So they use their DS in a toy and it leaves an oily possibly toxic residue and a bunch of brittle pieces? Explanations to the child safety people and retailer charge backs? Will they pay attention to the larger toy market with bits that get all gooey?
Or does this disease only affect uncoated DS?
I had the same melting with ancient Italeri. That was back in the 1970s and they fixed it by going to the super stiff stuff. Now they're introducing a softer vinyl that glues with super glue and accepts model paint.
When it comes to vinyl it can be a trade off between stiffness and longevity.
I'm glad someone mentioned 1/6 as vinyl disintegration has been a terror for collections. Any "leather like" vinyl only lasts a decade before the coating flakes off the under lying fabric. Messy but I've lost a lot of great irreplaceable pieces like that.
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
I simply love DS-tracks from Dragon
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 03:29 AM UTC
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 03:30 AM UTC
8 kits with Pz III chassis + 7 kits with Pz IV chassis = 15 kits where I need/want to replace the DS-tracks. Three of these can use the narrower tracks made by Miniart (cheaper)
One or two could get Ostketten (Riich, cheaper than Friul metal tracks)
The other ten will need metal tracks made by Friul.
Haven't counted the Tamiya Pz III/IV kits yet ...
Shermans and other types of tanks will be less costly since there are more styrene track sets (cheaper) out there.
/ Robin
One or two could get Ostketten (Riich, cheaper than Friul metal tracks)
The other ten will need metal tracks made by Friul.
Haven't counted the Tamiya Pz III/IV kits yet ...
Shermans and other types of tanks will be less costly since there are more styrene track sets (cheaper) out there.
/ Robin
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 03:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextBob,
It's no surprise to me that chemistry is likely to blame for this; I binned an old Italeri kit because the vinyl tires ate into two sprues under them. Really you see this in other plastic/vinyl products over time as well, as they all eventually break down. You can't be hard and flexible at the same time without paying a price.
Go hard
or
Go bust
/ Robin
I was hoping that the complaining about the "DS Tracks" could be "put to bed", but I see that that is not going to happen.
FOUR WHOLE PAGES OF RAMBLING BELLY-ACHING!!!
If you guys have problems with "DS Tracks", FIX THE PROBLEMS BY BUYING SOME A/M TRACKS, FOR PETE'S SAKES!!!
That's not the solution. The problem is that Dragon knows there is a problem with DS, they should fix the problem, replace the parts or stop using DS in any of their kits. So if a DS non-track part, say a wheel, turns to crap where are you going to find a replacement wheel? Or as another posted the Dragon Apollo/Soyuz? Where are you going to find AM parts for that? Why should you have to fork over MORE money to replace a defective part when, as has been noted, Dragon knows there is an issue yet still foists this stuff on loyal customers?
You guys STILL don't get it... DRAGON HAS changed the CHEMISTRY. You guys which have the "DS Tracks" that are disintegrating, or WHATEVER, have the tracks that were manufactured with the junky chemistry BEFORE DRAGON "corrected" the problem. As I've said INNUMERABLE TIMES, DRAGON ISN'T going to "fix" ANYTHING, NOW. They ARE NOT going to replace "DS ANYTHING". Maybe they take some of the stuff home with them when they're done with their work day and eat it for dinner or as a snack at midnight. IT DOESN'T MATTER TO DRAGON & Company. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO READ YOUR COMPLAINTS, and even if they did, they would probably press "print" on their computers' keyboards, and then they would either EAT the printouts of your complaints or do something "Private" with them in the Company Rest Rooms...
What! Do you think that DRAGON is going to send you a new model, gratis? At the absolute best, they MIGHT send you a new set of tracks. These, will be... "DS Tracks"... Look, they don't even know you're ALIVE... Nor do they care...
The "murder" is a done deal. "DS" is HERE TO STAY... It's AFTER THE FACT...
GET AFTER-MARKET TRACKS...
That's your best and only REAL solution...
NOW, there are FIVE pages devoted to this TEDIOUS SUBJECT...
VERY WELL:
MORE "PROPER" & "CORRECT" WWII US/ALLIED SUBJECTS- That means ALL-NEW M10s, M36s, M18 TDs, WOVERINES AND an ALL-NEW PLASTIC M8 HMC. MORE GIs AND TOMMIES, AUSSIES AND KIWIS!!! WAAAAHHH!!!
Versteh? Compris? Capisce? Get it???
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 03:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextBob,
It's no surprise to me that chemistry is likely to blame for this; I binned an old Italeri kit because the vinyl tires ate into two sprues under them. Really you see this in other plastic/vinyl products over time as well, as they all eventually break down. You can't be hard and flexible at the same time without paying a price.
Go hard
or
Go bust
I was hoping that the complaining about the "DS Tracks" could be "put to bed", but I see that that is not going to happen.
FOUR WHOLE PAGES OF RAMBLING BELLY-ACHING!!!
If you guys have problems with "DS Tracks", FIX THE PROBLEMS BY BUYING SOME A/M TRACKS, FOR PETE'S SAKES!!!
That's not the solution. The problem is that Dragon knows there is a problem with DS, they should fix the problem, replace the parts or stop using DS in any of their kits. So if a DS non-track part, say a wheel, turns to crap where are you going to find a replacement wheel? Or as another posted the Dragon Apollo/Soyuz? Where are you going to find AM parts for that? Why should you have to fork over MORE money to replace a defective part when, as has been noted, Dragon knows there is an issue yet still foists this stuff on loyal customers?
You guys STILL don't get it... DRAGON HAS changed the CHEMISTRY. You guys which have the "DS Tracks" that are disintegrating, or WHATEVER, have the tracks that were manufactured with the junky chemistry BEFORE DRAGON "corrected" the problem. As I've said INNUMERABLE TIMES, DRAGON ISN'T going to "fix" ANYTHING, NOW. They ARE NOT going to replace "DS ANYTHING". Maybe they take some of the stuff home with them when they're done with their work day and eat it for dinner or as a snack at midnight. IT DOESN'T MATTER TO DRAGON & Company. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO READ YOUR COMPLAINTS, and even if they did, they would probably press "print" on their computers, and then they would either EAT them or do something "Private" with them in the Company Rest Rooms...
The "murder" is a done deal. "DS" is HERE TO STAY... It's AFTER THE FACT...
GET AFTER-MARKET TRACKS...
That's your best and only REAL solution...
Dennis, I don't think you understand the depth of the issue. As long as DS is around, there will ALWAYS be a QC issue with it. It's an unproven formula, that must be mixed and cured properly. This goes for any kit DS is included in. I understand you think all track products need to be replaced with polystyrene or metal tracks (and I agree with you). But the point of this thread is there are many who have been deceived by the "promise" of DS. And Dragon continues to deceive by including it. They say they have "corrected the problem", but who's to say it won't happen again? And it's chance that you won't get DS problems in your next Dragon kit, since kits don't just disappear off shelves. There are also many DS items for which there is no aftermarket replacement. So, it's not that we "don't get it", it's that we are raising a collective voice to either skip the next Dragon kit, or the hope they will listen (by the way, they do get it-- their sales reps do report failing sales and kit issues). When it becomes painful, they will change. Their inclusion of Magic tracks in their last Sherman release is an acknowledgement DS is a failure).
So this Forum is just another way of "getting the word out".
VR, Russ
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 04:01 AM UTC
Stephen,
Here's an answer to your thoughts about the Dragon "toy lines". When we were dealing with Dragon USA at the LHS I worked at, the sales rep (who was based in the US by Dragon) told us the toy line was more lucrative in Asia. And since we were experiencing many complaints about DS in the hobby market at the time, when we asked the very question you brought up (because we carried many items of the Dragon toy line too), we were told "toys are are considered expendable because their useful life is limited by play and age, so longevity of DS is not a big concern in that market".
VR, Russ
Here's an answer to your thoughts about the Dragon "toy lines". When we were dealing with Dragon USA at the LHS I worked at, the sales rep (who was based in the US by Dragon) told us the toy line was more lucrative in Asia. And since we were experiencing many complaints about DS in the hobby market at the time, when we asked the very question you brought up (because we carried many items of the Dragon toy line too), we were told "toys are are considered expendable because their useful life is limited by play and age, so longevity of DS is not a big concern in that market".
VR, Russ
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 04:10 AM UTC
1) Anyone saying "just go buy a replacement part" is, IMHO, missing the point entirely. NOBODY here is saying that people CANNOT go buy AM tracks, tires, or other bits IF THEY WANT TO. That is your choice. And NOBODY HERE DOUBTS that buying AM parts is their CHOICE. The POINT here is that Dragon is selling a crappy product that may potentially destroy a kit in a box or, worse, destroy a completed build on the shelf. It's a chemical time-bomb, and the kit-maker KNOWS this. It would be great if folks who feel that you can just go buy a replacement, "so hang it up already!" would actually ADDRESS the ISSUE instead of telling people to stop complaining about their pain and suffering.
2) While this thread has held on for 4 pages... The POINT could stand MANY MORE PAGES of REAL examples. People pointing out that their DS tracks have died are adding valuable testimony. So, IF you actually hope to see something done, KEEP SHOUTING! One raised voice seldom garners any remedial reaction at all, no matter how valid that one victim's complaint is. Politicians and companies selling crappy products LOVE folks who shut up and duck their heads. As long as people remain silent, just "man up and suck up the crap and go buy AM REPLACEMENTS for DEFECTIVE bits" without saying anything, NOTHING will be heard by the mfgr, and the mfgr will never do anything to FIX the problem.
3) There are those who keep saying that Dragon doesn't care and so won't do anything. Yes, you may well be right. You DON'T, however, actually KNOW THIS. It's your OPINION and rationalization about what a mfgr MAY or MAY NOT do. Saying that the mfgr doesn't care about its customers has NOTHING to do with actually identifying that there IS, or could well be, a problem with that mfgr's products - one which CAN BE FIXED. Again, politicians and mfgr's knowingly selling faulty products LOVE you! They LOVE folks who proclaim that nothing will get done - if THAT voice is loud enough, politicians and companies feel that they have shelter and DON'T HAVE TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE.
The POINT, I THINK, of this thread, as raised by Robin N., is to bring up the FACT that folks are having problems with DS parts in boxed kits - a rather dismaying and costly problem for those who might have those kits. We have clearly documented here numerous and rather different failure experiences and have surely helped clarify for all readers that there really IS some PROBLEM with the DS products.
Aside from providing a forum for folks to air their opinions about the DS ISSUE and about what to do (or not), this forum / thread could serve a better purpose: IF ENOUGH people get on and share their REAL experiences with DS, we MAY actually get to be LOUD ENOUGH to actually be heard by Dragon. That, friends, is our ONLY USEFUL outcome from this thread.
IF you even HOPE to get the DS ISSUE addressed by the mfgr... SPEAK UP and be heard! I would LOVE to see something done!
Cheers! Bob
2) While this thread has held on for 4 pages... The POINT could stand MANY MORE PAGES of REAL examples. People pointing out that their DS tracks have died are adding valuable testimony. So, IF you actually hope to see something done, KEEP SHOUTING! One raised voice seldom garners any remedial reaction at all, no matter how valid that one victim's complaint is. Politicians and companies selling crappy products LOVE folks who shut up and duck their heads. As long as people remain silent, just "man up and suck up the crap and go buy AM REPLACEMENTS for DEFECTIVE bits" without saying anything, NOTHING will be heard by the mfgr, and the mfgr will never do anything to FIX the problem.
3) There are those who keep saying that Dragon doesn't care and so won't do anything. Yes, you may well be right. You DON'T, however, actually KNOW THIS. It's your OPINION and rationalization about what a mfgr MAY or MAY NOT do. Saying that the mfgr doesn't care about its customers has NOTHING to do with actually identifying that there IS, or could well be, a problem with that mfgr's products - one which CAN BE FIXED. Again, politicians and mfgr's knowingly selling faulty products LOVE you! They LOVE folks who proclaim that nothing will get done - if THAT voice is loud enough, politicians and companies feel that they have shelter and DON'T HAVE TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE.
The POINT, I THINK, of this thread, as raised by Robin N., is to bring up the FACT that folks are having problems with DS parts in boxed kits - a rather dismaying and costly problem for those who might have those kits. We have clearly documented here numerous and rather different failure experiences and have surely helped clarify for all readers that there really IS some PROBLEM with the DS products.
Aside from providing a forum for folks to air their opinions about the DS ISSUE and about what to do (or not), this forum / thread could serve a better purpose: IF ENOUGH people get on and share their REAL experiences with DS, we MAY actually get to be LOUD ENOUGH to actually be heard by Dragon. That, friends, is our ONLY USEFUL outcome from this thread.
IF you even HOPE to get the DS ISSUE addressed by the mfgr... SPEAK UP and be heard! I would LOVE to see something done!
Cheers! Bob
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 04:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Stephen,
Here's an answer to your thoughts about the Dragon "toy lines". When we were dealing with Dragon USA at the LHS I worked at, the sales rep (who was Chinese and based in the US by Dragon) told us the toy line was more lucrative in Asia. And since we were experiencing many complaints about DS in the hobby market at the time, when we asked the very question you brought up (because we carried many items of the Dragon toy line items too), we were told "toys are are considered expendable because their useful life is limited by play and age, so longevity of DS is not a big concern in that market".
VR, Russ
In certain parts of Asia they don't have consumer advocacy or safety concerns that Europe and the U.S. have. How many times have there been stories about toxic junk coming in from China? Stuff they can sell to their people but get busted when trying to export?
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 04:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextBob,
It's no surprise to me that chemistry is likely to blame for this; I binned an old Italeri kit because the vinyl tires ate into two sprues under them. Really you see this in other plastic/vinyl products over time as well, as they all eventually break down. You can't be hard and flexible at the same time without paying a price.
Go hard
or
Go bust
I was hoping that the complaining about the "DS Tracks" could be "put to bed", but I see that that is not going to happen.
FOUR WHOLE PAGES OF RAMBLING BELLY-ACHING!!!
If you guys have problems with "DS Tracks", FIX THE PROBLEMS BY BUYING SOME A/M TRACKS, FOR PETE'S SAKES!!!
That's not the solution. The problem is that Dragon knows there is a problem with DS, they should fix the problem, replace the parts or stop using DS in any of their kits. So if a DS non-track part, say a wheel, turns to crap where are you going to find a replacement wheel? Or as another posted the Dragon Apollo/Soyuz? Where are you going to find AM parts for that? Why should you have to fork over MORE money to replace a defective part when, as has been noted, Dragon knows there is an issue yet still foists this stuff on loyal customers?
You guys STILL don't get it... DRAGON HAS changed the CHEMISTRY. You guys which have the "DS Tracks" that are disintegrating, or WHATEVER, have the tracks that were manufactured with the junky chemistry BEFORE DRAGON "corrected" the problem. As I've said INNUMERABLE TIMES, DRAGON ISN'T going to "fix" ANYTHING, NOW. They ARE NOT going to replace "DS ANYTHING". Maybe they take some of the stuff home with them when they're done with their work day and eat it for dinner or as a snack at midnight. IT DOESN'T MATTER TO DRAGON & Company. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO READ YOUR COMPLAINTS, and even if they did, they would probably press "print" on their computers, and then they would either EAT them or do something "Private" with them in the Company Rest Rooms...
The "murder" is a done deal. "DS" is HERE TO STAY... It's AFTER THE FACT...
GET AFTER-MARKET TRACKS...
That's your best and only REAL solution...
Dennis, I don't think you understand the depth of the issue. As long as DS is around, there will ALWAYS be a QC issue with it. It's an unproven formula, that must be mixed and cured properly. This goes for any kit DS is included in. I understand you think all track products need to be replaced with polystyrene or metal tracks (and I agree with you). But the point of this thread is there are many who have been deceived by the "promise" of DS. And Dragon continues to deceive by including it. They say they have "corrected the problem", but who's to say it won't happen again? And it's chance that you won't get DS problems in your next Dragon kit, since kits don't just disappear off shelves. There are also many DS items for which there is no aftermarket replacement. So, it's not that we "don't get it", it's that we are raising a collective voice to either skip the next Dragon kit, or the hope they will listen (by the way, they do get it-- their sales reps do report failing sales and kit issues). When it becomes painful, they will change. Their inclusion of Magic tracks in their last Sherman release is an acknowledgement DS is a failure).
So this Forum is just another way of "getting the word out".
VR, Russ
Aw gee, Russ... I understand the problems with DRAGON perfectly, and I understand your, and the other fellas' concerns. Laying out a hefty chunk of change for a model kit these days is NO picnic, ESPECIALLY when said model kits contain defective or potentially-defective components. As to financial "ramifications" resulting from modelers not buying DRAGON model kits:
Those guys at DRAGON wouldn't even FEEL a drastic drop in their model-lines' sales; they're PRIMARILY a TOY manufacturer, just as TAMIYA is. The BIG difference is that TAMIYA at least makes an effort to junk stuff that doesn't work.
"Getting the word out" to DRAGON is going to fall on DEAF EARS... How many decades have orgs such Greenpeace been trying "to get the word out" to mainly Asian and certain Eastern European Nations over their environmental "transgressions"..?
So far, not a SINGLE PEEP out of all of you guys that hate the "DS Tracks" TO DRAGON. I have seen NOTHING from you guys as making any kind of an effort to contact DRAGON "en masse", else I would have joined you by adding my name to the effort...
So, THERE THE "PROBLEM" RESTS, like the proverbial "Bump On A LOG"...
All right, look- I UNDERSTAND what you're saying, but they have a different mind-set than we do "over there"... The "Baby Formula" flap some years ago had much more serious ramifications- babies died, and certain "bosses" were put to death because it was a huge "embarrassment" to the manufacturers. But no one is DYING because of faulty, (read: "sh*tty") "DS Tracks". Ergo, DRAGON, I repeat, DRAGON isn't going TO DO ANYTHING.
I can empathize with modelers who have had "bad luck" with "DS Tracks"; I haven't... YET... I know what it's like to special order a model-product, and upon opening the box, finding the resin components broken to smitherines. Upon contacting the maker, who shall remain nameless, I was told that the parts were "kaput" because of "shipping irregularities" and that they weren't going to replace the parts or reimburse me, less shipping costs! Imagine my ire!!! Suffice it to say, they no longer received my custom, not that I was a big buyer of theirs in the first place...
As far as DRAGON is concerned, they DO make some awesome products- But when I buy one of their WWII German "Tracked" vehicles, I figure-in what my total cash-outlay in the kit itself, PE and/or extra resin or multi-media "upgrades", and YES, AFTER-MARKET TRACKS is going to cost me when all is said and done. Simple as that. No headaches, no "wailing or gnashing of teeth"...
Now, do you guys REALLY NEED to keep aggravating yourselves over a lousy set of Tracks..?
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 04:50 AM UTC
I do wish they would have kept their 1/35 Star Wars promise. I could use a 1/35 AT-AT for my collection.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 05:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
...
Now, do you guys REALLY NEED to keep aggravating yourselves over a lousy set of Tracks..?
Dennis: If I know there is an armed robber waiting for his victims around the corner into a dark alley what do you suggest I should do about it?
1. Walk away since I think that others can take care of themselves?
2. Call the cops? They might be busy or even getting bribed by the robber.
3. Stand at the mouth of the alley warning others not to go in there?
4. Try and talk to the robber and explain the errors of his ways to him and that he might possibly face a penalty?
What I am trying to do with this thread is number 3: Warn others about the possible dangers of the the DS-crap.
I have no illusions whatsoever that I might convince Dragon to give up on the DS-crap (i.e. the equivalent of nr 4).
Dragon most likely could not care less about my opinion, they probably don't give a d*mn about the fact that I might warn off a few other kit buyers.
You are already aware of the DS-crap and already know that you may need to add another $25 or $30 for the aftermarket tracks. Many others have not learned this yet. Those are the people I am trying to reach.
When the choice stands between lots-n-lots of fiddly bits or good looking gluable single piece DS-tracks then it is easy to fall for the DS-tracks. They are easier to use ...
If I can add in the DS-falls-apart into the decision making than I might have done something good after all (even if Dragon could not care less).
If I can say to myself that I managed to warn off a few victims and prevented them from suffering from the DS-tracks than I will be happy.
If you don't like to hear/read the whining and complaining about DS-tracks then there are plenty of other threads to read
I must say that I am a bit surprised by the amount of interest raised by my original post
I have been hoping that Miniart might venture further into the lands of Pz III/IV-tracks after they did the narrow ones.
Hope hasn't died yet ....
/ Robin
P.S. I also hope for some of the US stuff that hasn't been made or hasn't been made well yet, just as long as they don't come with DS-tracks
PanzerKarl
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 05:55 AM UTC
I only buy second hand Dragon kits now then I can choose the ones with no DS,plus the fact I can buy Takom or RFM kit with full interior for the same price as a Dragon kit.
Garrand
Joined: October 27, 2009
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 194 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 07:58 AM UTC
I have to say, I check my DS tracks periodically, so far so good, no disintegrations...
For those suggesting that Dragon should switch back to Magic Tracks or Link & Length, all I can say is you can't please everyone all of the time. I actually like rubber band tracks for tanks that have live tracks, so if Dragon included Magic tracks for their Shermans...I might just not buy it (or buy rubber bands off Ebay or from Asuka). But for tanks that have sag? I'd much prefer workables. Glue-together tracks complicates painting to a great extent IMHO. Some of you have your techniques, but the one I use simply makes painting a pain. So yes, rubber bands or workables for me, thanks...
Damon.
For those suggesting that Dragon should switch back to Magic Tracks or Link & Length, all I can say is you can't please everyone all of the time. I actually like rubber band tracks for tanks that have live tracks, so if Dragon included Magic tracks for their Shermans...I might just not buy it (or buy rubber bands off Ebay or from Asuka). But for tanks that have sag? I'd much prefer workables. Glue-together tracks complicates painting to a great extent IMHO. Some of you have your techniques, but the one I use simply makes painting a pain. So yes, rubber bands or workables for me, thanks...
Damon.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 10:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Stephen,
Here's an answer to your thoughts about the Dragon "toy lines". When we were dealing with Dragon USA at the LHS I worked at, the sales rep (who was based in the US by Dragon) told us the toy line was more lucrative in Asia. And since we were experiencing many complaints about DS in the hobby market at the time, when we asked the very question you brought up (because we carried many items of the Dragon toy line too), we were told "toys are are considered expendable because their useful life is limited by play and age, so longevity of DS is not a big concern in that market".
VR, Russ
You realize that is complete spin and sales bull manure?
Sales reps always have a song and dance like that and I just smile and nod because they know it's full of it and my knowing nod tells them that I know it.
But then sometimes they are merely repeating the line someone fed them because it's CYA and bottom line and just how big is my commission?
Now back to the tracks--
HEY GUYS! The main kits to have DS were the Sherman's-- and now Dragon is re-releasing them with link and length tracks as well as using them in their M113 kits.
Maybe they did realize the mess DS caused in some circles and are slowly backing away. Not so fast to admit any error or goof, but hedging their bets so to speak.
So sudden turn around so they don't lose face, but a very slow pivot. And don't let the sales staff know so they have plausible deniability.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 11:40 AM UTC
I view the chances of DML doing anything about DS tracks - regardless of how many examples are given, web pages written, facebook posts made, or complaints received - as nil.
And I don't really care that they aren't going to do anything. The presence of DS tracks is just something else to factor into the value/buying decision. The buyer should simply estimate how much a track replacement will cost or how much future failure risk he is willing to absorb and adjust the price he is willing to pay accordingly. Yet another life experience that just comes down to money.
"But I already have a kit with DS tracks!"
"My model is already built!"
Bummer. You lost. That's what happens sometimes. Fortunately we are only talking about luxury toys and not anything important to life.
This is not a new issue. On this site alone there are posts going back about 4-1/2 years. While people may ask about DS tracks every month or so, There's no real imperative to "raise awareness", either with consumers or DML. I think the primary purpose of the statements on here is to make people feel better about their losses. Other than that it's hard to see what good they can realistically do.
KL
And I don't really care that they aren't going to do anything. The presence of DS tracks is just something else to factor into the value/buying decision. The buyer should simply estimate how much a track replacement will cost or how much future failure risk he is willing to absorb and adjust the price he is willing to pay accordingly. Yet another life experience that just comes down to money.
"But I already have a kit with DS tracks!"
"My model is already built!"
Bummer. You lost. That's what happens sometimes. Fortunately we are only talking about luxury toys and not anything important to life.
This is not a new issue. On this site alone there are posts going back about 4-1/2 years. While people may ask about DS tracks every month or so, There's no real imperative to "raise awareness", either with consumers or DML. I think the primary purpose of the statements on here is to make people feel better about their losses. Other than that it's hard to see what good they can realistically do.
KL
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 11:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I have to say, I check my DS tracks periodically, so far so good, no disintegrations...
For those suggesting that Dragon should switch back to Magic Tracks or Link & Length, all I can say is you can't please everyone all of the time. I actually like rubber band tracks for tanks that have live tracks, so if Dragon included Magic tracks for their Shermans...I might just not buy it (or buy rubber bands off Ebay or from Asuka). But for tanks that have sag? I'd much prefer workables. Glue-together tracks complicates painting to a great extent IMHO. Some of you have your techniques, but the one I use simply makes painting a pain. So yes, rubber bands or workables for me, thanks...
Damon.
Checking the condition of the stash is probably the easiest and cheapest thing one can do if one already owns some kits with the DS parts. And I am sincerely happy for you that your DS parts don't appear to be going bad yet. And I think it's IMPORTANT that others "hear" that some folks actually do look and have not found any catastrophe in progress. It's the LOOKING that clues others into what they can actually do RIGHT NOW. All power to ya!
But please do tell... What, exactly (or even in general), does your (or ANYONE's) preference for one track format - band, links, l-and-l, molded hard 1-piece, etc. - over another have to do with the discussion about the apparent ills of Dragon's DS?
You like bands. OK. I like links. So what? The thread's real issue is about the DS material, NOT the format it comes in. IF Dragon's links came in DS, I wouldn't buy them. IF I DID LIKE BAND TRACKS, however... I would much PREFER to buy a kit whose band tracks were NOT chemical time-bombs waiting to dissolve.
I hear folks saying that they will buy kits KNOWING that the kits have suspect DS parts - AND that they PLAN on getting new, AM parts in every case, so the DS issue really doesn't matter to them.
But I don't see ANYONE saying that they 1) want to buy a kit and build it OOTB using the supplied parts, AND 2) they don't mind if the supplied parts may actually suddenly go catastrophically bad.
Do I WANT Dragon to STOP making band tracks? For G*D's sake, NO! They are free to make and sell whatever track FORMAT they think sells best to their customers. And if that's band tracks, OK. I am free to buy the kit KNOWING that I am getting bands, and I AM FREE to go buy AM links if I want. What I WANT Dragon to do is stop selling DS to unsuspecting consumers while saying "Caveat Emptor" (let the buyer beware). The D can make 1-piece tracks out of other, safer stuff.
@ Kurt: This thread and its information likely provide little value to those who buy kits with a PLAN from the get-go to "upgrade" the tracks w/ AM sets.
I doubt that it provides any value to those who simply don't buy kits w/ band tracks because they don't like kits w/ band tracks.
I don't think it offers much help nor hope to those who have already bought kits w/ DS bands in them, nor to those who have built kits using DS tracks, beyond encouraging folks to check their stuff. We cannot undo history.
It does, however, provide A LOT OF VALUE to ALL who MAY consider buying such a DS band-track kit IN THE FUTURE. Or so I THINK. FUTURE kit - buyers now stand better-informed about the potential risks of this DS material, and can make better-informed buying decisions.
There is no need for anger about it. No need for strident claims and unsupported opinions about what kit-makers will or will not do. And no need to try and shut people down for telling their experiences about DS products and their reactions to that threat.
Of course, that last paragraph is wholly MY OPINION!
Cheers! Bob
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 11:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text...
Now, do you guys REALLY NEED to keep aggravating yourselves over a lousy set of Tracks..?
Dennis: If I know there is an armed robber waiting for his victims around the corner into a dark alley what do you suggest I should do about it?
1. Walk away since I think that others can take care of themselves?
2. Call the cops? They might be busy or even getting bribed by the robber.
3. Stand at the mouth of the alley warning others not to go in there?
4. Try and talk to the robber and explain the errors of his ways to him and that he might possibly face a penalty?
What I am trying to do with this thread is number 3: Warn others about the possible dangers of the the DS-crap.
I have no illusions whatsoever that I might convince Dragon to give up on the DS-crap (i.e. the equivalent of nr 4).
Dragon most likely could not care less about my opinion, they probably don't give a d*mn about the fact that I might warn off a few other kit buyers.
You are already aware of the DS-crap and already know that you may need to add another $25 or $30 for the aftermarket tracks. Many others have not learned this yet. Those are the people I am trying to reach.
When the choice stands between lots-n-lots of fiddly bits or good looking gluable single piece DS-tracks then it is easy to fall for the DS-tracks. They are easier to use ...
If I can add in the DS-falls-apart into the decision making than I might have done something good after all (even if Dragon could not care less).
If I can say to myself that I managed to warn off a few victims and prevented them from suffering from the DS-tracks than I will be happy.
If you don't like to hear/read the whining and complaining about DS-tracks then there are plenty of other threads to read
I must say that I am a bit surprised by the amount of interest raised by my original post
I have been hoping that Miniart might venture further into the lands of Pz III/IV-tracks after they did the narrow ones.
Hope hasn't died yet ....
/ Robin
P.S. I also hope for some of the US stuff that hasn't been made or hasn't been made well yet, just as long as they don't come with DS-tracks
I like your joke about the "DS Tracks" not being included in the (future?) new US/Allied stuff which will never be produced, anyway...
Just for the record, DRAGON IS NOT including "armed robbers" in their model kits. Too costly...
Your "caveat" regarding "DS Tracks is well taken by EVERYONE who has said ANYTHING in this thread, make no mistake...
However, don't you think that over the years, that most of the guys who have been involved in this thread have already been aware of, and have already had unfavorable experiences with how SHI*TTY the "DS Tracks" are/have been..? The general lousiness of "DS Tracks" was already a raging debate on this site back when I first signed on in 2013...
How many times can one "flog a dead horse"???
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
KitMaker: 279 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 12:03 PM UTC
I think it is more fundamental than that. They are selling what purports to be a complete product and accordingly it is perfectly reasonable for the purchaser to assume that they will be able to build a model as advertised, without the necessity of buying aftermarket parts By way of example, reputable manufacturers such as Tamiya state on the Kit box if Zimmeritt is required separately to complete the model as shown. If the purchaser CHOOSES to purchase aftermarket parts then that is a matter of choice rather than necessity. Failure to do so in my opinion means that the goods are not of merchantable quality and they should be rejected. Unfortunately I was unaware of this problem when I purchased the kit new some 6 months ago, and therefore it is probably too late to reject it but in the UK the contract is with the retailer and if there was a steady rejection of kits that may be sufficient for the retailers to put pressure on Dragon or at least their importer.
errains
#045
Joined: September 23, 2005
KitMaker: 362 posts
Armorama: 350 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 12:17 PM UTC
Good Lord this thread/discussion is nothing less than a total waste of time, energy and effort. No new information has been given on a subject that has been beaten beyond death and Dragon is not going to do a darn thing to correct what some of you think that needs correcting.
120+ (117..my bad)comments and over 7k views....Just think if you all spent the time you wasted here on actually working on a build you might actually finishing something.
Stop your complaining and get your butt back to the bench and try to remember why your in this hobby to begin with...for F.U.N!!!
Its only little bit of plastic
That's five minutes of my life I'll never get back...Thanks!
120+ (117..my bad)comments and over 7k views....Just think if you all spent the time you wasted here on actually working on a build you might actually finishing something.
Stop your complaining and get your butt back to the bench and try to remember why your in this hobby to begin with...for F.U.N!!!
Its only little bit of plastic
That's five minutes of my life I'll never get back...Thanks!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 12:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I think it is more fundamental than that. They are selling what purports to be a complete product and accordingly it is perfectly reasonable for the purchaser to assume that they will be able to build a model as advertised, without the necessity of buying aftermarket parts By way of example, reputable manufacturers such as Tamiya state on the Kit box if Zimmeritt is required separately to complete the model as shown. If the purchaser CHOOSES to purchase aftermarket parts then that is a matter of choice rather than necessity. Failure to do so in my opinion means that the goods are not of merchantable quality and they should be rejected. Unfortunately I was unaware of this problem when I purchased the kit new some 6 months ago, and therefore it is probably too late to reject it but in the UK the contract is with the retailer and if there was a steady rejection of kits that may be sufficient for the retailers to put pressure on Dragon or at least their importer.
Your points are well taken, as are Robin's.
However, HOW MANY retailers are actually going to complain to DRAGON about "DS Tracks"..? These retailers do not only sell DRAGON kits which include "DS Tracks". Many of them don't even know what "DS Tracks are...
You fellows ALL need to broaden your horizons. We SERIOUS Armor modelers are MERELY A MINISCULE NICHE in the relatively small model-building market. There are people who only build different kinds of cars, different kinds of trucks, ("lorries", for our British Friends,) different kinds of airplanes, ships, monsters, STAR WARS stuff, STAR TREK stuff, Napoleonic figurines, nudes, "horses and hoops and garters and hogsheads of real fire", (with apologies to Lennon and McCartney), and the list virtually goes on, ad infinitum. Many of us modelers are not solely hamstrung into the 1/35 military modelers' segment of the market. As for myself, I build, detail and paint all kinds of things. Primarily, I'm a 1/48 aircraft-builder, figure-painter and I also collect, build and FABRICATE HO brass Steam-era locomotives and trains. The 1/35-world is NOT ALL THERE IS...
Then, too, there are the TOY and Radio-controlled aircraft/model car segments, the articulated Super Hero toys, dolls, articulated monsters and a whole other-world full of a bunch of plastic CRAP that none of us would even care to give a casual glance. THIS stuff is the "lion's share" of the market that seems to be the Toy/Model Giants' "bread and butter"... "DS Tracks..? Please...
Taking ALL of the above into account, do ANY of you REALLY think that DRAGON would listen to a comparatively microscopic number of disgruntled modelers or an even SMALLER number of slightly-miffed retailers..? The RETAILERS are TOO DAMNED BUSY with trying to run their businesses without "going under" to care about some disintegrated tracks. THIS is why I said that you guys need to broaden your horizons. You've been stuck in your little worlds of paint and glue fumes.
RETAILERS contacting DRAGON??? I mean REALLY???
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 01:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextStephen,
Here's an answer to your thoughts about the Dragon "toy lines". When we were dealing with Dragon USA at the LHS I worked at, the sales rep (who was based in the US by Dragon) told us the toy line was more lucrative in Asia. And since we were experiencing many complaints about DS in the hobby market at the time, when we asked the very question you brought up (because we carried many items of the Dragon toy line too), we were told "toys are are considered expendable because their useful life is limited by play and age, so longevity of DS is not a big concern in that market".
VR, Russ
You realize that is complete spin and sales bull manure?
Sales reps always have a song and dance like that and I just smile and nod because they know it's full of it and my knowing nod tells them that I know it.
But then sometimes they are merely repeating the line someone fed them because it's CYA and bottom line and just how big is my commission?
Now back to the tracks--
HEY GUYS! The main kits to have DS were the Sherman's-- and now Dragon is re-releasing them with link and length tracks as well as using them in their M113 kits.
Maybe they did realize the mess DS caused in some circles and are slowly backing away. Not so fast to admit any error or goof, but hedging their bets so to speak.
So sudden turn around so they don't lose face, but a very slow pivot. And don't let the sales staff know so they have plausible deniability.
Stephen-- I wouldn't call it BS when a letter was sent out from Dragon. We were a Dragon Distributor (even shipping Dragon Kits to China for Pete's sake!?!)we also received a letter as far back as late 2012. In it they announced they were going to concentrate on the toy line. And it's pretty obvious they have. We had a pretty good relationship with Dragon US, speaking to them daily, and had over 4,000 Dragon kits stocked in our warehouse.
VR, Russ
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 03:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Good Lord this thread/discussion is nothing less than a total waste of time, energy and effort. No new information has been given on a subject that has been beaten beyond death and Dragon is not going to do a darn thing to correct what some of you think that needs correcting.
If only one or 2 folks read any part of this thread and then stopped and looked at their stash or builds to see if the DS parts were OK or..., ANYONE who read any of this is now maybe more aware of the risks as they consider buying a kit with DS in it and may be thinking more about their next purchase(s)...
You should ask those people how much of a "waste of time" they think this is!
Dragon may never do anything about this. Despite the strident assertions of some, NOBODY here KNOWS whether they will or won't. The asserters are just voicing their OPINIONS. While hope springs eternal, I'm sure that few here actually think that Dragon WILL do anything. But we can hope! However, trying to get the D to do something is not really the main point of this thread...
So... I KNOW why I keep reading and posting in this thread... I am interested in the DS issue, in how wide-spread it really is and how it has and will effect modelers, and I am VERY interested in HELPING FELLOW MODELERS to actually enjoy and have more FUN in their hobby by doing what I can to help them become more informed about DS and its problems - being and getting more informed is to empower people and give them tools to make better decisions. ALL GOOD.
Being as YOU claim this discussion to be a "total waste of time, energy, and effort"... WHY are YOU spending your valuable time and effort reading and POSTING in it?
Cheers! Bob
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 06:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Good Lord this thread/discussion is nothing less than a total waste of time, energy and effort. No new information has been given on a subject that has been beaten beyond death and Dragon is not going to do a darn thing to correct what some of you think that needs correcting.
120+ (117..my bad)comments and over 7k views....Just think if you all spent the time you wasted here on actually working on a build you might actually finishing something.
Stop your complaining and get your butt back to the bench and try to remember why your in this hobby to begin with...for F.U.N!!!
Its only little bit of plastic
That's five minutes of my life I'll never get back...Thanks!
You're Welcome
Sergas
Joined: April 13, 2017
KitMaker: 51 posts
Armorama: 37 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 06:57 PM UTC
-Conspiracy theory:
Dragon has a secret contract with Fruil-Model. They know that the costumer doesn't like DS Tracks. They also know that the majority will go and buy AM Tracks! Win Win for both......
I dont know what goes on at Dragons HQ. Back in the day, you had everything you could ask for: Magi Tracks, Metal gun barrel, lots of Photo Etch and so on. Today Dragon releases kits that have half of the "goodies", but they charge the same price or more
I build one Dragon Tiger from my local Hobby Shop for 110(!)$ with DS Tracks. They still look fine, but who knows for how long. As many already said here: Buy the Dragon kits on ebay. They usually cost a lot less and most of them come with extra Magic Tracks.
Some people here said: "Just don't buy Dragon Kits.... that's the only way they will learn"
Yea, that wont work. For every person that stops buying Dragon, there are probably 2-3 more that don't care and keep buying them.
cheers
David
Dragon has a secret contract with Fruil-Model. They know that the costumer doesn't like DS Tracks. They also know that the majority will go and buy AM Tracks! Win Win for both......
I dont know what goes on at Dragons HQ. Back in the day, you had everything you could ask for: Magi Tracks, Metal gun barrel, lots of Photo Etch and so on. Today Dragon releases kits that have half of the "goodies", but they charge the same price or more
I build one Dragon Tiger from my local Hobby Shop for 110(!)$ with DS Tracks. They still look fine, but who knows for how long. As many already said here: Buy the Dragon kits on ebay. They usually cost a lot less and most of them come with extra Magic Tracks.
Some people here said: "Just don't buy Dragon Kits.... that's the only way they will learn"
Yea, that wont work. For every person that stops buying Dragon, there are probably 2-3 more that don't care and keep buying them.
cheers
David
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 07:29 PM UTC
[quote]-Conspiracy theory:
Dragon has a secret contract with Fruil-Model. They know that the costumer doesn't like DS Tracks. They also know that the majority will go and buy AM Tracks! Win Win for both...... [quote]
You may be onto something, David!
[quote]I dont know what goes on at Dragons HQ. [quote]
Ditto for me! And most likely NOBODY else posting in this thread does, either! But some stridently claim that they actually DO!
[quote] As many already said here: Buy the Dragon kits on ebay. They usually cost a lot less and most of them come with extra Magic Tracks.[quote]
That does work for some of the newer D kits. Of course, one can always also simply RECOGNIZE that buying a Dragon kit which has DS parts in it does involve some greater risk, and being forewarned about that DS risk, make a more-informed purchase decision.
[quote]For every person that stops buying Dragon, there are probably 2-3 more that don't care and keep buying them.[quote]
You, Sir, appear to hold your fellow modelers in really poor regard, if you actually believe that!
Despite the continued love for D professed by many, I can't really equate D's kits with something like heroin! Sadly, there is no hypodermic emoticon! "Just say NO!" actually does work, when it comes to model kits! (Or so I think!)
Cheers! Bob
Dragon has a secret contract with Fruil-Model. They know that the costumer doesn't like DS Tracks. They also know that the majority will go and buy AM Tracks! Win Win for both......
[quote]You may be onto something, David!
[quote]I dont know what goes on at Dragons HQ. [quote]
Ditto for me! And most likely NOBODY else posting in this thread does, either! But some stridently claim that they actually DO!
[quote] As many already said here: Buy the Dragon kits on ebay. They usually cost a lot less and most of them come with extra Magic Tracks.[quote]
That does work for some of the newer D kits. Of course, one can always also simply RECOGNIZE that buying a Dragon kit which has DS parts in it does involve some greater risk, and being forewarned about that DS risk, make a more-informed purchase decision.
[quote]For every person that stops buying Dragon, there are probably 2-3 more that don't care and keep buying them.[quote]
You, Sir, appear to hold your fellow modelers in really poor regard, if you actually believe that!
Despite the continued love for D professed by many, I can't really equate D's kits with something like heroin! Sadly, there is no hypodermic emoticon! "Just say NO!" actually does work, when it comes to model kits! (Or so I think!)
Cheers! Bob
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, March 25, 2019 - 08:28 PM UTC
I read Sun Tzu as have some in Dragon's headquarters. I know human nature and can put myself solidly into another's shoes and see things as he does.
And frankly I have been more often right in my cynicism than wrong and its left me jaded and difficult to get along with.
We may not have a crystal ball but a little imagination and careful reading of actions and statements and you can extrapolate something not far from the truth.
Frankly as has been said, we've been here before in the hobby and soft plastic accessory bits. Or even toys and figures of soft material that oozes and then breaks up.
I recently came across a bunch of 45 year old Airfix 1/76 figures that just crumbled away in my fingers. Remember when tracks were held with rubber bands in the bottom of a box? And you'd open the box and the rubber band would crumble away but some bits were somehow fused with the tracks?
More of man's March of folly. We try to reinvent the wheel and are somehow amazed and frustrated that it still comes out round.
I find speculation and imagination entertaining and enlightening but then I'm twisted that way. Don't worry I take my meds.
Oh and one big reason the thread is five pages long is because everyone quotes and replies. So we have these immensely long quotations of previous posts for a sentence or two of new comments. Cut out all the quotations and the thread is only half or even a third as long.
And frankly I have been more often right in my cynicism than wrong and its left me jaded and difficult to get along with.
We may not have a crystal ball but a little imagination and careful reading of actions and statements and you can extrapolate something not far from the truth.
Frankly as has been said, we've been here before in the hobby and soft plastic accessory bits. Or even toys and figures of soft material that oozes and then breaks up.
I recently came across a bunch of 45 year old Airfix 1/76 figures that just crumbled away in my fingers. Remember when tracks were held with rubber bands in the bottom of a box? And you'd open the box and the rubber band would crumble away but some bits were somehow fused with the tracks?
More of man's March of folly. We try to reinvent the wheel and are somehow amazed and frustrated that it still comes out round.
I find speculation and imagination entertaining and enlightening but then I'm twisted that way. Don't worry I take my meds.
Oh and one big reason the thread is five pages long is because everyone quotes and replies. So we have these immensely long quotations of previous posts for a sentence or two of new comments. Cut out all the quotations and the thread is only half or even a third as long.
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