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Personally, I would go with the Tamiya Easy Eight if I were you. It is a great late war tank and Tamiya kits are really easy to build.

When it comes to "really dirty it up" you can easily go to far, especially on American armor. Remember, American armor would not have been in war service nearly as long as some German armor, therefore would not have accumulated long term wear and damage. The Americans also did a better job at maintenance than the Germans and Russians, so the American armor would again show less wear and damage. And finally the most obvious would be IT'S A SHERMAN, many of them didn't last long enough to really get worn out. Of course, there are always exceptions.

Have fun no matter what you choose and remember to show us.

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Kurt DID mention in his opening post that he wanted to build a "MID-Late" M4-series Tank, so ASUKA's M4 Late-production "FAY" would STILL qualify within his criteria...

Of course, as everyone says, the choice is absolutely Kurt's own...

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DID you read somewhere that I said the Asuka DIDN'T meet his criteria?

Canadian Firefly

I'm certainly NOT going to dispute your logic, but I have the "AMERICAN HERITAGE History of World War II" book, and in it, there is a crystal-clear color photo, which shows a destroyed early USMC M4A2, (I'm assuming it's a Marine Tank, because I can't see ANY reason why the US Army would have ever painted IT'S Shermans Gray), in shallow ocean saltwater, beginning to rapidly deteriorate with rust, and indeed, it IS painted in the BLUE-ish GRAY that I mentioned. This particular vehicle, and possibly others in this Unit COULD be an anomaly, and I'm not color-blind. I DON'T make claims, "seemingly WITHOUT logic", so I kind of resent the derision... (emphasis, mine)

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Kurt: You've gotten lots of good advice here -- you see how much some of us are into building M4s. However, I think the biggest variable here is how comfortable do you feel in building complex kits? Some of the suggestions here (like the fantastic Asuka/Tasca Shermans) are for the advanced modeler and can be frustrating for the novice or even intermediate modeler. Where do you see yourself?

Dennis: I've heard the idea of "early M4A2s" being painted in Navy colors but I believe it's a myth. Firstly, all tanks would have left the factory in OD. To get what you're proposing, a Marine officer would have had to purposefully obtain Navy paint (that isn't conducive for land warfare, BTW) and then order his crews to paint perfectly usable OD tanks with this grey color. I find that incredulous. Can you point us to evidence to the contrary? I'm not saying it's impossible (I've seen wartime grey-blue painted DUKWs) but a bold claim, seemingly without logic, requires bold evidence.

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Hi, Roy!

I'm certainly NOT going to dispute your logic, but I have the "AMERICAN HERITAGE History of World War II" book, and in it, there is a crystal-clear color photo, which shows a destroyed early USMC (I'm assuming) M4A2, in shallow ocean saltwater, beginning to rapidly deteriorate with rust, and indeed, it IS painted in the BLUE-ish GRAY that I mentioned. This particular vehicle, and possibly others in this Unit COULD be an anomaly, and I'm not color-blind.

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the various early LVTs, including the LVT(A)-1 "Alligator" Amtank, with it's slightly modified M5A1 "Stuart-styled" turret and M3 37mm Main Gun, were also painted in this color, and later on, in OD, as were other models of LVTs. So, I don't think that it's totally out of the realm of possibility that some enterprising US Marine Officer MAY have ordered "his" possibly "derelict-looking" M4A2s to be repainted with paint appropriated out of US NAVY stocks. I've often wondered about this myself, because I'm perfectly aware that US M4-series Tanks DID leave their various factories-of-origin in my beloved OLIVE DRAB- And THAT'S EXACTLY why I'm not disputing you...

Your comments, as always, are very welcome!

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Dennis, does it say where the picture was taken? Early 'A2's in service since Tarawa might have been repainted for Saipan using what was easy to get. I have painted my WWII stuff with modern repo WWII OD and some of that paint will fade to a blue green color that looks gray-ish in bright light. Early color film wasn't the best either. With M4's, you never know.

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Kurt: You've gotten lots of good advice here -- you see how much some of us are into building M4s. However, I think the biggest variable here is how comfortable do you feel in building complex kits? Some of the suggestions here (like the fantastic Asuka/Tasca Shermans) are for the advanced modeler and can be frustrating for the novice or even intermediate modeler. Where do you see yourself?

Dennis: I've heard the idea of "early M4A2s" being painted in Navy colors but I believe it's a myth. Firstly, all tanks would have left the factory in OD. To get what you're proposing, a Marine officer would have had to purposefully obtain Navy paint (that isn't conducive for land warfare, BTW) and then order his crews to paint perfectly usable OD tanks with this grey color. I find that incredulous. Can you point us to evidence to the contrary? I'm not saying it's impossible (I've seen wartime grey-blue painted DUKWs) but a bold claim, seemingly without logic, requires bold evidence.

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Hi, Roy!

I'm certainly NOT going to dispute your logic, but I have the "AMERICAN HERITAGE History of World War II" book, and in it, there is a crystal-clear color photo, which shows a destroyed early USMC (I'm assuming) M4A2, in shallow ocean saltwater, beginning to rapidly deteriorate with rust, and indeed, it IS painted in the BLUE-ish GRAY that I mentioned. This particular vehicle, and possibly others in this Unit COULD be an anomaly, and I'm not color-blind.

However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the various early LVTs, including the LVT(A)-1 "Alligator" Amtank, with it's slightly modified M5A1 "Stuart-styled" turret and M3 37mm Main Gun, were also painted in this color, and later on, in OD, as were other models of LVTs. So, I don't think that it's totally out of the realm of possibility that some enterprising US Marine Officer MAY have ordered "his" possibly "derelict-looking" M4A2s to be repainted with paint appropriated out of US NAVY stocks. I've often wondered about this myself, because I'm perfectly aware that US M4-series Tanks DID leave their various factories-of-origin in my beloved OLIVE DRAB- And THAT'S EXACTLY why I'm not disputing you...

Your comments, as always, are very welcome!

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Dennis, does it say where the picture was taken? Early 'A2's in service since Tarawa might have been repainted for Saipan using what was easy to get. I have painted my WWII stuff with modern repo WWII OD and some of that paint will fade to a blue green color that looks gray-ish in bright light. Early color film wasn't the best either. With M4's, you never know.

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I THINK Kwajalein... Sorry, I'd PURELY LOVE to supply you guys with proof of what I've been gassing about but,

a) The book is at my other house, (126 miles away), and:

b) I don't have a digital camera yet, (D***IT! Maybe I'll treat myself this Christmas- Too many other things keep getting in the way...), and my antiquated cell-phone doesn't take any GOOD photos, otherwise I'd have posted photos of my work on ARMORAMA long ago, PLUS I don't have a color printer, either- Those things don't print colors very accurately, anyway.

As to the color-quality of the particular photo of said M4A2 is concerned, I have to say in all honesty, that the rest of the photo shows EXQUISITE color-accuracy, especially where the sea-water, the on-shore tropical foliage, palm trees, and the brilliant blue skies are concerned... I guess you guys will just have to take my word for what I "have on hand", 126 miles away...

One thing's for certain; that DARK BLUE-GRAY Sherman has always upset my sensibilities, even though I described this color possibility because I saw this thing in that book with my own eyes! However, as Roy stated, (and I whole-heartedly agree), that Shermans DID leave their factories painted in OLIVE DRAB.

Pete Harlem, who wrote the first, and very nice, I might add, "SHERMAN" book by Ampersand Publishing, also made mention of this "off" color, and built an M4A2 in this color as one of the Shermans in this book. I'm very eager to find out if Pat Stansel might find room in his "SON of SHERMAN" Volume 2 book, to discuss this possibility.

BTW, We should see "SON of SHERMAN" Vol.2 by next Christmas, hopefully- I emailed Ampersand with a query as to the status of this book, and I received a reply from Pat stating that bit of info. I certainly won't hold Pat, or Ampersand to that, because as we all know, there are NO guarantees in life...

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I'm certainly NOT going to dispute your logic, but I have the "AMERICAN HERITAGE History of World War II" book, and in it, there is a crystal-clear color photo, which shows a destroyed early USMC M4A2, (I'm assuming it's a Marine Tank, because I can't see ANY reason why the US Army would have ever painted IT'S Shermans Gray), in shallow ocean saltwater, beginning to rapidly deteriorate with rust, and indeed, it IS painted in the BLUE-ish GRAY that I mentioned. This particular vehicle, and possibly others in this Unit COULD be an anomaly, and I'm not color-blind. I DON'T make claims, "seemingly WITHOUT logic", so I kind of resent the derision... (emphasis, mine)

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This one?


http://stukasoverstalingrad.blogspot.com/2014/06/bogged-down.html

I think that might be 'Cecilia' Charlie Co, 1st Tanks.

I will look at Ed Gilbert's book tonight to see if there is more.

I think it is a film issue and not a naval grey Marine tank.

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Canadian Firefly

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What tracks are those on the hull? This is a great image to model a Firefly on!

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Canadian Firefly

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What tracks are those on the hull? This is a great image to model a Firefly on!

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Those are T54 Metal Cleat Tracks on this particular M4A2... A Firefly would, I believe, have been issued with British-styled Metal Cleat Tracks- I'm not exactly sure of which type. Maybe the experts on British Shermans could help us out in this respect...

It's quite possible that you're right about this photo having a color-issue. I say this because of the skin-tones that the Marines(?) are showing, DO have a slight blue-ish tone to them.

The photo that I'm blathering about shows a DIFFERENT Sherman altogether, immersed in beautifully clear seawater, half-way up the sides of the Upper Hull, YET the color of the M4A2 is nearly the same color as the one in your photo.

Upon further reflection, the photo in my post mentioning this color leads me more to think that it actually WAS taken at Tarawa, rather than at Kwajalein. I seem to remember my book devoting an entire sub-chapter, entitled, "BLOODY TARAWA", with this particular M4A2 as the opening photo...

Other sources have said that Shermans at Tarawa were ALL painted in OD, but IMO, the photos seem to suggest that just maybe, not all of them were...

Dennis: Plz let me apologize for my tone. I should have added:"If you can bring up the photos, that's BE1 100% great!" Because like you, I love seeing oddball stuff on Shermans. I'll look to get a view on that picture you've mentioned. Thnx

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It's quite possible that you're right about this photo having a color-issue. I say this because of the skin-tones that the Marines(?) are showing, DO have a slight blue-ish tone to them.

The photo that I'm blathering about shows a DIFFERENT Sherman altogether, immersed in beautifully clear seawater, half-way up the sides of the Upper Hull, YET the color of the M4A2 is nearly the same color as the one in your photo.

Upon further reflection, the photo in my post mentioning this color leads me more to think that it actually WAS taken at Tarawa, rather than at Kwajalein. I seem to remember my book devoting an entire sub-chapter, entitled, "BLOODY TARAWA", with this particular M4A2 as the opening photo...

Other sources have said that Shermans at Tarawa were ALL painted in OD, but IMO, the photos seem to suggest that just maybe, not all of them were...

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There was many tanks sunk at Tarawa....many it's one of these?
http://www.tanksontarawa.com/the-tanks.html

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Canadian Firefly

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What tracks are those on the hull? This is a great image to model a Firefly on!

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Those are T54 Metal Cleat Tracks on this particular M4A2... A Firefly would, I believe, have been issued with British-styled Metal Cleat Tracks- I'm not exactly sure of which type. Maybe the experts on British Shermans could help us out in this respect...

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I believe they are T54e1 with EEC, but Rory meant the tracks on the hull, some of which are Churchill tracks. I don't know what the thin ones on the driver's side are.
The Tank is a large hatch Sherman IC which was the British designation for an M4 with with a 17Lbr. I believe the only fireflies were either IC (M4 with 17lbr) or VC (M4A4 with 17lbr) All VCs were small hatch models, as there were no large hatch M4A4s

John

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Canadian Firefly

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What tracks are those on the hull? This is a great image to model a Firefly on!

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Those are T54 Metal Cleat Tracks on this particular M4A2... A Firefly would, I believe, have been issued with British-styled Metal Cleat Tracks- I'm not exactly sure of which type. Maybe the experts on British Shermans could help us out in this respect...

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I believe they are T54e1 with EEC, but Rory meant the tracks on the hull, some of which are Churchill tracks. I don't know what the thin ones on the driver's side are.
The Tank is a large hatch Sherman IC which was the British designation for an M4 with with a 17Lbr. I believe the only fireflies were either IC (M4 with 17lbr) or VC (M4A4 with 17lbr) All VCs were small hatch models, as there were no large hatch M4A4s


John

That's exactly what I was looking for. The next question would be are they welded on and would they have used tracks from German vehicles as ablative armor. I have loads of german track spares.

Sorry, my mistake- I SHOULD have mentioned that I was referring to Ryan K's photo of the USMC M4A2 Sherman in the Pacific Theatre, not the Firefly, which incidentally, is a converted "Late M4A1" with the CAST 47-degree "Big Hatch" Hull. I confess, rather shamefully, that I don't remember which designation that the British used for their later 47-degree Cast "Big Hatch" Hull Shermans... Once again, maybe the British Sherman experts can come to my aid...

Thanks-

As with the States, I don't believe there was any distinction between the M4 and the M4 composite in official papers. There was no distinction in large or small hatch either. So a Sherman I could have large or small hatch, composite or all welded.

John

You're welcome Dennis,

It's not easy to see that it's an M4 composite. The only thing I had to go on was that there were no Fireflies based on the M4A1. Only the M4, M4 composite, and M4A4.

john

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That's exactly what I was looking for. The next question would be are they welded on and would they have used tracks from German vehicles as ablative armor. I have loads of german track spares.

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Panther tracks


That's perfect! Thank you.

John

NOTE: The OD & BLACK camo was seen on British/Commonwealth/Canadian Vehicles, as well as the British BRONZE GREEN & BLACK cloud-pattern, or "Mickey Mouse" camo-scheme, as it has been referred to sometimes.

Either way you go, (overall OD, OD & BLACK, for US Shermans, and the same for Canadian vehicles manufactured in the US, OR, BRONZE GREEN & BLACK, for British/Commonwealth & some Canadian Shermans and other vehicles), you'd still be well within the realm of possibilities, as far as US/Allied camo-schemes go, during the last eleven months of WWII in Europe...

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That's exactly what I was looking for. The next question would be are they welded on and would they have used tracks from German vehicles as ablative armor. I have loads of german track spares.

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Panther tracks


That's perfect! Thank you.

John

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Hello all,
I'm thinking of building and painting an M4 Sherman (No Specific Variant) for my new project. What Sherman do you think would be best to make?

Criteria:
I do not own an airbrush
I have already built the Dragon M4A4 Sherman Orange Box
I'm looking for something Mid-Late War
I'm looking to really dirty it up

Many thanks