Question: Does anyone know offhand what units were still equipped with remaining F1's after February 1943? Were any fielded at Kursk or on the Western Front at that late date? I am not interested in any vehicles stationed in North Africa.
Thanks.
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Pzkpfw IV Ausf F short gun
brekinapez
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 01:29 PM UTC
griffontech
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 02:24 PM UTC
From Encyclopedia of German armour of WWII:
"About 208 Ausf B to F1 were available with units in Russia when the summer offensive started in June 1942. This was reduced to 60 available on the entire Eastern front at the time of the offensive at Kursk in July 1943."
"About 208 Ausf B to F1 were available with units in Russia when the summer offensive started in June 1942. This was reduced to 60 available on the entire Eastern front at the time of the offensive at Kursk in July 1943."
brekinapez
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 02:30 PM UTC
I know that much, but I am really looking for specific panzer divisions that may have had F1's assigned to them. I want to mark my kit as something other than Dragon's standard "Unidentified Unit" nonsense.
Thanks, though.
Thanks, though.
Taeuss
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 02:43 PM UTC
Well you've got a challenge on your hands then as German daily Werkstatt reports usually weren't that specific; they would, for example, report 14 damaged Pz IVs but not which Ausf as that wasn't important at that level where they typically cannibalized other hulks to keep the rest rolling. The factory repair depots in Germany and other occupied countries might go into more detail as they were responsible for the more extensive repairs and overhauls; problem is they would automatically update the F1 into an F2 unless otherwise directed as all rebuilds were usually brought up to the latest Ausf specs. Again, admirable attempt but difficult search. Good luck and let us all know!
brekinapez
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 02:51 PM UTC
I knew it would be tough, but I am hoping there is a super nerd out there who has been compiling this sort of information, like I do with 1980's American Hardcore Punk bands who never went past local band status.
gishman32
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 04:30 PM UTC
Like Operation Ivy?
knewton
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 04:41 PM UTC
There is this image, https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panzer-iv-tank/panzer-iv-aus-f-with-schurzen-kursk-1943/, if you’re interested in oddities; otherwise, find an image and model that. You can be fairly sure that, given German propensity to field anything that fired, Ausf F (I really wish we as a modelling community would drop the “F1” and “F2” nomenclature, it’s just not accurate. F or G, simple) tanks were rolling around pass 1943. An Ausf D can been seen in Normandy 1944 after all.
Further, according to “Death of the Leaping Horseman, the 24th Panzer Division in Stalingrad”, they had 1 panzer kz [kurtz or short] operational as late as 31 October 1942, 16 non-operational due to lack of spares, and 3 write offs. So.... you could safely do an Ausf F as a 24th Panzer Division vehicle in 1943.
Does this make me that super nerd?
Further, according to “Death of the Leaping Horseman, the 24th Panzer Division in Stalingrad”, they had 1 panzer kz [kurtz or short] operational as late as 31 October 1942, 16 non-operational due to lack of spares, and 3 write offs. So.... you could safely do an Ausf F as a 24th Panzer Division vehicle in 1943.
Does this make me that super nerd?
MrCompletely
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 07:01 PM UTC
Are there not some fairly well-known pix of F kurtz's being used by Grossdeutchland at Kursk?
knewton
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 08:01 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Are there not some fairly well-known pix of F kurtz's being used by Grossdeutchland at Kursk?
Looking in “God, Honor, Fatherland” from RZM, there are only Lang panzer IV shown in the chapter on Kursk. Does someone else have a better source?
According to Dragon, 3 Pz Abt 21 of 20 Panzer Div had F tanks at Kursk in 1943. This is a decal option in one of their kits. Which is in my stash, and you’re welcome to the decals if you want. They consist of a three digit tactical number either side of the turret, and at the rear. Along with a small white elephant either side of the Rommelkiste.
d111298pw
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Posted: Monday, September 24, 2018 - 08:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
There is this image, https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/tanks-2-3/panzer-iv-tank/panzer-iv-aus-f-with-schurzen-kursk-1943/, if you’re interested in oddities; otherwise, find an image and model that. You can be fairly sure that, given German propensity to field anything that fired, Ausf F (I really wish we as a modelling community would drop the “F1” and “F2” nomenclature, it’s just not accurate. F or G, simple) tanks were rolling around pass 1943. An Ausf D can been seen in Normandy 1944 after all.
Further, according to “Death of the Leaping Horseman, the 24th Panzer Division in Stalingrad”, they had 1 panzer kz [kurtz or short] operational as late as 31 October 1942, 16 non-operational due to lack of spares, and 3 write offs. So.... you could safely do an Ausf F as a 24th Panzer Division vehicle in 1943.
Does this make me that super nerd?
The Panzer IV Ausf. F were 7 series/B.W. vehicles. The Ausf. G was an 8 series/B.W. vehicle. The designation "F2" was one of the official identifications for the long barreled version as of May 22, 1942. Reference Panzer Tracts 4, page 4-44.
Therefore, the use of "F1" and "F2" are both correct ways to identify the short and long barrel versions of the 7 series/B.W. vehicles.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 12:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Like Operation Ivy?
I don't really count them as a local band in that they did release an album and were generally known somewhat outside of California. I'm more in terms of bands that were lucky to put out a 7" or a cassette like Dispersion from Alabama, or the Headless Marines from Florida.
brekinapez
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 12:10 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAre there not some fairly well-known pix of F kurtz's being used by Grossdeutchland at Kursk?
Looking in “God, Honor, Fatherland” from RZM, there are only Lang panzer IV shown in the chapter on Kursk. Does someone else have a better source?
According to Dragon, 3 Pz Abt 21 of 20 Panzer Div had F tanks at Kursk in 1943. This is a decal option in one of their kits. Which is in my stash, and you’re welcome to the decals if you want. They consist of a three digit tactical number either side of the turret, and at the rear. Along with a small white elephant either side of the Rommelkiste.
That is actually the kit I am building. I was unsure about the markings as I was not able to verify them with the limited resources available to me.
brekinapez
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 12:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Does this make me that super nerd?
Well, unless someone comes along with anything more definitive you have the position locked in.
gishman32
Joined: August 10, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 02:29 AM UTC
Man, you catologue the Deeeep Cuts....I’m from Louisville so our punk/hard core bands are Squirrel Bait and Endpoint.
brekinapez
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 03:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Man, you catologue the Deeeep Cuts....I’m from Louisville so our punk/hard core bands are Squirrel Bait and Endpoint.
I know Squirrel Bait but not sure about Endpoint.
I actually have the track, "Hammering So Hard" on my phone.
griffontech
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 04:29 AM UTC
You might really have to go down the rabbit hole of internet searches to find what you are looking for. By that I mean googling each individual panzer division that was issued Pz IV's and see if you can find operational diaries, orders, etc. They MAY list individual battles, encounters, and unit equipment strengths on given days or months.
I did this and found some obscure references for 2nd Div in 1942 that listed Pz IV, but not what mark.
I think you can be pretty confident that if a certain unit had a relatively "large" stock of F1's at the end of 1942, they may have a couple laying about by the start of 1943.
I did this and found some obscure references for 2nd Div in 1942 that listed Pz IV, but not what mark.
I think you can be pretty confident that if a certain unit had a relatively "large" stock of F1's at the end of 1942, they may have a couple laying about by the start of 1943.
Taeuss
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 12:58 PM UTC
That photo of the Pz IV F1 with full Schurtzen at Kursk was a welcome sight to see. Thanks!
knewton
Joined: June 19, 2013
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 08:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The Panzer IV Ausf. F were 7 series/B.W. vehicles. The Ausf. G was an 8 series/B.W. vehicle. The designation "F2" was one of the official identifications for the long barreled version as of May 22, 1942. Reference Panzer Tracts 4, page 4-44.
Therefore, the use of "F1" and "F2" are both correct ways to identify the short and long barrel versions of the 7 series/B.W. vehicles.
Thank you, Mark; I stand corrected.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 - 10:10 PM UTC
There are some pictures around of short barrelled PzIVs in Normandy. They belonged to 21st Pz Div which was reformed in the West after going "into the bag" in Tunisia. Equipment shortages meant it was equipped with a real rag-tag and bobtail of vehicles including SP A/Tank guns made from French chassis adapted with German Pak40 guns and 105mm howitzers. Armoured half tracks were extemporised from French Citroen Kegresse chassis with armoured boxes on. In fact most of the weird unidentified armour used in Normandy belonged to this division.
The short barrelled PzIVs were in II/PzRegt22 and some were as old as Ausf B & C apparently. II/22 also contained some Somuas from 1940 presumably on the basis that any tank was better than no tank at all.(source: Eric Lefevre "Normandie 44").
The short barrelled PzIVs were in II/PzRegt22 and some were as old as Ausf B & C apparently. II/22 also contained some Somuas from 1940 presumably on the basis that any tank was better than no tank at all.(source: Eric Lefevre "Normandie 44").
brekinapez
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - 12:20 AM UTC
Thanks, Steve.
That will probably be the best answer for my purposes. I have leftover markings for that unit and it will combine with some other Normandy builds I've done.
That will probably be the best answer for my purposes. I have leftover markings for that unit and it will combine with some other Normandy builds I've done.
Bodeen
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Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 - 04:53 AM UTC
Human Sexual Response-Anne Frank Story. Yes they were known outside of New England. Great band. 
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