Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
I've been Dragoned!
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 01:06 AM UTC
erichvon
Joined: January 17, 2006
KitMaker: 1,694 posts
Armorama: 1,584 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 02:58 AM UTC
I have to admit I have quite a few Dragon kits in my stash but never approach them with the build enthusiasm of say Tamiya. Admittedly they're in different leagues but for the pleasure of building I find DML's very frustrating down to their instructions. Their build sequence is at times totally illogical and also you cannot actually work out where a part is supposed to fit as it just points to a vague direction. I find myself relying on actual photos of vehicles more and more when I build their kits just so I know where bits go! That should be made apparent by the instructions as it's the whole point of them hence being called instructions. I've had the same problem whereby I've fitted parts and then find that the sequence is out of sink and therefore can't fit something else. I've learned my lesson and now scrutinise them and have actual vehicle images up on the PC at the same time.
Robbd01
#323
Joined: February 13, 2013
KitMaker: 791 posts
Armorama: 344 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 03:34 AM UTC
Dragoned,
I have not built a Dragon/DML kit yet and some are very close to the top of the pile to build. A quick check on the stash and I have 20 kits from them. Maybe to save myself from being Dragoned, I might just quietly sell off that part of my stash. Maybe if I was younger I wouldn't mind being Dragoned a few times.
Cheers
Oh - I 2nd the new lexicon.
I have not built a Dragon/DML kit yet and some are very close to the top of the pile to build. A quick check on the stash and I have 20 kits from them. Maybe to save myself from being Dragoned, I might just quietly sell off that part of my stash. Maybe if I was younger I wouldn't mind being Dragoned a few times.
Cheers
Oh - I 2nd the new lexicon.
TankManNick
Joined: February 01, 2010
KitMaker: 551 posts
Armorama: 543 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 04:47 AM UTC
Well pooh! Even the 'good' instructions are stoopid! By which I mean I have NEVER seen a model kit instruction with a LOGICAL build sequence! Always have to work that out for myself. Always!
Dunno about Dragon, only done a couple so far (though a few in stash), but my AA Abbot took a LOT of research! If I hadn't found photos of a real vehicle being restored with the road wheels all off, I would have been screwed! Anyway, point is, if you really want a model of THAT vehicle, don't let the "mere" instructions put you off. Still, got to have something to debate in a forum eh?
(And of course I would always pick good instructions if I had a choice!)
Dunno about Dragon, only done a couple so far (though a few in stash), but my AA Abbot took a LOT of research! If I hadn't found photos of a real vehicle being restored with the road wheels all off, I would have been screwed! Anyway, point is, if you really want a model of THAT vehicle, don't let the "mere" instructions put you off. Still, got to have something to debate in a forum eh?
(And of course I would always pick good instructions if I had a choice!)
Tojo72
Joined: June 06, 2006
KitMaker: 4,691 posts
Armorama: 3,509 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 05:13 AM UTC
C'mon guys don't avoid them if you got them,the Tigers,Panthers,III'S and IV'S are superb kits,as well as the 234 Puma,I mean I build them dozens of them with little difficulty,and I'm no master builder for sure.If I can,you can.Now if you don't want to spend big Dragon bucks on the new offerings,fine,but if you got them,your doing yourself a disservice.
TheGreatPumpkin
Vendor
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 690 posts
Armorama: 672 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 08:18 AM UTC
Hey Guys,
Wow! that's some serious venting! I got zapped, mainly because I didn't read things through beforehand (do NOT under ANY circumstances fit the loader's hatch until you get the fighting compartment on over the gunsight!). HOWEVER, I think we can all agree on the new term for our collective lexicon: I've been dragoned!
To those who have not built one of these beauties. I can not recommend them enough. But spend some time BEFORE you sit at the bench and build one of these suckers to read everything through carefully! End of rant, carry on.
Regards,
Georg
PS- I got the hinges fitted this afternoon and they look OK, so that disaster has been averted.
Wow! that's some serious venting! I got zapped, mainly because I didn't read things through beforehand (do NOT under ANY circumstances fit the loader's hatch until you get the fighting compartment on over the gunsight!). HOWEVER, I think we can all agree on the new term for our collective lexicon: I've been dragoned!
To those who have not built one of these beauties. I can not recommend them enough. But spend some time BEFORE you sit at the bench and build one of these suckers to read everything through carefully! End of rant, carry on.
Regards,
Georg
PS- I got the hinges fitted this afternoon and they look OK, so that disaster has been averted.
tatbaqui
News Writer
#040
Joined: May 06, 2007
KitMaker: 2,713 posts
Armorama: 2,451 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 09:27 AM UTC
Look for build logs / reviews as well. Take advantage of what you can dig thru the net.
Georg, good to hear your issue has been sorted out.
Georg, good to hear your issue has been sorted out.
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
Armorama: 1,615 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 01:23 PM UTC
I too have been Dragoned more than once, but I have to say to anyone not buying their kits simply because of the instructions you are seriously missing out. My main complaint is that where they offer alternate parts with different versions they NEVER tie them to the marking schemes. It is true you have to do research to get an accurate model, but they are hardly unique in this. I started with Airfix (half a dozen parts in the kit so little scope for error!) and graduated through Tamiya, so am a bit spoiled. Having said that any manufaturer who doesn't listen to criticism is taking risks. There are so many new kids on the block at the moment. For example I have found that I have a lot of ICM kits in my stash at the moment...
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 01:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
where they offer alternate parts with different versions they NEVER tie them to the marking schemes.
Be careful about saying "never".
Several of Dragon's Tigers explicitly link parts to markings.
David
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 02:15 PM UTC
Any old figure guys out there? Remember Historex instructions? A bag full of tiny sprees full of tiny parts and the instructions were a few wonderful drawings and a color plate of the original uniform. And the sprues and diagrams showed more variations than the production run of any panzer. Guess your best or invest in a shelf full of references.
The later green box kits included a few construction tips but that was all. Kind of like building a circuit board with just the wiring diagram.
Since I guess I have developed a kind of intuition in regards to assembling stuff. I can fill in the gaps but I still follow them. I don't trust myself that much.
The later green box kits included a few construction tips but that was all. Kind of like building a circuit board with just the wiring diagram.
Since I guess I have developed a kind of intuition in regards to assembling stuff. I can fill in the gaps but I still follow them. I don't trust myself that much.
Hohenstaufen
Joined: December 13, 2004
KitMaker: 2,192 posts
Armorama: 1,615 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 04:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Be careful about saying "never".
Ah David,mea culpa! So they're inconsistent with their inconsistency?! Good-oh! Like starting on old British bike with a tired magneto!
I've only made one Dragon Tiger so missed this.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 02:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Any old figure guys out there? Remember Historex instructions? A bag full of tiny sprees full of tiny parts and the instructions were a few wonderful drawings and a color plate of the original uniform. And the sprues and diagrams showed more variations than the production run of any panzer. Guess your best or invest in a shelf full of references.
The later green box kits included a few construction tips but that was all. Kind of like building a circuit board with just the wiring diagram.
Since I guess I have developed a kind of intuition in regards to assembling stuff. I can fill in the gaps but I still follow them. I don't trust myself that much.
Ahhh, HISTOREX... I LOVE the old HISTOREX Figure kits, as vague and as confusing their instructions were! By the time I had gotten into the HISTOREX Figurines, I had already been building models, along with correcting, converting, detailing, kit-bashing, scratch-building, poring over reference material for hours on end, and honing my skills for about 16 years or so. I had amassed a sizeable collection of illustrated reference material pertaining to Napoleonic uniforms and accoutrements, so I luckily avoided a lot of the frustration that was normally associated with the HISTOREX Figurines. On the PLUS side, HISTOREX Figure kits contained a miniature multitude of "extra" parts, with which one had the choice of creating several different positions or even styles of uniforms, if you were so inclined. Good reference material was essential, if one wanted to take that route. I still have about a dozen or so un-built HISTOREX figure kits; I had dozens more which I completed, fully assembled and painted, and sold for fun and profit. I WISH that I could find more of them to buy at "reasonable" prices.
I recently contemplated buying A SINGLE HISTOREX French Fusilier de la Ligne, 1803-1805, listed on ebay for the "paltry" price of $85.00 USD... Yeah... That's for ONE 54mm (roughly 1/32-1/30 scale) FIGURINE... They used to cost about $5-$15 USD EACH back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, which was quite a bit of money for a single figurine back then...
At the risk of opening up the old "Pricing Can of Worms", IMO, I think that many of you guys out there that moan and groan about 1/35 military kits, (some of which contain parts-counts nearing the 1000 mark), carrying retail prices of over $65.00 USD, need to advance your line of thinking into the 21st Century...
Sadly, many people's wages haven't caught up with the financial demands that plague their lives today.
So, getting back to the subject of "vague", "stupid", "poorly-thought-out", "confusing" and "frustrating" model kit instructions, I can't possibly stress enough the need to READ, PERUSE, and add notations to said instructions at least SEVERAL TIMES, dry-fitting, notwithstanding. Good, reliable Reference Material and Modelling Reviews are also invaluable aids that one should take advantage of, especially with the WEALTH of information that we have access to today...
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 06:58 PM UTC
According to http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
US $ 15 back in 1965 had the same "buying power" as US $ 113 and 71 cents today
Todays $ 85 would have been $ 11:21 back in 1965
Almost forgot: The kit retailing at $ 65 today would have been somewhere around $ 8:50 back in 1965 .....
and the kits back then didn't have the parts count or detailing that we are getting spoiled with today ....
/ Robin
US $ 15 back in 1965 had the same "buying power" as US $ 113 and 71 cents today
Todays $ 85 would have been $ 11:21 back in 1965
Almost forgot: The kit retailing at $ 65 today would have been somewhere around $ 8:50 back in 1965 .....
and the kits back then didn't have the parts count or detailing that we are getting spoiled with today ....
/ Robin
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:03 PM UTC
Yeah, you got to build planes with hat-sized rivets, raised panel lines, and barely any cockpits and tanks with rubber band tracks, no attempt at accuracy, and concessions to motors and batteries.
No thanks, I like living in modern times.
No thanks, I like living in modern times.
Removed by original poster on 05/13/19 - 22:47:56 (GMT).
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
Armorama: 8,109 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 10:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Several of Dragon's Tigers explicitly link parts to markings.
Academy's Late Tiger does the same. Not all the marking options can be built accurately (see David's help in my review), but the company makes a concerted effort to realize a number of historical vehicles.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, June 13, 2016 - 05:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
According to http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
US $ 15 back in 1965 had the same "buying power" as US $ 113 and 71 cents today
Todays $ 85 would have been $ 11:21 back in 1965
Almost forgot: The kit retailing at $ 65 today would have been somewhere around $ 8:50 back in 1965 .....
and the kits back then didn't have the parts count or detailing that we are getting spoiled with today ....
/ Robin
HEAR, HEAR!!!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, June 13, 2016 - 05:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Yeah, you got to build planes with hat-sized rivets, raised panel lines, and barely any cockpits and tanks with rubber band tracks, no attempt at accuracy, and concessions to motors and batteries.
No thanks, I like living in modern times.
Boy, have you got THAT right!!! I'm not exactly HAPPY about buying kits for upwards of $65.00 USD (retail), but I'm fully aware that that pricing is due to inflation AND FAR SUPERIOR engineering, molding techniques (CAD & Slide-Mold technology), attention to detail, and subject matter, in most cases.
I'm HAPPY to have what we are getting from the model manufacturers today, with, of course, a few exceptions. CYBERHOBBY/DRAGON and ESPECIALLY BLACK PLAGUE need to get their act together, if they expect to keep advanced, dedicated modellers. Having said that, I realize that C/D/BP's priorities rest elsewhere.
I also need to stress that I myself have a Hobby Shop's worth of 1/35 CYBERHOBBY/DRAGON kits (NO BLACK PLAGUE kits- after carefully reading reviews and build-articles) on my storage shelves and built ones in my display cabinets, so it's not like I diss C/D/BP without first-hand knowledge. I still buy them- Some of them, that is...
I also build 1/48 Aircraft, and the differences in accuracy, execution, quality and logical construction between 1960s-vintage Aircraft kits and today' are dramatic, to say the least. Ditto, for 1/35 AFV and Soft-skin kits...
CellarDweller21516
Joined: March 15, 2016
KitMaker: 84 posts
Armorama: 72 posts
Posted: Monday, June 13, 2016 - 08:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi All,
I need to rant here and I have no one to blame but myself. I'm currently building DML's STUG III ausf F/8 "Winterketten" Smart Kit. It's a really nice model with nice, fine detail and straightforward assembly. However, THE INSTRUCTIONS SUCK! There are two glaring problems with the instructions. First, in step 1 or 4 (depending on how you look at it), part D-11 needs to be added before the applique plate on the front hull should be added (check your references and you'll see what I mean). I caught that one. The other is in the 3rd act of step 11. They sort of omit the hinges on the hull for the engine hatches (incidentally, they are part G-40). They just mysteriously appear. #$%@! Here's where I'm at right now:
So this really makes a mess of things. I can fix it, but this is the sort of thing that really turns people off.
So where am I going with all of this spleen-venting? I'd like to add a new verb to the modeling lexicon. Dragoned: having your really nice model screwed up by DML's lazy, crappy instructions. Can I get a second for this motion?
Regards,
Georg
I too hate dragon instructions but after years of building their kits I easily catch their mistakes. I take a good couple days to do nothing but study instructions and reference. I also use a different color highlighters to mark fragile parts to be added later in yellow, parts to paint before installing in orange, etc. Any time I find an error in the instructions I highlight the part number in red so later on I will remember there is a problem with a certain part or area of the instructions. The highlighter system is great for those of us who get distracted easily and realize mistakes after it is too late. another thing I do is when I find an incorrect part number I will cover it in "white out" and write in the correct part number. Remember, failure to plan is planning to fail...
easyco69
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Monday, June 13, 2016 - 09:19 PM UTC
I have the same kit, looked at the instructions & can clearly see a line to the part. They never omitted anything...your just a newb at reading Dragon instructions..so sorry..can't agree with your "Dragoned".
Build more Dragon kits...
They have made worse mistakes..but yours is not a mistake..it is human error...or not reading thoroughly .
Build more Dragon kits...
They have made worse mistakes..but yours is not a mistake..it is human error...or not reading thoroughly .
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 04:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have the same kit, looked at the instructions & can clearly see a line to the part. They never omitted anything...your just a newb at reading Dragon instructions..so sorry..can't agree with your "Dragoned".
Build more Dragon kits...
They have made worse mistakes..but yours is not a mistake..it is human error...or not reading thoroughly .
In Georg's defense, looking at the instructions here, I don't see those parts identified. We are talking about 6644, right, StuG IIIF/8 with Winterketten, Smart Kit Edition?
KL
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 05:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have the same kit, looked at the instructions & can clearly see a line to the part. They never omitted anything...your just a newb at reading Dragon instructions..so sorry..can't agree with your "Dragoned".
Build more Dragon kits...
They have made worse mistakes..but yours is not a mistake..it is human error...or not reading thoroughly .
Nope, there are no arrows for the hinges on hull. Those arrows show the placement of the hatches. A very clear omission. The hinges just appear, as if in one version of the kit they were molded on, which in this kit they are not.
I probably would have caught it because I am accustomed to that kind of omission. (Instructions assume it's already there when you were never told to add it. )
Try the old Frog/Novo Wellington. Same diagrams as the Airfix kit but a completely different parts break down. After building three of them I read directions and look at sprues and parts several times before dry fitting, let alone getting out the glue.
Pave-Hawk
Joined: May 05, 2006
KitMaker: 900 posts
Armorama: 510 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 07:33 PM UTC
I have been Dragoned.
Years ago I bought their 1/35 Bishop spg.
The instructions that came with it called for me to build a Panzer 1.
Tried see if they would send me the correct instructions, got a response but no instructions.
Ended up buying the Dragon Valentine so I could at least put the hull together and tried to wing the turret myself but couldn't figure out where a bunch of the parts went so it sits in a box partially built. I now have a bronco bishop sitting in my stash instead.
Years later I bought the panzer kit I already had the instructions for.
Years ago I bought their 1/35 Bishop spg.
The instructions that came with it called for me to build a Panzer 1.
Tried see if they would send me the correct instructions, got a response but no instructions.
Ended up buying the Dragon Valentine so I could at least put the hull together and tried to wing the turret myself but couldn't figure out where a bunch of the parts went so it sits in a box partially built. I now have a bronco bishop sitting in my stash instead.
Years later I bought the panzer kit I already had the instructions for.
Namabiiru
Associate Editor#399
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,888 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 04:38 PM UTC
Just finished Great Wall's Flak 43 and have come to the conclusion Great Wall instructions are orders of magnitude worse than the worst Dragon instructions I've ever encountered.
The first issue was that the instructions have two paths you can follow; Type A or Type B, but no explanation of what they are. After studying for awhile you can figure out the two versions are deployed for action and stowed for travel, but you have to study everything front to back in order to figure that out.
Several parts had arrows vaguely pointing to somewhere which looks like the frontside of the drawing, but turns out to be the backside out of sight, and the piece in question cannot be seen in any subsequent drawings in order to get a different perspective of where it should be placed. Other parts were completely mis-numbered.
One of the biggest challenges was that several steps were shown as a series of sub-steps, but there was no way to determine order in which they were to be completed, with the drawings placed seemingly randomly on the page. And if you didn't do them in the right order you were going to be forced to take things apart to get everything all together.
And of course the complexity of the whole thing meant not much possibility of dry-fitting everything to check placement and fit.
The first issue was that the instructions have two paths you can follow; Type A or Type B, but no explanation of what they are. After studying for awhile you can figure out the two versions are deployed for action and stowed for travel, but you have to study everything front to back in order to figure that out.
Several parts had arrows vaguely pointing to somewhere which looks like the frontside of the drawing, but turns out to be the backside out of sight, and the piece in question cannot be seen in any subsequent drawings in order to get a different perspective of where it should be placed. Other parts were completely mis-numbered.
One of the biggest challenges was that several steps were shown as a series of sub-steps, but there was no way to determine order in which they were to be completed, with the drawings placed seemingly randomly on the page. And if you didn't do them in the right order you were going to be forced to take things apart to get everything all together.
And of course the complexity of the whole thing meant not much possibility of dry-fitting everything to check placement and fit.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 19, 2016 - 05:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Just finished Great Wall's Flak 43 and have come to the conclusion Great Wall instructions are orders of magnitude worse than the worst Dragon instructions I've ever encountered.
The first issue was that the instructions have two paths you can follow; Type A or Type B, but no explanation of what they are. After studying for awhile you can figure out the two versions are deployed for action and stowed for travel, but you have to study everything front to back in order to figure that out.
Several parts had arrows vaguely pointing to somewhere which looks like the frontside of the drawing, but turns out to be the backside out of sight, and the piece in question cannot be seen in any subsequent drawings in order to get a different perspective of where it should be placed. Other parts were completely mis-numbered.
One of the biggest challenges was that several steps were shown as a series of sub-steps, but there was no way to determine order in which they were to be completed, with the drawings placed seemingly randomly on the page. And if you didn't do them in the right order you were going to be forced to take things apart to get everything all together.
And of course the complexity of the whole thing meant not much possibility of dry-fitting everything to check placement and fit.
I'm probably wrong, (I'm NOT a major WWII German collector), but doesn't BRONCO make some variant of the FLAK 43? Just curious. I don't (not yet, anyway) own any GREAT WALL kits, so I can't really comment on their instructions, as a whole. It sounds as if you've got your hands full with this one- So this begs the question: ARE there worse instructions than some of CYBERHOBBY/DRAGON/BLACK PLAGUE's? No doubt that there are, IMO...
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