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Takom: T29E3 U.S. Heavy Tank
CowboyfromHell
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Posted: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - 09:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi All,

First, here are some turret top photos of the T29E3 and T30 at Benning, along with some interior shots:

http://www.com-central.net/index.php?file=viewtopic&name=Forums&p=92811

I don't know where the "bulb" on top of the plate for the breech inclination area comes from that Takom found since none of these photos seem to show it, but they also don't fully capture that area. It also looks like the rear edge of these plates are far too severe in the triangle plate. The photos show this triangle to be more subdued, and not as equal as the Takom rendering (the HB inclination plate looks to be completely off as a blister rather than a flat plate). Also, neither top plate looks to be wide enough to allow for the breech to fully incline for cleaning the main gun (too severe an angle running from the mantlet opening to the rear). Also, and this is from the way the photos look, the rangefinder housing on the T29E3 doesn't actually have the sharp "line" running all the way across like the Takom seems to have. The photo of that area on the reference page shows the housing to be more of a smooth rounding of the housing all the way to the turret joining area, rather than the top rounding, then vertical plate of the Takom housing. Also, it looks like it's sitting too high as opposed to the actual one.

As for the road wheel spacing, here's an easy way to find out what it was. Count the number of track blocks from center to center of the road wheels, and that will give you the spacing since the T80E3 track has a known width.

Jon



Some of the pictures taken by the Takom team clearly show that bulb on top of the turret, although the one represented on kit is sorta exaggerated.

https://www.facebook.com/354803674728188/photos/ms.c.eJw9zNsNwDAMQtGNKuMXYf~;FqjpJP48uoryyO5Hhq6inxu3sxhKOmSaVI641~_7x9cRzxe~;Zm27T9V2dPTAdvb3yd8jGDbVIW8AIoaCB5.bps.a.525465154328705.1073741874.354803674728188/525466794328541/?type=3&theater

Also, the back of the turret in HB kit seems too thick compared to the real one. Can anyone confirm that?
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - 09:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I think I have tire wear limits for the 26-inch wheels;



I have two Technical Bulletins concerning track and bogie wheel wear. In 1944 wheels could lose 1/2 inch on diameter before scrapping; by 1954 it was a full inch (25 inches in this case). Given that these vehicles did not see combat and only limited training use, I would expect that the real things measured close to 26 inches through out their lives and remain so today. If you still see the mold seam in present-day photos you can be sure that the tires have not lost much rubber.

The bigger problem with tank tires is chunking from stones and rubbing on the center guides and end connectors making the tire narrower.

In addition to what Jon said, also check the ground contact length for the vehicle. That number will be close if not equal to the center to center distance of the road wheels.

KL
SEDimmick
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 01:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you for the photos.

Looks like Hobby boss did not do their homework, but not a bad model after all, especially if someone is planning for a what if service version of the T-29



They actually where working on it for quite awhile (3-4 years)...what it boils down to is they lacked the references for it that Takom had access to.
Pedro
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 02:02 AM UTC
Using Scott's photo for illustration, just where the h... did they (takom) got the idea to do these:



I mean, they were there, and they still did it the way they did? They looked away while taking measurements of this area or what?

Greg
Wierdy
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 04:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

they were there, and they still did it the way they did? They looked away while taking measurements of this area or what?


It all gets more and more 'interesting'. Few people have kits on hand, but those kits are just as good as Dragon's 'outstanding' M103, which, in its turn, was a huge disappointment for many of us. Are there manufacturers that actually care or does it all come to market domination in any possible way?
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 05:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Are there manufacturers that actually care or does it all come to market domination in any possible way?



Oh come on. Are you saying TAKOM flew several people half way around the world to measure the real things because they don't care? HobbyBoss spent three or four years trying to interpret the only available drawings into a 3-D object because they want market domination in the easiest possible way?

Ridiculous.

KL
MikeyBugs95
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 08:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

they were there, and they still did it the way they did? They looked away while taking measurements of this area or what?


It all gets more and more 'interesting'. Few people have kits on hand, but those kits are just as good as Dragon's 'outstanding' M103, which, in its turn, was a huge disappointment for many of us. Are there manufacturers that actually care or does it all come to market domination in any possible way?



I wouldn't compare Dragons failure of anl M103 with this kit. A kit with a couple areas that are wrong with some areas that appear easily correctable is not the same as a kit that is COMPLETELY inaccurate with next to nothing being right and requiring a massive amount of work to get correct. I don't see much of a comparison.
CowboyfromHell
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 11:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Using Scott's photo for illustration, just where the h... did they (takom) got the idea to do these:



I mean, they were there, and they still did it the way they did? They looked away while taking measurements of this area or what?

Greg



Is that wrong indeed? Checking out some pictures makes me think that it's actually in correct shape while the HB one is oversimplified...
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 04:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Using Scott's photo for illustration, just where the h... did they (takom) got the idea to do these:



I mean, they were there, and they still did it the way they did? They looked away while taking measurements of this area or what?

Greg



It is odd:

T29, ex-Ft Knox



But T30, ex-Ft Knox




When I was starting out looking at Shermans and Stuarts I also thought theoretically identical parts would be actually identical. It didn't turn out that way.

KL
JSSVIII
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 06:04 PM UTC
Wow, great photos Kurt! Well it looks like the front slope is a fairly easy fix with some sanding to get the front slope to be correct for a t29, but from your photos, the "humps" in front of the hatches would be correct for the t30, which if I remember correctly, Takom is also releasing. You can't really blame them for that one, IF that is the only difference in that hull piece, it saved them from having to cut separate molds for two different upper hull parts, the emphasis on the "IF" of course! I think it will be easier to remove the material from the part, than to have to blend in a separate part that would have to be glued on (I'm talking about the "hump" or what might be a bullet splash guard in front of the hatches on the t30 photo.)
Pedro
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 08:30 PM UTC
Kurt,
What you've shown for the T30 at Benning is merely a transition between bow MG housing and the glacis slope, it just isnt there in the form TAKOM portrayed, especially if you take the photo from the left side. Here is the link to a photo of this area of the T30 at Ft. Knox, I'm convinced that photo of the Ft. Benning's T30 would look the same if taken from this angle.

http://svsm.org/gallery/t30/P1110863

To be frank, even the second photo of the T30 you've posted disproves the shapes Takom had created.

Cheers,
Greg
Wierdy
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 09:08 PM UTC
And to get correctly dimensioned road wheels they didn't have to go across the ocean as there is a perfectly preserved Pershing in museum in Beijing.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 11:07 PM UTC
The points to take away from the photos:

- The T30 has something that looks more or less like the shape on the TAKOM hull. I can imagine that their team assumed it was typical of all T29/T30/T34 hulls, on both sides. That is, I think, sufficient to explain where it came from, which was the original question.

- We should remember that all of these tanks were prototypes and pilots. The castings were being developed as each was made. At this time (1944 - 1946) castings were not designed on CAD and sent out for laser cutting. A mock-up was made and the pattern developed from that. Key points were established by engineering and the shapes between made by patternmakers, not engineers, using rules for minimum wall thickness and radii. It is clear in the T30 photo that the hatch sits much lower relative to the hull surface than on other vehicles. This was normally caused by the metal contour being above nominal. (Machined surfaces like hatch openings were usually fixed in space relative to baseline features.) The lump shown may have been the result of inspection of an early casting and a decision to tweak the pattern to remedy something. It could have also been the initial shape that was removed from the pattern that was used to cast the later pieces.

- There have been several "Ohmigod how could they have done that" reactions to model shapes recently, based on close-up photos posted on websites. When the kits are in hand, however, some of the critics were honest enough to write back that looking at the actual kit in real life the "horribly misshapen lump" is quite small and barely detectable. It was only when a 1/16 inch feature is blown up to the full width of a 20-inch monitor that it was unbearable.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Wednesday, February 08, 2017 - 11:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

And to get correctly dimensioned road wheels they didn't have to go across the ocean as there is a perfectly preserved Pershing in museum in Beijing.



So what? The efforts that both companies made to research these kits prove that they were honestly trying and apparently did care. The fact that there was one little thing that still could've been done does not negate the 999 things they did do.

KL
Wierdy
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Posted: Thursday, February 09, 2017 - 01:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

And to get correctly dimensioned road wheels they didn't have to go across the ocean as there is a perfectly preserved Pershing in museum in Beijing.



So what? The efforts that both companies made to research these kits prove that they were honestly trying and apparently did care. The fact that there was one little thing that still could've been done does not negate the 999 things they did do.

KL



However different our opinions are, there is one good thing about the whole story: we finally have these heavyweights in styrene. Let everyone decide for himself on how much or how little effort his build should comprise. Just a thought, with no intenion to offend somebody
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Friday, February 10, 2017 - 12:46 AM UTC
Well, my solution to this is that I'm going to buy a Takom kit to represent a T29-30-34 undergoing testing in the US in 44-45 and a HB kit and then use it to base an Israeli variant on and the wonky louvers will disappear under the weight of an AVDS-1790 engine change to represent a mid-80s T29. I'll probably also change out the gun for a Chieftain's 120mm and add American thermal sights to change the turret roof line.

These are both worthy efforts and there is a valid market for both.

Now if I could get even half as worthy an effort on a Ram Mk II...

Paul
ninjrk
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Posted: Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 08:36 AM UTC
Not to resurrect the contentious part of the thread, but I was the Wright Museum today with my tape measure and they have one of the Zebra Mission early Pershings there. After measuring three different roadwheels multiple times, the steel rim to steel rim at the widest point was 22.5 inches, with the tire it was a repeating 25.75 inches wide.
GTDeath13
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Posted: Friday, August 10, 2018 - 03:21 AM UTC
Sorry to revive this old thread but my question seems appropriate to the subject and there is no point in starting a new one.

If I want to build a T29E1 using the Takom kits, I need to combine the turret from the T30/34 kit, the gun and the hull from the T29E3 kit and find a proper muzzle brake. Am I correct?
Ranger74
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Posted: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - 06:00 AM UTC
Another apology for revising this thread. But concerning the depth of the rubber tires, based on my experience with M60A1/A3s, was not wear of the rubber, but either chunking from riding the center guides or separation of the tire from the wheel. I never saw a road wheel replaced for "mileage" like a car tire. They were only replaced due to the chunking and separation. So personally I'm not going to worry about the depth of the rubber on the ties.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Sunday, May 19, 2019 - 12:20 PM UTC
I am in the midst of building a Takom T30 and have been digging through my references for information. I believe I found an answer to the wheel spacing question. There was an APG report on the testing of the pilot tanks T29 and T30. The excerpt I have is undated but the table of component failures has dates from 10/47 to 12/49, so it is likely from 1950.

The "bogie" spacing (*), front to rear, is given as:

Right - 36, 29, 29, 29, 29, 29, 29 inches
Left - 32, 29, 29, 29, 29, 29, 29 inches
Return rollers - 28-3/8, 29, 29, 29, 29, 29, 29 inches

These numbers apply to both the T29 and T30.

(*) These are entries on a standard form and were undoubtedly taken from a general arrangement drawing showing wheel spacing.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Thursday, May 30, 2019 - 10:53 AM UTC
I've trued up all 36 wheels on my Takom T30 and have just measured them. All were greater than .736 (25.75) and less than .750 (26.25) inches in diameter, so they are within reasonable size limits.

KL
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