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AFV club Tiger
PanzerKarl
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 09:00 AM UTC
http://www.luckymodel.com/scale.aspx?item_no=AF%2035079 Anyone seen this new Tiger from AFV club.It has lots of extras,grills and metal gun barrel.looks like a good buy?but am not up to date on AFV club kits.
Teacher
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
Armorama: 3,679 posts
Posted: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 09:18 AM UTC
Hi Karl, from what I gathered when I looked at both kits, the AFV one is more expensive and you don't get all those lovely 'goodies' that come with the Dragon one. Then again, I'm also a fan of individual links and I think the AFV 'rubber band' is a step backwards. The hull deck is mostly moulded as one piece and in my opinion doesn't look as crisp as the Dragon offering. Although AFV have also used sliding mould technology to produce the muzzle breaks etc. they don't include things such as choice of early or late towing shackles in metal. I honestly think the other main kit manufacturers are playing catch-up with Dragon at present, and they have a way to go.
Vinnie
Vinnie
jet
Joined: December 30, 2002
KitMaker: 306 posts
Armorama: 295 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 02:27 AM UTC
Since the kit is not out isn't it a little presumptuous to say whether the AFV kit is any better/worse than the DML at this point?
I fear you may have a bias sir. I for one believe, that even though the AFV kit may not have as many bells and whistles, it may prove, considering both companies previous release record, to be more accurate in detail and execution. Which for me, is what is a more desirable priority. The few extra bucks are worth it. I do own the DML Initial from Dragon and looking at the contents in the box it does look like a very nice kit,( building ist may show some issues???) But I also feel there is no need to say the other(AFV) is no good, specailly without seeing it and building it.
AFV Club at VLS $38.50
DML at VLS $31.95
I fear you may have a bias sir. I for one believe, that even though the AFV kit may not have as many bells and whistles, it may prove, considering both companies previous release record, to be more accurate in detail and execution. Which for me, is what is a more desirable priority. The few extra bucks are worth it. I do own the DML Initial from Dragon and looking at the contents in the box it does look like a very nice kit,( building ist may show some issues???) But I also feel there is no need to say the other(AFV) is no good, specailly without seeing it and building it.
AFV Club at VLS $38.50
DML at VLS $31.95
Teacher
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
Armorama: 3,679 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 03:17 AM UTC
First of all.....'Jet'?
One doesn't need to hold it in your hands to hold the opinions I have expressed....It is a matter of record what AFV have said is going to be in the box. Secondly, I have built the DML Tiger and, no, there are not any issues there, accuracy-wise or any other way. It's difficult to see how AFV can produce a more accurate Tiger, since no major flaws have been found with the DML one, and anyway, AFV are no strangers to producing inaccurate models themselves.
Lastly, I think 'tis you harbouring said bias. Since nobody has said the AFV Tiger will be no good. In fact, YOU are the first one to use that expression in this thread.
Vinnie
One doesn't need to hold it in your hands to hold the opinions I have expressed....It is a matter of record what AFV have said is going to be in the box. Secondly, I have built the DML Tiger and, no, there are not any issues there, accuracy-wise or any other way. It's difficult to see how AFV can produce a more accurate Tiger, since no major flaws have been found with the DML one, and anyway, AFV are no strangers to producing inaccurate models themselves.
Lastly, I think 'tis you harbouring said bias. Since nobody has said the AFV Tiger will be no good. In fact, YOU are the first one to use that expression in this thread.
Vinnie
SEDimmick
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 05:01 AM UTC
I'm waiting on mine to come...
PanzerKarl
Joined: April 20, 2004
KitMaker: 2,439 posts
Armorama: 1,980 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 06:43 AM UTC
Well put vinnie.you can only criticize on the kits if you have built them both.but i do think the DML kit will be the overall WINNER.Now if Tamiya do get there act together and bring out a new tiger?not a remold a total new kit with extras then we may be on to a winner.but untill that happens its DML all the way.cheers 
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 06:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Now if Tamiya do get there act together and bring out a new tiger?not a remold a total new kit with extras then we may be on to a winner.but untill that happens its DML all the way
Nope, It's not going to happen. Not now, not ever. Tamiya-San doesn't live in the world the rest of us live in. They are going to do the occasional 1/35th Modern AFV in the years to come. They are going to produce more 1/48th kits. As far as becoming a 'player' again? No way. They will continue to treat AFV Modellers like supplicants, throwing the odd scrap our way. The 'fundamentalists'will rejoice and fill the forums with praise for the generosity of the 'Big T' and endless speculate as to what the next wonder will be.
Meanwhile, DML, Trumpeter and AFV Club will continue improving, releasing and surpassing themselves... Jim
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
Armorama: 3,034 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 07:07 AM UTC
I have built Tigers frm Academy and Tamiya so far...personally, I am looking to add another one to the stash just because of the features I've read. From everything Ihave read...reviews, opinions, and pictures I've seen, the Dragon is the way to go. You get more bang for your buck. I'm sure the AFV is also excellent, but individual links combined with an $8 cheaper price sells me
Monte
Joined: December 08, 2002
KitMaker: 833 posts
Armorama: 601 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 07:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Nope, It's not going to happen. Not now, not ever. Tamiya-San doesn't live in the world the rest of us live in. They are going to do the occasional 1/35th Modern AFV in the years to come. They are going to produce more 1/48th kits. As far as becoming a 'player' again? No way. They will continue to treat AFV Modellers like supplicants, throwing the odd scrap our way. The 'fundamentalists'will rejoice and fill the forums with praise for the generosity of the 'Big T' and endless speculate as to what the next wonder will be.
Meanwhile, DML, Trumpeter and AFV Club will continue improving, releasing and surpassing themselves... Jim
You're absolutly right Jim. Personaly I would like nothing more than to see them buried by a mountain of competitors kits and their own ignorance.
GunTruck
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 5,885 posts
Armorama: 3,799 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 07:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm waiting on mine to come...
:-) - Me too! I got both on order and heading for my mailbox. Since I haven't done a Tiger before - I'm anticipating a lot of fun with both kits! Oh what a great time it is to be an armor modeler...
Gunnie
WhiteAdder
Joined: February 16, 2005
KitMaker: 2 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 08:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Since the kit is not out isn't it a little presumptuous to say whether the AFV kit is any better/worse than the DML at this point?
One of these kits just sold on Ebay for $60 with shipping from Taiwan.
thebear
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
Armorama: 3,579 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 10:41 AM UTC
Well I'm still out on which late to buy ...on top of the two that are gathering dust on my huge pile of kits...hey why not!! I think I'll let the experts tell me which one will be worth my money ...I'm not going to be swayed by extras in the box if the other kit is better ,but if they say that they are just as good one way or the other then they might help me make up my mind.
all the best
Rick
all the best
Rick
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 11:15 PM UTC
Purely for the possibilities, I'm buying the DML one. However, if the 'bug bites' I will inevitably buy the AFV one as well. This is coming from a totally convinced Allied modeller...Jim :-)
Paul_Owen
Joined: May 11, 2002
KitMaker: 140 posts
Armorama: 108 posts
Posted: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 11:32 PM UTC
Having both kits now, the DML one is far superior and cheaper too. AFV Club's is closer to Tamiya's in quality.
Paul.
Paul.
sgirty
Joined: February 12, 2003
KitMaker: 1,315 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 01:13 AM UTC
Hi, I see there's a write up just posted over on the Track-Link site on this kit for anybody who is interested in seeing what it has to say. Looks like a good model, but I think DML has stolen the thunder from them with with their Tiger at the moment.
Personally I think AFV Club could have spent their time better in designing and producing some more of those fantasitc artillery pieces that have been so successful for them in the past. But that's just my opinion.
Take care, Sgirty
Personally I think AFV Club could have spent their time better in designing and producing some more of those fantasitc artillery pieces that have been so successful for them in the past. But that's just my opinion.
Take care, Sgirty
tankshack
Joined: January 30, 2002
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 01:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
:-) - Me too! I got both on order and heading for my mailbox. Since I haven't done a Tiger before - I'm anticipating a lot of fun with both kits! Oh what a great time it is to be an armor modeler...
Gunnie
Gunnie,
Welcome to the 'darkside'
of modeling... I thought that I'd never see the day that you built a Panzer... I am receiving a copy of the AFV Club Tiger I today along with another AFV Club kit (The SdKfz 251/22... now that kit blows the DML one away) Many thanks to Luckymodel for shipping them out so fast
Later,
Tim
SEDimmick
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 02:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Nope, It's not going to happen. Not now, not ever. Tamiya-San doesn't live in the world the rest of us live in. They are going to do the occasional 1/35th Modern AFV in the years to come. They are going to produce more 1/48th kits. As far as becoming a 'player' again? No way. They will continue to treat AFV Modellers like supplicants, throwing the odd scrap our way. The 'fundamentalists'will rejoice and fill the forums with praise for the generosity of the 'Big T' and endless speculate as to what the next wonder will be.
Meanwhile, DML, Trumpeter and AFV Club will continue improving, releasing and surpassing themselves... Jim
Saying that is a bit presumous don't you think? Look at the curernt darling, DML. Back a couple years ago..the only thing they where intent on putting out was GI Joe dolls and a couple armor/figure kits here and there. Only in the past year or so have they gotten serious about AFV's again. I think Tamiya's current "troubles" if you can say that are financal/mangerial, not a lack of will. They still have the best brand recongition and argurbley the easiest kits to assemble. Don't ever count them out, because I'm sure that they can knock heads with the best of them when they want. Witness what happened about 4-5 years ago when DML was coming out with the some German Flak kits on the Pz4 platform...Tamiya beat them to the punch with their releases.
Teacher
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
Armorama: 3,679 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 03:00 AM UTC
No. I have to say that I agree with Jim on this one Scott. There is no way back for Tamiya. The main reason being the difference in the cost of labour and tooling and all its associated costs between China and Japan. Tamiya cannot compete with Dragon now that Dragon have the infrastructure to produce kits of the quality of their Tiger (initial).
Vinnie
Vinnie
tankshack
Joined: January 30, 2002
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 03:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
There is no way back for Tamiya.
...
Tamiya cannot compete with Dragon now that Dragon have the infrastructure to produce kits of the quality of their Tiger (initial).
Vinnie
No way back???? I will be the first to admit that Tamiya has let me down in a lot of ways... but to say that they are "down" or "out" is a bit premature....
Think about it... they are selling more and more of the "Ready made"/prepainted stuff... their R/C products are destroying the competition and they continue to dominate in other areas of the hobby world.. such as Aircraft, cars and most certainly motorcycles... The fact is that the 1/35 scale line is just one part of their overall program... if I could, I'd buy Tamiya stock now and in the future... Mr. Tamiya has always 'improvised and adapted' to overcome the fickle whims of us modelers...
We may not like it... but that M41 Walker Bulldog still sells thousands of copies each year... right along with their other 'old dogs'.
Later,
Tim
Teacher
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
Armorama: 3,679 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 03:39 AM UTC
Tim,
We are not talking R/C. We are not talking about over priced 'finished' models. They are not supposed to overcome the fickle whims of modellers. They are supposed to cater to them. It is simple economics. The emergence of China's manufacturing base into this hobby of ours will not be stopped. Tamiya are probably grateful that Dragon hasn't decided to make R/C gear........yet. If they do, then simple economics will again dictate that they will win. Or somebody else from China. It's cheaper to make things there. It's an old story that has been repeated many times. Now its Japan's turn! Mehahhahhha! :-)
Vinnie
We are not talking R/C. We are not talking about over priced 'finished' models. They are not supposed to overcome the fickle whims of modellers. They are supposed to cater to them. It is simple economics. The emergence of China's manufacturing base into this hobby of ours will not be stopped. Tamiya are probably grateful that Dragon hasn't decided to make R/C gear........yet. If they do, then simple economics will again dictate that they will win. Or somebody else from China. It's cheaper to make things there. It's an old story that has been repeated many times. Now its Japan's turn! Mehahhahhha! :-)
Vinnie
tankshack
Joined: January 30, 2002
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 03:53 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Tim,
It is simple economics. The emergence of China's manufacturing base into this hobby of ours will not be stopped. Tamiya are probably grateful that Dragon hasn't decided to make R/C gear........yet.
Vinnie
I took economics in grad school... there was nothing 'simple' about it except for one concept... MORE is preferred to less.... :-)
The forces at work in China will eventually catch up with them... as the standard of living rises so will the wage demands of the workers...
The hobby business is changing... and I for one am very excited by the continued competition... it has only improved things for all of us... the DML Tiger I has made a huge splash... but... the best thing is that some company out there... (Tamiya or Tristar or Trumpeter or some other company) Now has to jump over the bar and make an even better kit.
Later,
Tim
jimbrae
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
Armorama: 9,486 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 03:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Mr. Tamiya has always 'improvised and adapted' to overcome the fickle whims of us modelers...
This is simply incorrect. Tamiya enjoyed a virtual monopoly position for years - the real reason for their previous dominance.. Economically they are on a 'hiding to nothing' unless they move to mainland China, which is unlikely, they will continue to be what they are - 'has - beens'
To be honest the writing has been on the wall for Tamiya for a few years, it strikes me as strange that there is still a sprited defence of a company which treats Armor Modellers with complete contempt...
I stand by my previous statement and would like to suggest that people start looking towards the future with companies like AFV, DML, Trumpeter and Bronco...Jim
Teacher
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
Armorama: 3,679 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 04:00 AM UTC
Exactly! As you say Scott, the forces in China will eventually catch up with them. As I said, it's an old story that has been repeated.
And well said Jim.
Vinnie
And well said Jim.
Vinnie
SEDimmick
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 04:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This is simply incorrect. Tamiya enjoyed a virtual monopoly position for years - the real reason for their previous dominance.. Economically they are on a 'hiding to nothing' unless they move to mainland China, which is unlikely, they will continue to be what they are - 'has - beens'
To be honest the writing has been on the wall for Tamiya for a few years, it strikes me as strange that there is still a sprited defence of a company which treats Armor Modellers with complete contempt...
I stand by my previous statement and would like to suggest that people start looking towards the future with companies like AFV, DML, Trumpeter and Bronco...Jim
Jim,
I'm starting to think your the one full of contempt for Tamiya. You might forget they where the Pioneers of 1/35 scale, set the standard for new generation armor kits with its own Tiger I in 1989, released the FAMO and Dragon Wagon which where both groundbreaking in their own right. Tamiya can compete with China's cheap manufacturing with its Philipino factory, so the cost issue is nil.
You have alot of balls or what not to compair a company like Bronco to Tamiya...their products haven't even hit the market yet, but your saying since they are based of China they are better then Tamiya?
I'm happy that there are other players in the market and I support them, but I'm not going let someone attack another manufacture by calling them a has been because someone has a hard on for them
Teacher
Joined: April 05, 2003
KitMaker: 4,924 posts
Armorama: 3,679 posts
Posted: Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 04:35 AM UTC
There is absolutely no call for a personal attack, or the use of expressions such as those on a site such as this. Temper your loyalty to Tamiya with the realisation that they don't even know or care that you exist. They are in it for the profits, exactly the same as every other business out there. They just don't want to do through making armour kits anymore. Please think about editing your above post.
Vinnie
Vinnie
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