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Operation sea lion amphibious equipment ?
GregCopplin
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 212 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2019 - 02:05 PM UTC
I know the Germans were going to use a variety of barges/boats/ ships to assault the English beaches. My question is woul it be plausible that they would use little sturmboots to ferry troops from transport ships/ heavier barges to the beach? I was thinking of getting a few DML 1/35 sturmboots and doing a diorama with them in the near future. What’s everyones take on this?
PzDave
Joined: November 28, 2012
KitMaker: 319 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2019 - 02:20 PM UTC
Not to pour cold water on your model idea. But i don't think they were ever going to really invade. They could not control the air. And if they ever did launch the invasion the entire English Home Fleet was coming out to attack them. Compare the Home Fleet Order of Battle to what the German Navy had. Hitler was making the Russians think he was planning this to lull the Russians to think they were not going to invade Russia.
I know these comments are out of the realm of modeling but we do model history.
I know these comments are out of the realm of modeling but we do model history.
GregCopplin
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 212 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2019 - 02:25 PM UTC
No worries , but what if dios are still fun, since paper panzers seem to be the new hotness i figured a what if wouldn’t hurt. I’ve read one book on the subject and have “we march against England” in my library sitting on deck to read next. I figured it’d be a fun diorama. I do believe that germanys objective was always Russia but the invasion was in deed a legitimate idea it just wasn’t well thought out. Man stein goes over this is his memoirs and it is plausible that it could of been done but the luftwaffee couldn’t achieve air superiority. It would have been interesting to see what the home fleet would’ve done to a German invasion force or if the minefields would of held up the home fleet.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2019 - 07:23 PM UTC
Though they did not achieve air superiority, they did build up for an amphibious assault. I am not sure of the troop or equipment details.
RLlockie
Joined: September 06, 2013
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2019 - 08:56 PM UTC
As noted, there was no real enthusiasm for an amphibious assault from those who would have to execute it (and Hitler vacillated greatly on the subject) but if it had been launched, the advance guard would probably have headed for the beaches in Sturmboote, having transferred offshore from ships.
How many would have reached the beach and survived is a separate issue.
How many would have reached the beach and survived is a separate issue.
GregCopplin
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 212 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2019 - 10:22 PM UTC
To my understanding there was a heavy emphasis on the use of airborne forces and the Brandenburg commandos to neutralize coastal defenses and to capture a few harbors in tact so only a wave or two would be needed to assault the beaches and establish a beachhead.
griffontech
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 237 posts
Armorama: 231 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 01:42 AM UTC
We model history, but we also model:
-for fun
-what-if vehicles
-paper Panzers
-Sci-Fi
-tanks that were used, but what I-would-have-painted-it-or stowed-on-it-if-I-was-the-tank-commander vehicles
-etc...etc
Greg,
Go for it and have fun. Even if it wasn't a full-blown invasion the German's could have planned a Dieppe style raid along the south coast.
-for fun
-what-if vehicles
-paper Panzers
-Sci-Fi
-tanks that were used, but what I-would-have-painted-it-or stowed-on-it-if-I-was-the-tank-commander vehicles
-etc...etc
Greg,
Go for it and have fun. Even if it wasn't a full-blown invasion the German's could have planned a Dieppe style raid along the south coast.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 02:22 AM UTC
There were any number of river crossings during World War II that a diorama of would be indistinguishable from a Sealion diorama. Beaches and shores were similar enough in 1/35 on several sandy river banks that it looked just like a beach landing.
The only difference would be the plaque on the base.
The Germans collected and built various barges, many of which were later used for the sea evacuations of various ports in the face of Russian advances in 1945.
Do a sturmbotte ferrying civilians with a crew of Kriegsmarine infantry.
The only difference would be the plaque on the base.
The Germans collected and built various barges, many of which were later used for the sea evacuations of various ports in the face of Russian advances in 1945.
Do a sturmbotte ferrying civilians with a crew of Kriegsmarine infantry.
GregCopplin
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 212 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 03:06 AM UTC
I’m just collecting thoughts for this diorama. I like the suggestion of an evacuation as well, possibly another dio to do. I like this time in history cause there are so many what ifs. I have another idea for using a vickers attacking fallschirmjager that are holding a road near an un names wnglish town.
27-1025
Joined: September 16, 2004
KitMaker: 1,281 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 03:11 AM UTC
I’d imagine maybe the sturmboats carrying assault engineers in the first wave to the beach followed up with the bigger barges and regular troops.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 03:19 AM UTC
Launched from ships? What ships? The Germans were assembling barges from all over Europe because that's all they had. I'm highly skeptical they had enough transports to launch Sturmboote. If they had control of the air, they would have ferried the troops across from the Calais area.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 03:40 AM UTC
They must have been planning some kind of amphibious assault since they constructed and tested Tauchpanzers ...
The LandWasserSchlepper was also included in the planning ...
The LandWasserSchlepper was also included in the planning ...
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 04:03 AM UTC
Some food for thoughts (just zoom on the page to ease reading - dark blue background should be a no-no...) :
http://www.coleshillhouse.com/the-threat-from-germany-operation-sealion.php
H.P.
http://www.coleshillhouse.com/the-threat-from-germany-operation-sealion.php
H.P.
griffontech
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 237 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 04:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Launched from ships? What ships? The Germans were assembling barges from all over Europe because that's all they had. I'm highly skeptical they had enough transports to launch Sturmboote. If they had control of the air, they would have ferried the troops across from the Calais area.
If it's a small raiding party concept, such as Dieppe, any number of confiscated or "borrowed" and converted cruise / cargo ships from Spain, France, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Poland, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Greece, Argentina and Brazil (come on, we all know they were kinda friendly to the Germans...) would be use.
If this is a what-if (and a very plausible one Gregory) you can sell the idea. Expand the thinking of why they would raid England? Instead of a complete invasion of the UK, they could just do a recce in force to destroy the coastal radar defence stations in order to ease pressure on the Luftwaffe as they conducted bombing. Add in some small fast vehicles for transport and fire support: Kubelwagons or better yet Schwimwagons! Maybe a Kettengrad to tow some small AT or field guns. Panzer I's and II's. All these could easily be fitted onto small barges.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 04:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
All these could easily be fitted onto small barges.
H.P.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 05:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I’m just collecting thoughts for this diorama. I like the suggestion of an evacuation as well, possibly another dio to do. I like this time in history cause there are so many what ifs. I have another idea for using a vickers attacking fallschirmjager that are holding a road near an un names wnglish town.
Again, there were plenty of time Vickers guns attacked or defended against fallschirmjaeger from Crete to Italy to France and later.
Don't get me wrong I do what-ifs but real crazy ones like a 1960 Panther II or a Confederate army license built Valentine modification. Or the Kesselring raid:Graf Zeppelin with a deck of modified Ju-88 to raid New York.
Nearly anything put in a what-if diorama unless really exotic(like a Nazi base in Antarctica) will mirror something that actually happened.
griffontech
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 237 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 05:17 AM UTC
Frenchy comes through again.
Awesome pics.
Now I wanna build a dio...
Awesome pics.
Now I wanna build a dio...
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 06:50 AM UTC
I really don't have a "dog in this fight" so to speak, since I don't do much Axis modeling. But we should all keep in mind that the Germans were planning an Invasion, and gathering the materials to do so. And, some of those materials were used in an "invasion" of sorts elswhere -- in the Mediterranean during the movement of the Afrika Korps to Libya, where the Royal Navy was unable to effectively intervene (at first). So in reality, although it wasn't a truly amphibious operation, the Germans (along with their Italian allies) were able to move troops and equipment ashore effectively, across distances greater than the Channel.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
GregCopplin
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 212 posts
Armorama: 201 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 07:54 AM UTC
Those pictures are great. Fortunately/unfortunately for me it seems like each babe was unique in its own way and that there wasn’t a set way for each one to be built. So i could kinda wing it when it comes to barges. Also didn’t the Germans invade Norway using troops hidden in transport like ships?
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 08:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Fortunately/unfortunately for me it seems like each babe was unique in its own way and that there wasn’t a set way for each one to be built.
The three pics I've posted show a Pionierlandungsboot 39 a.k.a. Pilabo 39, like this one :
A 1/35th scale kit has been released by Schatton Modellbau :
https://www.panzer-bau.de/dioramen-1-35/schiffsdioramen-1-35/pionierlandungsboot-39/
Looks like only two 1:1 ones were available in 1940 :
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=194689
H.P.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 08:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Those pictures are great. Fortunately/unfortunately for me it seems like each babe was unique in its own way and that there wasn’t a set way for each one to be built. So i could kinda wing it when it comes to barges. Also didn’t the Germans invade Norway using troops hidden in transport like ships?
They used some ordinary freighters. A largish freighter is less conspicuous than a passenger ship of similar troop capacity, especially in small harbours.
I may have confused things but I think that one ship entered a Danish harbour the day before the invasion and tied up along a quay.
GregCopplin
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 212 posts
Armorama: 201 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 08:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextFortunately/unfortunately for me it seems like each babe was unique in its own way and that there wasn’t a set way for each one to be built.
The three pics I've posted show a Pionierlandungsboot 39 a.k.a. Pilabo 39, like this one :
A 1/35th scale kit has been released by Schatton Modellbau :
https://www.panzer-bau.de/dioramen-1-35/schiffsdioramen-1-35/pionierlandungsboot-39/
Looks like only two 1:1 ones were available in 1940 :
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=194689
H.P.
This is awesome i think I’m gonna have to find this and get it.
As for freighters your correct i believe it was a freighter or two that troops were stored on.
callmehobbes
Joined: April 17, 2005
KitMaker: 751 posts
Armorama: 740 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 09:36 AM UTC
This is worth a listen:
http://thehistorynetwork.org/operation-sea-lion-the-invasion-of-britain/
http://thehistorynetwork.org/operation-sea-lion-the-invasion-of-britain/
GregCopplin
Joined: September 06, 2011
KitMaker: 212 posts
Armorama: 201 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 10:26 AM UTC
I’m gonna listen to that in a few minutes i have his book and heard it was good.
Pongo_Arm
Joined: January 27, 2017
KitMaker: 147 posts
Armorama: 147 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 - 11:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I really don't have a "dog in this fight" so to speak, since I don't do much Axis modeling. But we should all keep in mind that the Germans were planning an Invasion, and gathering the materials to do so. And, some of those materials were used in an "invasion" of sorts elswhere -- in the Mediterranean during the movement of the Afrika Korps to Libya, where the Royal Navy was unable to effectively intervene (at first). So in reality, although it wasn't a truly amphibious operation, the Germans (along with their Italian allies) were able to move troops and equipment ashore effectively, across distances greater than the Channel.
VR, Russ
Um, the German and Italian transport efforts were decimated by minuscule RAF and RN forces from Malta. It is one of the defining facts of that whole campaign.
The extremely unlikely fact of a German invasion of Britain with the Royal Navy largely intact does not invalidate the study of what a section of that landing might have looked like. At least to me. They certainly planned enough and practiced enough that it can be surmised.
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