Hello:
I want to be clear about this subject. According to Wolfgang Schneider´s "Tigers in Combat" some of the 501`s Tigers in Tunisia were painted with captured olive drab american paint, but recently David Byrden said that there's no real proof ot it.
I´m not a "rivet counter" or something like that, but I think that Tigers are very famous to screw it with a scheme.
Hope the mistery can be solved
Best regards.
Hosted by Darren Baker
The "green tunisian Tigers" really exists?
Panzerfan
Joined: May 31, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 - 08:55 PM UTC
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
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Posted: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 - 09:19 PM UTC
David's pretty knowledgeable on the subject and if he's not seen any evidence then that probably reflects our current understanding. No doubt he would tell us if he found some but surely the burden of proof should be on those who claim that something unusual happened rather than on those who point out a lack of evidence to support it.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello:
I want to be clear about this subject. According to Wolfgang Schneider´s "Tigers in Combat" some of the 501`s Tigers in Tunisia were painted with captured olive drab american paint, but recently David Byrden said that there's no real proof ot it.
I´m not a "rivet counter" or something like that, but I think that Tigers are very famous to screw it with a scheme.
Hope the mistery can be solved
Best regards.
Color photos of knocked out Tigers taken in Tunisia by Life Magazine (and easily located with a Google search) seem to show the Tigers in the 1941 Tropen scheme (the 1942 scheme was authorized, but manufacturers were also told to use up old paint stocks first). The US technical intelligence team that examined these wrecks listed the color as "green," and one of the 1941 shades was greenish (and to his credit, Major Jarrett was more interested in the armor, drive train and firepower than in paint schemes).
The 504th Abteilung Tiger restored by The Tank Museum (and seen in the movie "Fury") was in that scheme, confirmed when they stripped the paint down, layer by layer.
The recollections of the veterans interviewed by Schneider decades after the fact may have been faulty.
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 07:43 AM UTC
Respectfully,
Several posts in this thread irritate me.
We havethe original poster who has anecdotal evidence off using captured paint stocks.
Them we have someone recommending the local expert, saying there it's no proof.
Then another post with information coming from a source that is more interested in combat value than the current paint job.
Then finally another sentence claiming faulty memory on part of the anecdotal evidence.
Because nobody in this entire post has complete knowledge, nobody can say that it didn't happen.
I'd put more faith in the word of the most foggy eyed veteran before I'd take the best guess of the modern day 'expert'.
Respectfully,
Gaz
Several posts in this thread irritate me.
We havethe original poster who has anecdotal evidence off using captured paint stocks.
Them we have someone recommending the local expert, saying there it's no proof.
Then another post with information coming from a source that is more interested in combat value than the current paint job.
Then finally another sentence claiming faulty memory on part of the anecdotal evidence.
Because nobody in this entire post has complete knowledge, nobody can say that it didn't happen.
I'd put more faith in the word of the most foggy eyed veteran before I'd take the best guess of the modern day 'expert'.
Respectfully,
Gaz
Abbie939
Joined: February 10, 2007
KitMaker: 23 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 08:56 AM UTC
Then Gazza.. You paint your Tiger model OD then.
Evidence says they were not. But its your model and pay no mind to what others have posted.
Evidence says they were not. But its your model and pay no mind to what others have posted.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 09:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Respectfully,
Several posts in this thread irritate me.
We havethe original poster who has anecdotal evidence off using captured paint stocks.
Them we have someone recommending the local expert, saying there it's no proof.
Then another post with information coming from a source that is more interested in combat value than the current paint job.
Then finally another sentence claiming faulty memory on part of the anecdotal evidence.
Because nobody in this entire post has complete knowledge, nobody can say that it didn't happen.
I'd put more faith in the word of the most foggy eyed veteran before I'd take the best guess of the modern day 'expert'.
Respectfully,
Gaz
You cannot prove a negative. All you can do is weigh the existing evidence and reach a conclusion based on reason and logic.
Mr. Bryden has done that and also done HI own original research. Mr. Owen cites the evidence from two other first hand sources, actual color pictures and a real life surviving artifact.
Weigh the evidence. Real thing versus memory . Any criminal attorney will tell you how little you can trust eyewitness testimony especially decades after the date. There is also what psychology calls false memory and created memory. Tell someone something happened and they will create and over time believe a false memory.
Based on all that evidence and weighed using reason, it is more than likely that a "green" tiger in Tunisia is a false memory of a poor color description. That being said the Life color pictures and tank "131" are the best evidence to base any conclusion upon.
Therefore the US color myth is firmly and soundly refuted and false and the "green" is merely a misperception of a greenish toned ochre.
No controversy. Proven. Stands up in a court of law and by all reasonable standards of proof. Laid to rest with Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster.
Full disclosure: I painted my Tunisian Tiger Afrika Braun because I liked the color and found the whole debate tiresome because it has been more than proven time and again what real colors were.
So just how many angels can we paint green and dance on the head of a pin stuck into the road wheel of a Tiger tank?
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 09:33 AM UTC
Three and only three, I am sure of it!! 
iguanac
Joined: September 06, 2007
KitMaker: 145 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 12:05 PM UTC
If you can not decide, let the market guide you: buy two Tigers, paint one in diluted OD (as i recall that eyewitness said), and other one in proper German colors. Apply same decals and expose them one next to each other - at least you can have artistic experiment.
And Dragon would admire that you bought two instead of one model.
"in the next episode: Panzergrau Panthers defending Germany in 1945"
And Dragon would admire that you bought two instead of one model.
"in the next episode: Panzergrau Panthers defending Germany in 1945"
AOS
Joined: September 29, 2005
KitMaker: 75 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 02:18 PM UTC
Quoted Text
...
"in the next episode: Panzergrau Panthers defending Germany in 1945"
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 04:04 PM UTC
What about the pink Elephants reported by some soviet units during the battle of Kursk?
I have already painted a Panther pink so now I'm thinking about a pink Elephant. Maybe I should play it safe and paint it white instead, for another battle since Kursk was in the summer, a white Elephant somewhere in Russia ....
/ Robin
I have already painted a Panther pink so now I'm thinking about a pink Elephant. Maybe I should play it safe and paint it white instead, for another battle since Kursk was in the summer, a white Elephant somewhere in Russia ....
/ Robin
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 04:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Them we have someone recommending the local expert
Who, me? I live in Austria and I post mainly in other sites. How am I "local" to Armorama?
Quoted Text
I'd put more faith in the word of the most foggy eyed veteran before I'd take the best guess of the modern day 'expert'.
I studied and cataloged 1000 photographs of these "green" Tigers and I didn't see evidence of repainting in a dark colour. If I missed it, please point it out and I'll be happy to eat my words.
David
ivanhoe6
Joined: April 05, 2007
KitMaker: 2,023 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 04:07 PM UTC
We will never be 100% for sure if the green tiger ever existed or not. My question is : Why would the Germans even waste the time, manpower and such a valuable resource as a Tiger out of the line to paint it green? I would think that for some reason a Tiger would need repainting they would have their own stocks to use.
Just my 2 cents worth on this subject.
Have a good weekend all!
Tom
Just my 2 cents worth on this subject.
Have a good weekend all!
Tom Hederstierna
#247
Joined: January 03, 2008
KitMaker: 1,102 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 04:20 PM UTC
I'm no expert either, but if we compare with the vehicles captured from the Allies in general, it seems that they were in most cases repainted in German colors. Think of the US Halftracks captured in the Casserine Pass, they were painted sand colors.
Of course there could be a German equivalent to "Odd Ball", who sort of went his own way
Jacob
Of course there could be a German equivalent to "Odd Ball", who sort of went his own way
Jacob
GazzaS
#424
Joined: April 23, 2015
KitMaker: 4,648 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 05:30 PM UTC
The simple fact I am pointing out is that none of us were there. None of us has access to color pictures of every Tiger there. No matter how many black and white photos we look at, we will never know exactly what colors each and every one were.
But the voice of one who was there is comsidered 'faulty memories' because it doesn't exactly fit into the story you choose to believe.
To claim complete knowledge about something that happened miles and years away is ludicrous. I'm glad some of you had some witticisms to share. They don't change the fact that you don't know everything.
But the voice of one who was there is comsidered 'faulty memories' because it doesn't exactly fit into the story you choose to believe.
To claim complete knowledge about something that happened miles and years away is ludicrous. I'm glad some of you had some witticisms to share. They don't change the fact that you don't know everything.
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 05:38 PM UTC
Can you tell me the source of this account? Where is it written that a German veteran stated that the Tigers were repainted with American paint?
You seem to be referring to the summary in Schneider (T.I.C.1) where he describes the tanks of this unit. But his tank descriptions are questionable.
He begins by telling us that the tanks of the 501 were delivered without mudguards and so the unit itself fitted "curved front mudguards".
But we now know that these front mudguards were a standard fitting, already on the tanks at delivery.
He tells us that the company commanders' tanks were numbered "100" and "200"; photographs disagree. He gives us numbers for the 2nd company Tigers that are contradicted by photos; he gives us a false account of the renumbering into 7 and 8 companies. He assures us that "712" used to be "812" although American photos disprove this.
And then he assures us, *without naming a source*, that repainting with Olive Drab occurred. This, he says, is why some digits appeared to have a light fill - but we can see such a fill on photos of 142 on the day of its arrival in Africa!
I see a lot of speculation based on insufficient evidence. I think his story of Olive Drab is based on British accounts of "green Tigers" rather than a German veteran.
David
You seem to be referring to the summary in Schneider (T.I.C.1) where he describes the tanks of this unit. But his tank descriptions are questionable.
He begins by telling us that the tanks of the 501 were delivered without mudguards and so the unit itself fitted "curved front mudguards".
But we now know that these front mudguards were a standard fitting, already on the tanks at delivery.
He tells us that the company commanders' tanks were numbered "100" and "200"; photographs disagree. He gives us numbers for the 2nd company Tigers that are contradicted by photos; he gives us a false account of the renumbering into 7 and 8 companies. He assures us that "712" used to be "812" although American photos disprove this.
And then he assures us, *without naming a source*, that repainting with Olive Drab occurred. This, he says, is why some digits appeared to have a light fill - but we can see such a fill on photos of 142 on the day of its arrival in Africa!
I see a lot of speculation based on insufficient evidence. I think his story of Olive Drab is based on British accounts of "green Tigers" rather than a German veteran.
David
SaxonTheShiba
Joined: February 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,233 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 05:45 PM UTC
It's quite simple actually-----no one has any idea what they were painted. Much like the Yeti, Sasquatch, and the SIOP scheme B-58 Hustler.
Sincerest regards,
Ian
Sincerest regards,
Ian
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 06:06 PM UTC
You can find the page from Wolfgang Schneider's book where US Olive Drab is mentionned here (no source given though... 
)
H.P.
)H.P.
smorko
Joined: March 11, 2013
KitMaker: 94 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 06:35 PM UTC
I even read somewhere that the color used was from Italian Air force or Luftwaffe stock as a way to test a different camo in the desert. But it didn't come from a reputable source, I believe I read it in some Panzer Aces issue...
Anyway many are still arguing the true hue of Dunkelgelb, often citing soldiers that claimed the vehicles had a green hue to them, so maybe a particularly bad batch made its way to Africa?
But I must agree painting the Tiger OD would be very stupid for too many reasons, especially since it would provide no benefit in the desert.
Anyway many are still arguing the true hue of Dunkelgelb, often citing soldiers that claimed the vehicles had a green hue to them, so maybe a particularly bad batch made its way to Africa?
But I must agree painting the Tiger OD would be very stupid for too many reasons, especially since it would provide no benefit in the desert.
urumomo
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 675 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 06:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
It's quite simple actually-----no one has any idea what they were painted. Much like the Yeti, Sasquatch, and the SIOP scheme B-58 Hustler.
Sincerest regards,
Ian
They paint the Yeti and Sasquatch ?!
Who paints them ? -- we need to find those people then .
why is no one looking for those people ?
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 06:54 PM UTC
These Tigers were usually not in any desert. They were in farmland or scrub.
David
David
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 06:56 PM UTC
Maybe we are looking at this from the wrong side. I see the words "olive green" in Schnieder's text as supplied by Frenchy. The words "US olive drab" appear, but where was this paint obtained? "Olive Green" and "Olive Drab" are quite different in shade. I personally find it difficult to believe enough stocks of US "olive drab" paint would have been that far forward at Kasserine Pass to have made it into German hands, Let alone for the Germans to take the time to repaint while they were on the ropes in N. Africa. Seems to me they had more important things to do. It takes a lot of time and effort to repaint anything in the field, not that it couldn't have been done, but one has to ask why would it have been done. I have at least two pretty accurate accounts on my bookshelf of the US fighting at Kasserine, neither mentions the wholesale capture of US paint stocks, or large amounts of logistical equipment captured for that matter. I suppose a single Tiger could be repainted with two or three gallons of captured paint but again-- why would you need or want to do that?
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
hugohuertas
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 07:02 PM UTC
Mr. GazzaS:
Panzerfan asked about the allegedly green Tigers of 501.
Some people replied sharing their best knowledge.
And then you replied twice only to criticize those people's replies, but adding nothing positive nor useful, while disqualifying Mr. Byrden and other people's attempt to throw some light on the subject.
Do you have any actual evidence to add , or you just want to criticize the people trying to help?
Who is wanting here to twist facts to adjust them to the story he chooses to believe?
What about saying that the Kraken should exist since there is no evidence on the contrary, and there were a lot of Scandinavian tales about it?
Panzerfan asked about the allegedly green Tigers of 501.
Some people replied sharing their best knowledge.
And then you replied twice only to criticize those people's replies, but adding nothing positive nor useful, while disqualifying Mr. Byrden and other people's attempt to throw some light on the subject.
Do you have any actual evidence to add , or you just want to criticize the people trying to help?
Who is wanting here to twist facts to adjust them to the story he chooses to believe?
What about saying that the Kraken should exist since there is no evidence on the contrary, and there were a lot of Scandinavian tales about it?
Kelley
Joined: November 21, 2002
KitMaker: 1,966 posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 07:14 PM UTC
Guys, this topic has been discussed ad-nauseam here and elsewhere. I'll state up front, I'm in the camp that believes no OD repaint happened. My reasons, on top of what has been said by David and Gerald above, my dad was there. He was a tank driver in the U.S. 1st AD and fought at Kasserine, and afterwards til the campaign in North Africa was over. I talked to him about this very subject a few years before he passed away. Now, I will also say, veterans memories can often be faulty. Some things dad had in almost perfect clarity, his buddies, commanding officers, where he was on certain dates and/or times. Other things not so much, for instance identifying and differentiating between the varieties of German tanks. If it had a Balkenkreuze on it they were gonna try and put a shell or 3 into it, whether or not it was a panzer III IV, or a Tiger. (especially at that point in the war, Tigers were very rare, and the Americans hadn't seen Panthers yet) I asked dad about paint, maintenance, that sort of thing. He told me there were no large stores of paint, at least not enough to paint a Tiger or several, anywhere near the front lines that could have been captured. He said they just didn't keep paint around period, yeah maybe the maintenance battalion, but not the front line units. He also told me he didn't "remember" ever seeing any German tanks painted in "our" colors. Does this mean it absolutely
couldn't have happened? No, but until some one produces concrete proof, ie. a good, clear, authentic photo, I'm sticking w no OD.
Best,
Mike
couldn't have happened? No, but until some one produces concrete proof, ie. a good, clear, authentic photo, I'm sticking w no OD.
Best,
Mike
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 07:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Guys, this topic has been discussed ad-nauseam here and elsewhere. I'll state up front, I'm in the camp that believes no OD repaint happened. My reasons, on top of what has been said by David and Gerald above, my dad was there. He was a tank driver in the U.S. 1st AD and fought at Kasserine, and afterwards til the campaign in North Africa was over. I talked to him about this very subject a few years before he passed away. Now, I will also say, veterans memories can often be faulty. Some things dad had in almost perfect clarity, his buddies, commanding officers, where he was on certain dates and/or times. Other things not so much, for instance identifying and differentiating between the varieties of German tanks. If it had a Balkenkreuze on it they were gonna try and put a shell or 3 into it, whether or not it was a panzer III IV, or a Tiger. (especially at that point in the war, Tigers were very rare, and the Americans hadn't seen Panthers yet) I asked dad about paint, maintenance, that sort of thing. He told me there were no large stores of paint, at least not enough to paint a Tiger or several, anywhere near the front lines that could have been captured. He said they just didn't keep paint around period, yeah maybe the maintenance battalion, but not the front line units. He also told me he didn't "remember" ever seeing any German tanks painted in "our" colors. Does this mean it absolutely
couldn't have happened? No, but until some one produces concrete proof, ie. a good, clear, authentic photo, I'm sticking w no OD.
Best,
Mike
I rest my case for the capture of US paint stocks as I mentioned above. Most combat units don't carry enough paint to make it worthwhile for the enemy to use to repaint. Trust me, it takes a lot of paint to make it worthwhile to repaint. My CAV Squadron in Germany needed at least two truckloads of a single shade of paint to cover the squadron in just one shade of paint-- and it doesn't make sense for the Germans to have wasted precious assets to repaint in the enemy's color at that period of the campaign.
VR, Russ
Byrden
Joined: July 12, 2005
KitMaker: 2,233 posts
Armorama: 2,221 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 07:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I personally find it difficult to believe enough stocks of US "olive drab" paint would have been that far forward at Kasserine Pass to have made it into German hands
Germany captured US equipment weeks before the battle of Kasserine Pass. This M3 was photographed on 20 January 1943 at the Karachoum Gap.
David
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