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Question: WWII European Railway Tunnel
All_You_Can_Kit
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Jakarta Raya, Indonesia
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 - 12:13 AM UTC
Hi fellas, I have a plan to make a railway tunnel as a part of my next WWII diorama project. The tunnel is near getting finished, but I have so many deep critics from several fellow modelers in another group forum related to the "U"-shaped tunnel design entrance as depicted below.







They said that in WWII era, generally in Europe, the tunnel entrance is not "U", but horseshoe-shaped. Need additional opinions/suggestions: Should I really modify the shape of such tunnel? Since I still want to represent correct form of such tunnel from WWII era in Europe... Thanks for and I deeply appreciate every positive & constructive comments posted.







Warm regards from Indonesia,


Garry
Vicious
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 - 12:45 AM UTC
I know well the tunnels in Switzerland in my hometown and in Italy and unfortunately at least the entry for most of the railway tunnels are horseshoe or semicircular, however, there are also U-shaped even if they are less frequent so if you are not doing a tunnel in particular can be good and if you make the facade in bricks or blocks of stone as they were usually still do in time to give it a more circular shape

Try to ask here too that maybe it's easier to get more answers

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewforum&forum_id=149&page=1&cid=
HermannB
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 - 12:45 AM UTC
Seems there was no big standardisation in the early years of railway.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahntunnel

I think that horseshoe-shaped tunnel entrances are more common after the war, but I m not really an expert.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 - 01:36 AM UTC
One thing you must keep in mind is the thickness of the "roof" above the tunnel. The thickness you have built is OK for a concrete "tunnel" but then the topside should be a building or a street/road. There can be thin-roofed tunnels where there is a danger of rocks falling down but then the entrance is more of an extended tube leading up to the "real" tunnel.
For a typical European tunnel I would suggest that the rock above the tunnel should be at least as thick as half the height of the opening. It is difficult to make a tunnel with a thin roof without the roof caving in so they would usually blast an open topped trench until the roof is thick enough to hold its own weight.

Some images to think about









A case of extended opening to protect against snow/ice/rocks/goats/mountaineers falling off the mountain


A US version of protection against falling rocks









If the rock is of good quality there is usually no need for reinforcements or lining.









Used to be a railroad here but it is long gone now






Tunnel on the left side has been replaced by an open cut, Graversfors south side, modern times


Graversfors south side


Graversfors north side


Somewhere in Abchazia


Somewhere in Abchazia


Switzerland


In Luxemburg ?


In France ?


In Italy



In France

A tunnel was only built if it was the cheapest alternative.
An open slit/trench is cheaper up to the point where the cost for removing rock is greater than the cost for tunneling through it.

/ Robin
All_You_Can_Kit
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 - 09:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Some images to think about



Very nice sample pictures of tunnel, indeed. Many thanks Robin. I will go with it soon, since adjustment of the construction will need much preparations and lots of time




Cheers


Garry
All_You_Can_Kit
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 - 09:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Seems there was no big standardisation in the early years of railway.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahntunnel

I think that horseshoe-shaped tunnel entrances are more common after the war, but I m not really an expert.



No problem, same with me, not too much expert with this. Just to make sure on how should I do, get it modified or go straight ahead. Very useful link reference anyway, I can see from a different perspective, many thanks Hans.





Cheers


Garry
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 - 01:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi fellas, I have a plan to make a railway tunnel as a part of my next WWII diorama project. The tunnel is near getting finished, but I have so many deep critics from several fellow modelers in another group forum related to the "U"-shaped tunnel design entrance as depicted below.







They said that in WWII era, generally in Europe, the tunnel entrance is not "U", but horseshoe-shaped. Need additional opinions/suggestions: Should I really modify the shape of such tunnel? Since I still want to represent correct form of such tunnel from WWII era in Europe... Thanks for and I deeply appreciate every positive & constructive comments posted.







Warm regards from Indonesia,


Garry


Just keep in mind that structurally, an arch transfers the weight of the rock above around its edge to the sides and downward. A flat section in the middle of an arch must bear the weight completely, and would be more likely to be reinforced concrete.
All_You_Can_Kit
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 - 04:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I know well the tunnels in Switzerland in my hometown and in Italy and unfortunately at least the entry for most of the railway tunnels are horseshoe or semicircular, however, there are also U-shaped even if they are less frequent so if you are not doing a tunnel in particular can be good and if you make the facade in bricks or blocks of stone as they were usually still do in time to give it a more circular shape

Try to ask here too that maybe it's easier to get more answers




Okay, most of the suggestion directs me to modify the entrance shape... I think it will be good and will be more representative. Many thanks for the suggestion mate, especially for the suggested link


Cheers,


Garry
HermannB
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Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 - 05:12 AM UTC
Googling brought some tunnel entrance faces in G railway gauge, a little bit larger than 1/35 scale, around 20 Euros here in Germany.

https://www.busch-model.info/modellbau/katalog/gelaende-landschaftsbau/tunnelportale/?p=1
All_You_Can_Kit
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Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 - 03:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Googling brought some tunnel entrance faces in G railway gauge, a little bit larger than 1/35 scale, around 20 Euros here in Germany.




Sorry for my very late reply and also many thanks for your information Hans. Meanwhile, I start try to learn about all addressed information above



Kind regards,


Garry
All_You_Can_Kit
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Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2018 - 03:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text


If the rock is of good quality there is usually no need for reinforcements or lining...

Tunnel on the left side has been replaced by an open cut, Graversfors south side, modern times...

In Italy...


In France...

A tunnel was only built if it was the cheapest alternative.
An open slit/trench is cheaper up to the point where the cost for removing rock is greater than the cost for tunneling through it.

/ Robin



Many thanks again for your updated post-reply, Robin! Really good photos to be reviewed as my resources!








Kind regards,


Garry
dcrfan
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Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 - 05:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I know well the tunnels in Switzerland in my hometown and in Italy and unfortunately at least the entry for most of the railway tunnels are horseshoe or semicircular, however, there are also U-shaped even if they are less frequent so if you are not doing a tunnel in particular can be good and if you make the facade in bricks or blocks of stone as they were usually still do in time to give it a more circular shape

Try to ask here too that maybe it's easier to get more answers




Okay, most of the suggestion directs me to modify the entrance shape... I think it will be good and will be more representative. Many thanks for the suggestion mate, especially for the suggested link


Cheers,


Garry



Not just the shape but also the depth of the ground above the tunnel as there must be a reason for digging a tunnel and not the cheaper option of digging a cutting.
drabslab
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Posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 - 03:23 AM UTC
Indeed, they were horseshoe shaped as already obvious from the pictures that others posted here.

In addition, and as an engineer, we would not make a tunnel under the circumstance that you are presenting here but an open contruction without roof.

The cost of removing the +/- 1 meter of soil above your tunnelroof is insignificant compared to the cost of making the tunnel roof.

 _GOTOTOP