Greetings all, ...wonder if i could get some help.
I need to know, if it is available, the color scheme and markings that were on the Panther that was blasted by the Pershing in front of the Cologne Cathedral.
Im toying with the idea of doing a diorama of the said subject...which reminds me..i think i need the markings for the Pershing too..
So if anyone could help..Id appreciate it.
Thank you.
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Cologne Panther
VenomOrca
Joined: June 20, 2003
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Posted: Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:04 PM UTC
ericadeane
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Posted: Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:14 PM UTC
Kar98K
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Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 02:17 AM UTC
I have seen 2 or 3 shows on the history channel and the show film of the panther after it has been knocked out. I think one was about the push into Germany and teh other about the pershing can't remember what the third is about though.
Romanowski
Joined: August 11, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 03:02 AM UTC
I doubt there are any good photos of the "Köln Panther" that'll show you the camo that was used. The only known footage of it before it's destruction is a bit shaky (understandable given the cameraman's position close to the action). After it was knocked out plenty of pics have been taken, but unfortunately all paint had then been burned of the tank. I haven't even been able to identify it's number, as it seems the turret numbers were covered with spare tracklinks.
Kar98K
Joined: January 15, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 06:10 AM UTC
Romanowski you are right. Maybe you could make your dio with the panther on fire and have the flames cover the tank number or have it burnt and have the pershing in teh backround with the crew looking at thier kill.
VenomOrca
Joined: June 20, 2003
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 03:10 PM UTC
Well from all the pics ive seen of the Panther, I cant nail down its color scheme. All the pics Ive seen are Black and white, and that does me no good
I guess I could just wing it,...then lo and behold Ill get an IPMS judge hovering around saying it is totally wrong...
Artistic licence eh..so be it
I guess I could just wing it,...then lo and behold Ill get an IPMS judge hovering around saying it is totally wrong...
Artistic licence eh..so be it
TheRedBaron
Joined: July 23, 2004
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Posted: Friday, August 20, 2004 - 05:56 PM UTC
I have been involved on several topics on other forums about this PAnther.
Many believe that the pictures are faked and the PAnther was already taken out by a bazooka round when the Pershing was filmed shooting at it. Which seems fairly likely.
Still good pics and it would make a nice dio! As for colour scheme I would have thought Olive grun sprayed over dunkel gelb would be the most likely...
Many believe that the pictures are faked and the PAnther was already taken out by a bazooka round when the Pershing was filmed shooting at it. Which seems fairly likely.
Still good pics and it would make a nice dio! As for colour scheme I would have thought Olive grun sprayed over dunkel gelb would be the most likely...
USArmy2534
Joined: January 28, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 12:23 PM UTC
Maybe even putting a cameraman in one of the buildings or having a cameraman/photographer taking pictures infront of the Panther (obviously keeping his distance though because of the fuel and ammo - I remember the footage of that thing really burning).
Romanowski
Joined: August 11, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 05:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I have been involved on several topics on other forums about this PAnther.
Many believe that the pictures are faked and the PAnther was already taken out by a bazooka round when the Pershing was filmed shooting at it. Which seems fairly likely.
Still good pics and it would make a nice dio! As for colour scheme I would have thought Olive grun sprayed over dunkel gelb would be the most likely...
Please post some links to these discussion, as I am very doubtful this is faked.
rolf
Joined: August 17, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 10:41 PM UTC
I highly doubt that this was faked. What idiots would sit in a Panther with German Tanker Uniforms on and let a Pershing pump three shells into her and then try to get out. All of this for the camera. There are several written accounts about this incedent from those that participated. It is real.
Romanowski
Joined: August 11, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 11:07 PM UTC
I agree with you Roy.
The lack of response is also makes me wonder if those discussions really took place....
The lack of response is also makes me wonder if those discussions really took place....
Kar98K
Joined: January 15, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 05:23 AM UTC
I am 100% positive that the pershing really did knock out that panther. I don't think the allies needed much more propoganda any way the were already into Germany.
Romanowski
Joined: August 11, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 05:54 AM UTC
In the case the Panther had already been damaged by a bazooka round (just for argument's sake), there would have been no more crew in it.
Any AFV crew that has it's vehicle immobilized with the enemy within a few hundred yards (as they knew the Americans were, they had after all only seconds before knocked out an M4A1) would abandon the vehicle in no time. After all, tanks can be replaced, trained crew can't, and even if they didn't think of this logical doctrine, they must have been scared as hell, as anybody would be. They would not just sit around and wait for the inevitable.
The notion of putting actors in a tank so it'll look good while getting shot at is too silly to be taken seriously, as pointed out earlier.
The footage of the Sherman getting knocked out, and most of it's crew becoming casualties, and then the destruction of the Panther that did this, is some of the most gutwrenching and dramatic footage of WW2 on the western front. I have zero doubt the footage is authentic.
By the way, for the original poster, I have a number of pics of this engagement. I'd be happy to mail them to you. You can reach me at [email protected]
Any AFV crew that has it's vehicle immobilized with the enemy within a few hundred yards (as they knew the Americans were, they had after all only seconds before knocked out an M4A1) would abandon the vehicle in no time. After all, tanks can be replaced, trained crew can't, and even if they didn't think of this logical doctrine, they must have been scared as hell, as anybody would be. They would not just sit around and wait for the inevitable.
The notion of putting actors in a tank so it'll look good while getting shot at is too silly to be taken seriously, as pointed out earlier.
The footage of the Sherman getting knocked out, and most of it's crew becoming casualties, and then the destruction of the Panther that did this, is some of the most gutwrenching and dramatic footage of WW2 on the western front. I have zero doubt the footage is authentic.
By the way, for the original poster, I have a number of pics of this engagement. I'd be happy to mail them to you. You can reach me at [email protected]
Capt-Caveman
Joined: August 16, 2003
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 06:12 AM UTC
the footage is real, so is the gunner of the Sherman that was knocked out by the panther, and he realy did get his leg blown off from the real shell that was fired from the real Panther
the cameramen are Tech/3 Leon Rosenberg and Tech/4 James Bates
its all in a "After the Battle" magazine number 104 Battle for Cologne
heres a colour photo of the real Panther
the cameramen are Tech/3 Leon Rosenberg and Tech/4 James Bates
its all in a "After the Battle" magazine number 104 Battle for Cologne
heres a colour photo of the real Panther
TheRedBaron
Joined: July 23, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 08:40 AM UTC
My apologies for not answering you guys earlier...
although i like the 'I wonder if the discussions took place' comment, really mature. Why would I bother making it up... Please!
I never stated I agreed with the discussions, I was merely passing on what was said. I have only stills of the action concerned. The chance of the Panther being imobilised by a bazooke round is likely and then the coup de grace from the Pershing is also likely.
No need to get angry and defensive over a Yank Tank.
By the way I will try to find the forum it was discussed on.
although i like the 'I wonder if the discussions took place' comment, really mature. Why would I bother making it up... Please!
I never stated I agreed with the discussions, I was merely passing on what was said. I have only stills of the action concerned. The chance of the Panther being imobilised by a bazooke round is likely and then the coup de grace from the Pershing is also likely.
No need to get angry and defensive over a Yank Tank.
By the way I will try to find the forum it was discussed on.
Capt-Caveman
Joined: August 16, 2003
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:59 AM UTC
heres a site with an interview with the cameraman Jim Bates and the Pershing crew member Cpl. Clarence Smoyer
http://home.earthlink.net/~crcorbin/Cologne.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~crcorbin/Cologne.html
salt6
Joined: February 17, 2002
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:19 AM UTC
I think I hve the footage at home. I post it if anyone is interested when i get back.
KFMagee
Joined: January 08, 2002
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 10:28 AM UTC
I read a piece on this scene in the Encyclopedia of WWII. An interview was done with one of the tank members (Smoyer?). In it he states that unlike the Panther which had to stop for dead-on accuracy, the M26 had a gyrostabelizer that allowed it to fire while on the full run. The story stated the panther commander probably assumed he could turn his turrent and make dead-on fire on the M26 because the M26 was still moving at high speed as it came around a corner. He was trying to adjust the turrent position when the M26 slammed in two rounds into the German tank, which never go off a single shot.
mossieramm
Joined: September 17, 2003
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 02:16 PM UTC
Hi, there is a good photo of the Koln Panther in Squadron Panther in Action, on the last page. It’s not to clear as to the camouflage but the damage to the panther is clearer than on most photos. 
Romanowski
Joined: August 11, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 02:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
1)My apologies for not answering you guys earlier...
although i like the 'I wonder if the discussions took place' comment, really mature. Why would I bother making it up... Please!
2)I never stated I agreed with the discussions, I was merely passing on what was said. I have only stills of the action concerned. The chance of the Panther being imobilised by a bazooke round is likely and then the coup de grace from the Pershing is also likely.
No need to get angry and defensive over a Yank Tank.
3)By the way I will try to find the forum it was discussed on.
1)Maturity has nothing to do with this. Read any of my other posts on other threads, and you will find that I try to be as informative and helpful as possible.
Problem with the internet is the anonimity, and a plethora of people posting things like "I read this, and therefore it is like that", without any means to verify this.
What your motivation would be to make something up, I don't know. But plenty of people try to sell off an unsubstantiated opinion as though it were gospel by using imaginary reference. Hence my rather sceptical reaction.
2)You did however pretty much give us the impression that you agreed with it.
As explained above, the chances of the Panther being immobilised are almost nihil. Crew would have jumped ship ASAP. Good example is the Bovington Tiger, which was abandoned by it's crew while it had sustained no damage at all.
3)That would be most helpful.
Drader
Joined: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:41 PM UTC
Bovington's Tiger was definitely damaged before the crew abandoned. A 6pdr AP round glanced off the turret and through the roof of the driver's compartment. The damage is still there today.
There are pictures of the damage on the restoration log on Bovington's website, annoyingly I can't remember which page exactly.
There are pictures of the damage on the restoration log on Bovington's website, annoyingly I can't remember which page exactly.
barron
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 666 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:22 PM UTC
The Panther at koln was used to engaging shermans because it knew it had to fire on the halt. The germans didn't knpw the pershing had a stab system on it they thought it had to halt also to fire. I guess they were suprised when the 90mm rounds came slaming through the tank. And I don't think that it was faked either. Combat camara men put them selves in harms way all the time to get the best footage. Like the other guy said , what idots would stay in a tank and let another tank shoot at them like this. It seems that some people or groups are always trying to ruin history by trying to find lies in it!
Romanowski
Joined: August 11, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2004 - 09:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Bovington's Tiger was definitely damaged before the crew abandoned. A 6pdr AP round glanced off the turret and through the roof of the driver's compartment. The damage is still there today.
There are pictures of the damage on the restoration log on Bovington's website, annoyingly I can't remember which page exactly.
When I say damaged, I mean that something was actually broken, which wasn't the case. The armour was not fully penetrated, and all systems were functioning perfectly (except for a temporarily jammed turret).
Which actually proves my point even further. A tank with a jammed turret is far more lethal than an immobile tank, as it can still be used in the same way as a Stug. An immobile tank is just waiting to get shot.
Most, if not all, crews would jump ship at the first sign of trouble. Hell, even Wittmann abandoned his ride when it got immobilised at VB.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 12:21 PM UTC
I just examined the pic in Panther in Action. There appears to be a German AFV style fire extinguisher resting against the spare tracks on the left side of the turret (which is facing forward, and directly above the hull MGer's hatch). Since the extinguisher (if this is what it is) is un-stowed, it most likely has been used by the escaping crew. This may give some credability to the original story.
Stormreaver
Joined: August 27, 2004
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Posted: Friday, August 27, 2004 - 10:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Some post by Jay Wijnhold/Romanowski
To all except "solidjay" Jay (i.e. Romanowski): Sorry for doing this here, but I needed to get through with this. The guy was absent, did not send the goods and never responded to any e-mail once payment was sent in a deal we agreed on a few months ago...
To Jay: You still owe me €70 worth of figures since our deal in February! Contact me at [email protected]!! (FYI, I have filed a Mail Fraud complaint with the authorities)
-- Stormreaver/Niclas Ivarsson --
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