thread. So what if company X want to charge high prices for their models. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. Don't buy it.

Company X will either see that the market supports it and they will be happy with the money they make, or the market will not support it and they will lower the price to what people are willing to pay.

It does no good to cry and whine about how high the price is.


Hi, Gino! AGREE- All the crying and "gnashing of teeth" will do absolutely NO GOOD at all. What you said is basically what I said in my first post in this thread- Essentially, GET USED TO IT, or find a different source to buy from, or don't buy it at all.

That's why I suggested ebay, where a lot of reputable (Asian) retailers sell DRAGON stuff for reasonable discounts- (in today's over-priced market anyway)... Unfortunately, other-than-Asian retailers can't compete with the Asian retailers' pricing. Don't get me wrong- I'd LOVE to buy from a domestic retailer most times, and I DO buy from them occasionally, especially when it's a deal that I can't pass up. I CERTAINLY won't rush out to buy ANY kit, or many other things at MSRP- That's the way I was brought up by my immigrant European Parents, may they rest in peace. Anytime a new kit comes out, I IGNORE it's Retail Price- I'll scope-out ebay before I buy. And no, I don't own any ebay stock, either...
Berlin45
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 09:56 PM UTC
I'm going to venture a opinion here, and I don't post that often:

1) I agree that any manufacturer who charges that kind of $$ for 20+ year tooling is being disingenuous. They're taking advantage of folks. BUT, it's important to recognize that the world economy that we knew it 30+ years ago has become unhinged from what we believed was reality (cost + labor + profit = reasonable price). The market today is: charge whatever you feel you can get for it. Not a judgment, just reality.

2) For Dragon (and the rest of the plastic model manufacturers, I believe) it's all extremely short term now. As a 50 year old modeler, who remembers the halcyon days of the 1970s with great fondness, there aren't a lot of younger folk taking up the torch (BUT IF YOU SEE THEM, ENCOURAGE THE HELL OUT OF THEM!) and there are a lot more frenetic distractions out there. Also, if Dragon can get their Star Wars model line/properties in gear quick enough it might turn out to be like the early 2000s 1/6 figures craze - more lucrative licensed toys out the door (to a much wider audience) and less Tiger/Panther plastic models produced.

3) There are a lot of things on our wish lists, and for those of us that can still afford them, the model companies are trying to oblige us as fast as they can before we're too old. Ironically, it's unlikely we'll be able to actually BUILD them all before we're too old, but that doesn't matter to them. All that matters is that we buy them.

4) And finally, I return to point #1 - anyone who buys these items like the Panther II at those fuzzy prices (if you care to click on the link, you'll see the item is now on back order) they've set a precedent - and precedents are all important, both for manufacturers and eBay. It says people are willing to pay, which gives the company a big green light, now and in the future, to charge those level of prices. Only when people refuse to pay those prices will the manufacturer/retailer be pressured to reassess their strategy. In the end those willing to shell out (for whatever reason) drive the market and those who won't or can't often watch prices spiral upwards.

PS - Also keep in mind that the Orange Box kits were obviously a recession strategy... and can you believe that recession started almost 10 years ago? Time flies for us old folks...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 - 10:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm going to venture a opinion here, and I don't post that often:

1) I agree that any manufacturer who charges that kind of $$ for 20+ year tooling is being disingenuous. They're taking advantage of folks. BUT, it's important to recognize that the world economy that we knew it 30+ years ago has become unhinged from what we believed was reality (cost + labor + profit = reasonable price). The market today is: charge whatever you feel you can get for it. Not a judgment, just reality.

2) For Dragon (and the rest of the plastic model manufacturers, I believe) it's all extremely short term now. As a 50 year old modeler, who remembers the halcyon days of the 1970s with great fondness, there aren't a lot of younger folk taking up the torch (BUT IF YOU SEE THEM, ENCOURAGE THE HELL OUT OF THEM!) and there are a lot more frenetic distractions out there. Also, if Dragon can get their Star Wars model line/properties in gear quick enough it might turn out to be like the early 2000s 1/6 figures craze - more lucrative licensed toys out the door (to a much wider audience) and less Tiger/Panther plastic models produced.

3) There are a lot of things on our wish lists, and for those of us that can still afford them, the model companies are trying to oblige us as fast as they can before we're too old. Ironically, it's unlikely we'll be able to actually BUILD them all before we're too old, but that doesn't matter to them. All that matters is that we buy them.

4) And finally, I return to point #1 - anyone who buys these items like the Panther II at those fuzzy prices (if you care to click on the link, you'll see the item is now on back order) they've set a precedent - and precedents are all important, both for manufacturers and eBay. It says people are willing to pay, which gives the company a big green light, now and in the future, to charge those level of prices. Only when people refuse to pay those prices will the manufacturer/retailer be pressured to reassess their strategy. In the end those willing to shell out (for whatever reason) drive the market and those who won't or can't often watch prices spiral upwards.

PS - Also keep in mind that the Orange Box kits were obviously a recession strategy... and can you believe that recession started almost 10 years ago? Time flies for us old folks...


HEY! Who you callin' OLD?!? I'm only 63!!!

(I've been at this hobby since I was 5, so I guess you could call me an "Old Hand", anyway)

I'll put my name to just about everything you just wrote, or more accurately, typed. I'm just screwing my face up slightly over your "point 4"- Whether a few of us who care enough NOT to buy this or that kit from any model manufacturer isn't really going to influence what they will charge us for their wares.

I expect that DRAGON couldn't care less, as they've already grabbed the Disney STARWARS market away from their competition. A few Panther IIs here and there, or even a general boycott of their latest garbage, or "yea..." even their ENTIRE LINE of kits isn't going to bring DRAGON to their knees, just to satisfy our yen for more "realistic" pricing...

Other than that, I think your opinions are very valid, as are everyone else' on this site...
Berlin45
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 12:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'll put my name to just about everything you just wrote, or more accurately, typed. I'm just screwing my face up slightly over your "point 4"- Whether a few of us who care enough NOT to buy this or that kit from any model manufacturer isn't really going to influence what they will charge us for their wares.

I expect that DRAGON couldn't care less, as they've already grabbed the Disney STARWARS market away from their competition. A few Panther IIs here and there, or even a general boycott of their latest garbage, or "yea..." even their ENTIRE LINE of kits isn't going to bring DRAGON to their knees, just to satisfy our yen for more "realistic" pricing...

Other than that, I think your opinions are very valid, as are everyone else' on this site...


Thanks for the words - I guess my point is to bring light to the bigger picture. Any market, or any human interaction for that matter, is a social function. The more people willing to pay insane prices for that Panther II means the price will stay (at least what we consider) insane. And I think we should all consider that this is the MSRP... what D-USA has determined it wants to sell it at. Other sellers will sell for less I'm sure... but It'll still be more than $30, at least for now. In a month or two, if enough of them don't sell for the higher prices, they'll go on clearance... but still higher than many of us think they're worth. Eventually they may get blown out, but that might take a little longer. We all play a part in this, all the way down the line.

Also, what we consider insane prices, and for the people who are willing to pay them, has driven up the prices on the secondary market as well, such as eBay and discounters. It's a hugely psychological thing - now those older kits look like a bargain compared to the newer kits. What was once $5-$10 at a model show can go for $20 to $50 on eBay (and of course other factors include the higher cost of shipping) depending on how much you want it.

And that's what it all comes down to - the psychological factor: your desire and 'need' to have a particular model kit (or TV, or cell phone, or car... or whatever!) that I feel in some ways tends to blind us to the fact that we all engage in this hobby as both individuals and a group of people. That's what these sites all all about, right? Getting together to share our ideas, techniques, and just as often than that, our collections (because as we all know 50% of modeling is recycling - LOL!) which many of sell to other like-minded members a very enticing and fair prices... which I have imbibed of may a time on these forums - thank you!

The whole thing all very complicated and definitely not black and white. We're the microcosm of a ginormous global marketing system, and if enough of us didn't buy something at a certain price, then a seller would have to take notice... and that does happen often, just not on an organized basis. Would an organized pricing protest work? Who knows, but likely not...

... the clock is ticking for this market. We are currently in the golden aged of rapid-release wish fulfillment going back to the very beginning to plastic modeling history, with limited release (compared to kind of numbers Tamiya would produce in the 70s) kittings of subjects barely dreamed of even ten years ago speaking to nearly every segment of the market. New manufacturers are taking bites out of Dragon and Trumpeter and I notice that even Tamiya's (discounted at places like Scalehobyist) prices are coming more into line with their newer competition... but still high by us old fart's standards.

in the end, it's all a matter of scale - what we remember vs the current reality of tooling and marketing strategies geared towards emotional desire. Getting caught up in one particular price right now (however accurate that might be) and focusing on that keeps us from understanding how the system has changed, how one domino effects another, and how we all play our part in how it all works.

Again, just my opinion... and as you can tell, something I've been thinking about for a long time - LOL!
darklen
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 12:17 AM UTC
I paid $21 CAD for this kit back in 1998. I still have it new in box with the shrink wrap and price tag on it. This was the "Shanghai Dragon" version. Adjusted for inflation, it should be about $30 CAD. The new price of the re-release converts to $85 CAD, a 300% increase in 18 years.

If it was a complete retool, fixing all the dimensional and fit issues like they did with the Panther F, sure it'd be worth it. But as just a re-release with no changes, nope, nope, nope.
Monte
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 02:01 AM UTC
Looks like they took a page out of the Tamiya play book.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 02:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks like they took a page out of the Tamiya play book.


I'll agree with this post, too. Only thing is, over the last 15 years or so, at least as far as 1/35 Armor, AFVs and Soft-skins are concerned, TAMIYA has been eclipsed by quite a few "new" Big Players- TRUMPETER, HOBBY BOSS, MENG, TAKOM, er- DRAGON, MIRROR, AFV CLUB, etc... TAMIYA has been re-packaging their old stuff and other manufacturers for quite a long time... Wherever the money is, I guess...
Tojo72
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 03:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Looks like they took a page out of the Tamiya play book.


I'll agree with this post, too. Only thing is, over the last 15 years or so, at least as far as 1/35 Armor, AFVs and Soft-skins are concerned, TAMIYA has been eclipsed by quite a few "new" Big Players- TRUMPETER, HOBBY BOSS, MENG, TAKOM, er- DRAGON, MIRROR, AFV CLUB, etc... TAMIYA has been re-packaging their old stuff and other manufacturers for quite a long time... Wherever the money is, I guess...


There has been an awful lot of new tool Tamiya stuff coming out also though,good stuff too.
Jagdpanzer Lang
Easy 8
Panther
WWI Mark IV
Isherman
Jagdtiger
JSU-152 and JS-2
AMX-13
SU-76

So it's not just reboxes with Tamiya
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 03:30 AM UTC
Oh, I've gotten some bargains on (good) Dragon products on eBay. Just shop and if you don't find something, wait until later.
JamesL27
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 04:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

To All following this thread:

Kids with a low-spending allowance? Have any of you visited any of our College campuses lately? I see snot-nosed brats driving around in brand-new BMWs who could give a crap if there's anyone crossing the streets- they'd just as soon run the pedestrians over. I see all kinds of other stuff going on, which I WON'T BOTHER TO GO INTO at this time. Does anyone think that today's adolescent is going to fork over $50-$70 (retail, that is) for a plastic MODEL?!?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!! They'd rather bug Mom and/or Dad for the latest Top-Dollar Samsung S-whatever-happens-to-be-the-newest-phone-released-in-the-last-5-minutes, which will cost upwards of $600-$700 bucks... And you know what? Mom and/or Dad will oblige...

We are well into the 21st Century, so DON'T expect plastic model companies (or anyone else) to sell their wares at 20th Century prices. And it doesn't matter if the kit is the latest release, OR 20-30 years old. The model manufacturers are only interested in their profits, not how deep your pockets are. It's sad, but that's the way it is, and it's NOT going to get any better. This is the primary reason why so many Independent Hobby Shops are having great difficulties in keeping not only the latest merchandise on their shelves, but keeping their doors open as well...

So... If you're floored by the outrageous prices that DRAGON (and a few others) are charging for their stuff, try ebay (No, I don't work for ebay) and TAKE THE TIME TO SHOP AROUND while you're there. I recently picked up an AFV CLUB LVTP5A1 for $25 bucks with FREE shipping. It took a while, but I finally got the deal that I was looking for. Just try it- it can't hurt...


I finished college a few years ago, and you're really painting this generation with a broad brush. Certainly there are the types you've mentioned, but they aren't the ones that model. In my age group this hobby tends to attract the more geeky, engineering types, or history buffs.

To say we're all waiting on handouts from mommy and daddy is pretty insulting. There are young adults in this hobby, and with wages static as they've been, that's a lot of money to fork over.

A few of you have said something along the lines of 'who cares, don't buy.' Well not every one has been modeling that long, not everyone knows they're getting some old re-pop. It's a good thing you know better, but they're trying to fleece everyone else. This isn't a take it to the streets issue, but it should at least generate some annoyance and lack of respect for Dragon, which is what I believe this thread was created for.
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 05:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Looks like they took a page out of the Tamiya play book.


Removed by original poster on 04/07/16 - 00:47:18 (GMT).
Monte
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Rhode Island, United States
Joined: December 08, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 05:49 AM UTC

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Looks like they took a page out of the Tamiya play book.


I'll agree with this post, too. Only thing is, over the last 15 years or so, at least as far as 1/35 Armor, AFVs and Soft-skins are concerned, TAMIYA has been eclipsed by quite a few "new" Big Players- TRUMPETER, HOBBY BOSS, MENG, TAKOM, er- DRAGON, MIRROR, AFV CLUB, etc...


You are absolutely right. They have sat around on their laurels too long, now they are playing "catch up".
Cantstopbuyingkits
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European Union
Joined: January 28, 2015
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 05:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text


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Looks like they took a page out of the Tamiya play book.


I'll agree with this post, too. Only thing is, over the last 15 years or so, at least as far as 1/35 Armor, AFVs and Soft-skins are concerned, TAMIYA has been eclipsed by quite a few "new" Big Players- TRUMPETER, HOBBY BOSS, MENG, TAKOM, er- DRAGON, MIRROR, AFV CLUB, etc...


You are absolutely right. They have sat around on their laurels too long, now they are playing "catch up".


No, they are just choosing to focus on their larger home market over a western minority.
james-dean
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New York, United States
Joined: January 18, 2016
KitMaker: 59 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 06:35 AM UTC
yes... that is true, if you dont want to pay,
just dont buy it ok good but

dont youthink this ?

this market is almost monopoly market
especially to someone who is wwii fan, who is prefer
more accurate model.

tamiya zvezda etc.. dont make so "high detailled and accurate, correct model, and veriety of model" like dragon does.

and meng model,takom, trumpeter dont make wwii models.

so this is almost monopoly of dragon .

there is not so much choices to them

that is the reason why we so upset
MikeyBugs95
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New York, United States
Joined: May 27, 2013
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 06:35 AM UTC
While I agree it's a bugger that Dragon is charging such high prices for what is a long out of date kit, I'd like to scratch something that has just starting to really itch now:


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To All following this thread:

Kids with a low-spending allowance? Have any of you visited any of our College campuses lately? I see snot-nosed brats driving around in brand-new BMWs who could give a crap if there's anyone crossing the streets- they'd just as soon run the pedestrians over. I see all kinds of other stuff going on, which I WON'T BOTHER TO GO INTO at this time. Does anyone think that today's adolescent is going to fork over $50-$70 (retail, that is) for a plastic MODEL?!?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!! They'd rather bug Mom and/or Dad for the latest Top-Dollar Samsung S-whatever-happens-to-be-the-newest-phone-released-in-the-last-5-minutes, which will cost upwards of $600-$700 bucks... And you know what? Mom and/or Dad will oblige...


Ahem... I am one of "snot-nosed brats driving around in brand-new BMWs who could give a crap if there's anyone crossing the streets" college students and I highly object to this mostly unfounded, and HIGHLY insulting, blanket statement that all or most college/university students are this way. This is mostly untrue and I highly resent it. While there are a few who are like this, the overall vast majority are very studious, nice people.

Many people I know did not beg their parents to buy them phones but instead bought their phones themselves. I myself had to create a detailed spreadsheet and explain my reasoning for getting a new cell phone, going from a 4 year old company-type "dumb phone" to a smart phone, and my reasons for the specific phone I wanted to get. That was just to get them to consider it. They did not oblige immediately. During much of the year, I don't have a job - my job is seasonal as I work at a beach for minimum wage I might add - and hence little income. I spend very little money most of the time. And when I do, it's almost always MY OWN money. I can't speak for others but I myself do not beg or plead or bug my parents to give me money to spend. And to be honest, many people are perfectly content to use a phone that they already have. They don't need to have the newest, biggest or best of whatever. Believe it or not but I don't think most college age people are that loose with money.


To add to this, I also know of more "brats" who drive Ford Mustangs or suped-up Hondas than those who drive BMWs. Come to think of it, I know of more than a few 40, 50 or 60 year old people who are that way that drive BMWs (or Audi's or Mercedes or Land/Range Rovers or anything else) as well.

As a final word here, Dennis, are you trying to say that your generation was distinctively and vastly different than this generation when you were in your early twenties? Is your generation when they were in their 20's so different and so much better from ours that now comparisons can't be drawn between them? While there are some distinct differences between your generation and mine, overall, I think overall they are essentially the same. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

But just to clarify if it is unclear, I could not actually buy my cell phone myself. At the time I had gotten it it was around the mid-point of my first year on the job (and my first actual job at that) and I did not have the money to buy it. I was also being paid BELOW minimum wage. I made the spreadsheet on my own accord and explained the reasonings. My parents did purchase the cell phone for me as an upgrade from my previous cell phone. I helped pay off a portion of each bill. But I could not buy my own cell phone. Just in case you're wondering if I "begged" for my "$600 phone." Call my generation spoiled-brats-who-couldn't-give-a-damn all you want. But know that that is not who the majority is. And I didn't become an Eagle Scout by being a lazy, spoiled brat.

And that is my final word.
TopSmith
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Joined: August 09, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 07:02 AM UTC
Michael G... My generation had some advantages over yours that we do not think about. I got a job at 10 years old mowing yards. (landscape companies do that now for $100 a month). At 12 I got a summer job doing simple landscape work.. (much less than minimum wage) At 15 I was working for the county during the summer drafting. I also was working as a bagboy at a grocery store. At 16 I was working evenings and weekends cleaning carpets and at 18 I joined the military. You can't do that today. The people who lost their jobs during the recession down sized their jobs and those starting jobs teens filled are now filled with adults. My daughter looked for many months before she found a starting level job. I feel for your generation. We older folks only remember how easy it was to get a job if you wanted one. That's not the case today. Young people do not have the options to work we had so they don't have an income like I did.
erichvon
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: January 17, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 07:41 AM UTC
I have to admit I refuse to pay the prices that DML charge these days as not only are they extortionate but unrealistic. I've got quite a few lot of DML stuff in my stash, about 100 boxes of figures and a pile of halftracks which are my latest fad. I have not paid retail prices for any of these as I have bought them off ebay. I haven't been able to work for the last ten years due to ill health so money is short but I won't let that stop me doing one of the few things I can still enjoy. Aside from the fact I cannot afford to spend £50-60 on a model even if I was still working I still wouldn't pay that for one.

When you look at the newer manufacturers who are on the playing field now and are turning out kits that are comparable and sometimes better than DML it does make you more discerning as to who gets your money. At one time the only player was Tamiya. I will admit I still like their kits as they are fun to build and pricewise have always been accessible, especially when I got into the hobby as a kid. Having said that I've noticed their pricing go up with reboxings of other peoples work which makes no sense. Even their own new kits like the Char 1B are being sold at DML type prices.

Figurewise I still like DML's output but there are better manufacturers out there now like Masterbox, ICM, Mini art who produce more varied and certainly more dynamic poses at a level that is as good as DML's Gen 2 figures. I look at the moulding not how many parts there are. DML's Gen 2 figures are over complicated for little or no benefit. The personal kit and weapons supplied are nice but the figures are no better IMO and I've built quite a few sets.DML figures now, even the ancient ones which are really inconsistent scalewise and detailwise, are expensive when you compare them against Masterbox for example.

Now here's the crunch. I buy the vast majority of my kits off ebay these days due to costs. Sometimes you can fall on your feet and get something for a fraction of how much you'd have paid in the shops/online from a company but you always get some sort of discount as you just think "I'm not paying anymore than that" and stop bidding until the kit comes up at a more reasonable price, which it will. Pretty much all the stuff I've wanted to buy I've got for less than half what DML puts the RRP at. Now when a box of their figures on average costs about £8-16, if I have to pay more than £4-5 I leave it as I know if I wait I can get them for that. If you look at the pricing of MB or Zvezda it's a lot cheaper by comparison and I don't mind buying them from a supplier as their prices are reasonable for what you get. On vehicles you've got people like Bronco, AFV Club etc who are producing really nicely moulded and detailed vehicles for a lot less than DML. People talk about research, moulds, materials pushing costs up but if that is the case, how do competitors do it for a lot less. They're charging a lot less at RRP and making a profit with the same sort of overheads as DML. In fact the overheads for DML would be a lot less considering if we go back to the kit that started the debate. It's ancient and they're charging double what it cost originally. All they're paying for is materials. They've made their money back on the moulds and research decades ago. To charge that much for an old kit as a re-release is just greed which sadly appears to the way they've gone. Over the years the competition has really eaten away at DML's customers as they were pretty much limited to DML and Tamiya and DML put a lot more choice out there. Now there's a lot of competition out there after our money. Rather than drop their prices to be competitive amongst the others, they've increased them which does not make any business sense at all. They're pricing themselves out of the market and as was mentioned earlier it appears that most modellers these days are middle ages men, not kids building 1/72nd scale Spitfires and ME109's as was the norm when I got into it. Kits were pocket money prices. Now if we as adults wince when we see the price it is definitely going to put kids off. I'll still build their kits but stick to buying them off ebay and save myself that much I can have two kits for the price of one.
DaGreatQueeg
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Joined: August 01, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 07:48 AM UTC
Some very interesting views coming out in this thread.

So firstly the kit is poor quality based on various past reviews and compared to todays latest kits.

It follows that anyone considering a purchase weighs up how badly it's wanted vrs the known accuracy issues, (and it is a what if after all) their available disposable income and kit cost. Seems like a pretty straight forward formula that would apply to most kit purchases.

So why are/do people get so twisted? Personally I think it's a Dragon thing. After all there are plenty of kits being released similar to this one, either poor quality, inaccurate, repop from the 1980 and 90s etc etc that have MSRPs at current average price levels. If it's a general rant about pricing v value/quality why not start a thread and name and shame those kits and manufacturers? But be fair, name them all.

As for the economics of pricing, it aint an evil board room plot to gouge western modellers. No ones going to discount a kit unless they have to. The toolings probably been amortised and any production run is going to have a healthy margin, sure it is. But so what. Maybe that money keeps them in business and kits flowing. In my experience our high margin products helped some marginal product lines stay afloat. We certainly didn't drop the price because we were making too much margin.

Only one thing is going influence Dragons (or anyones) pricing on a kit like this (and is isn't a tiny amount of protest non-purchases from us) its if a market competitor releases the same title with better quality and at least the same but probably at a cheaper price. No competition means they can price how they like and they will do. If it's the only game in town then regardless of measured perceptions someone's gonna want one and pay.

cheers
Brent

as an aside when a plastic "Halliburton" plate costs $58 to put food on in Afghanistan the $70 bucks for a kit that might take a month or so to complete isn't bad value, accuracy or not.

MikeyBugs95
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New York, United States
Joined: May 27, 2013
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Posted: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 - 07:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Michael G... My generation had some advantages over yours that we do not think about. I got a job at 10 years old mowing yards. (landscape companies do that now for $100 a month). At 12 I got a summer job doing simple landscape work.. (much less than minimum wage) At 15 I was working for the county during the summer drafting. I also was working as a bagboy at a grocery store. At 16 I was working evenings and weekends cleaning carpets and at 18 I joined the military. You can't do that today. The people who lost their jobs during the recession down sized their jobs and those starting jobs teens filled are now filled with adults. My daughter looked for many months before she found a starting level job. I feel for your generation. We older folks only remember how easy it was to get a job if you wanted one. That's not the case today. Young people do not have the options to work we had so they don't have an income like I did.


True, true. For me, in terms of odd-jobs, almost every winter since my Grandma moved into a senior living complex I've been going down to shovel snow off the walks and driveways to earn a little cash. That first year was the only year which I was really able to do that to the fullest capacity I could as the years following they hired a landscaping company to that job. Which I do understand: they don't want kids taking money from the seniors, but in a way, the same thing is still happening albeit not directly. Like this, there are much fewer job and income opportunities for high school students, high school graduates, college/university students and college graduates. It is very tough for students coming out of higher education with a degree to find work in their field of study unless they've had an internship (I'm actually kind of lucky as my mom has patients who work in the same field that I study), have previously dealt with some firm or have had a stellar college career. Currently, I work for the state because I also had trouble finding a job anywhere else. I am glad I have some experience in CADD and 3D design as I use this to make some money on the side but that is limited.

Even though I do have this state job, it's only offered for a few months out of the year. From mid-late May to Labor Day. I can't even work that time because of school. I usually start sometime in June and end in mid-August to prep for the new semester. So while I make a paycheck, I make only 5 or 6 throughout (my first year I might've only made 4) which leaves very little money to spend on extraneous expenses like models. I have no doubt that others in the hobby who only make around minimum wage feel the same. But this is why, if I want to buy something, I try to find as good a deal as possible. For example: I wanted to get the DML M103. Only recently did I buy it and only because someone was offering it for $19 US. Limited spending power is very much the case with many people. Including the younger generation who isn't well set or settled in life and just trying to get a life and career started or those with limited income.
 _GOTOTOP