hi everyone. i have an old tamiya 88 flak which i was thinking of repainting it and towed by a vehicle. i know 88s were usually towed by sdkfz 7 halftracks, but so far i can only find afv club sdkfz 11 in the LHS.


the question is: can/did the sdkfz 11 tow the 88 flak?

thanks..

Hi Mojimbo,

On the side of the sdkfz 11's box, doesn't it show which artillery it usually tows? I think AFV also makes the artillery that is towed right?

hi target_j...

well, i think the box art only show the sdkfz 11, no towed artillery. they could probably tow 75mm PAKs and such... but the 88 is much heavier, and i think the sdkfz 11 is bit smaller and less common than the sdkfz 7... i'm just not sure whether the 11 is capable of towing the 88?

I've seen this question bounced around before when the AFV-11 kit first came out. The answers came from people who seemed to be up on their reference stuff and they claimed, absolutly never towed 88's. Now mind you they never said it was physically impossible or just German military regulation like - a no-no. I can't see Rommel saying "awh hell we've got nothing regulation-wise to tow the 88's to the front, ok leave em." Being the awsome tank destroyer at great ranges that it was, I would imagine to get it someplace vital and needed they would have towed it with 20 Volkswagons. I also read somewhere that the Germans forbade Tigers being towed by other Tigers, well I've seen pics of that, so much for being scared of being put on double secret probation. - [ Animal House]. - Cheyenne

Guy at the website below says they towed 88s late in the war. For what is worth...

Shaun

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/half_tracks/sdkfz11.html

Hi Mojimbo,
The Sdkfz 11 was originally designed to be prime mover for light 105mm, Pak 36/37/40 or nebelwerfers but later in the war was apparently used to tow the heavy 88mm Pak43 series guns( the Pak43 used the flak cruciform mount while the Pak43/41 used the sFH18 150mm carriage, both guns were outwith the "safe" towing capacity of the Sdkfz11..)
The Sdkfz 7 had an 8 tonne towing capacity, 88mm flak 18/36/37 series weighed close to 5 tonnes on tow. Sdkfz 7s also were the prime movers for the heavy 105mm and 150mm howitzers.
So...it is possible Sdkfs 11's were used to pull 88mm flak, it would be good to get a reference to confirm it , but IMHO its an entirely possible combination,
Hope this is some help

Yes, but those are PAK88's and not FLAK88's.

I can't find anything for you, I don't think they were used for this. But of course, it could be that the Germans used everything they could get their hands on to tow their equipment, and that Sdkfz 11's were used if there were no Sdkfz 7's available....

But I don't have anything that confirms that....

Jimbo, it all depends on what you are going to use it for, if it is just for your viewing pleasure, then it wouldn't matter, would it, cause which one of your friends would know a 7 from a 11, or a 999 half track.

Now if your putting it in a competition, then everybody there will know, it all depends on what you want it for, it is only a hobby, as Grumpy puts it, and I feel the same way about it, if it looks good, I do it, and don't worry about the little details like that, cause I don't enter any competitions.

Anyway, it could of been an emergency situation, and that was the only thing they had to move it, so they used it, rather then let the 88 flak set, who can say other wise.

Kerry

I'd say yes!
I agree 100% with Cheyenne, if they
could do it they would!

Rommel would leave nothing behind!!
Ron

Even though there is a possibility of that happening, especially at the end of the war, I have never come up with a photo showing that being done. The safer way is not to do it. If you are not a freak about 100% historical correctness, why the hell not?
Mind you, the weight of the piece would be too much for the sdkfz11 on rough terrain.

Well, since my name was mentioned.... and I do treat this as a hobby, a source of relaxation and enjoyment, not over taxing my senile mind with counting rivets, color specturms, and digital angle dangles. There really are a few things I do try to do, one is try to depict my models in some sort of accurate or historicly correct forms. Maybe not every nut and bolt, every rivet, is accounted for, but there are things I would not consider doing. Unless it was for some off the wall, anything goes, use your imagination campiagn.
I certainly would NOTdiplict a duce and a half towing a 155 Long Tom
Nor would I deplict a beep towing a 31/2 ton trailer setup with a dolly.
I'm not a German equiptment expert, by any means, but I believe it was able to pull up to 3 tons.... anything over that would be left for the larger towing vehicles.
I just happen to be building the Sdk11 now, (out of the box of course) but the version with the ammo lockers for the Nebelwerfer. So far it's a pretty good kit with no fit problems. And it gives me a reason to build the old Italeri Nebelwerfer kit I got in the closet.

Hi Dave~
Ouch! What should tow a long Tom??
Ron

One was the 7 ton Mack , Not only did the 2 1/2 not have the strength, but it's towing pintle wasn't rated for pulling that much and would either self destruct or get ripped off.
Others would be according to my one reference book:
M-33,M-34,M-35, M-4 high speed tractor, M-5 High Speed tractor.

thanks for the replies guys, i appreciate them.

well, it's a toss of the coin then.

frankly i'm not sure the 11 can tow the 88 (yes, its the flak 88 not the pak43) due to its smaller size than the sdkfz7. so, to be historically correct the 11 could never tow the 88.

however, it might be slightly possible that it could happen during the war, and me not being such a fuss, perhaps i will do it one day...just for the heck of it. but i'll keep it simmering in the background for now.

.. or perhaps i could keep on looking for that elusive (tamiya) sdkfz 7/1.... hmm...




now that's an interesting thought!

Hi Mojimbo,

Would a sdkfz 7/1 with a Flak mounted still be able to tow a 88 Flak? Even if it could, i would say it would have an "overkill" look.

Should just settle for a sdkfz 7.

If you want a sdkfz 7/1 that is available locally, do PM me.

oh yeah.. your'e right. what i mean is the sdkfz 7, the one with rows of seats for the 88 crew:

Just my 2 penn-orth. I've seen a photo of a 1.5 ton Steyr towing a Pak40, which was the normal load of the Sdkfz 11. I would be inclined to say that the Sdkfz 11 was in shorter supply than the 7, so the combination seems unlikely to me.
Armoured versions of the 11, the Sdkfz251 were still capable of towing the Pak40 or LeFH (105), but since this vehicle was originally rated for 3 tons, a Flak36/7 seems too much to me, for the reasons grumpy quotes.
The sizes of the 2 vehicles are sufficiently different that it's unlikely it would look right also. There are loads of Tamiya Sdkfz 7s about (eg Ebay). It's now looking a bit crude alongside modern kits, & the crew need junking, but with work looks Ok.

Hi all,
The 8.8cm Pak's and Flak's would have been too much for the SdKfz 11 3-ton tractor. It would have burned out the transmission and engine due to the sheer gross weight of those weapons. The SdKfz 6 5-ton could handle the Pak and the SdKfz 7 8-ton would do the heavier Flaks.
The Germans usually did not exceed the GWT allowance of their vehicles, they were good at maintaining them too.

Chris- Helpful Pig (++)

This discussion raises another question. Since there were no Sdkfz11 assigned to Flak88 where would they come up with one in order to tow it? Its not like they'd find it on the side of the road, or that someone would lend it to them out of goodness of the heart. If there weren't any 11s assigned to flak platoons this simply would be impossible to see.

I agree with everyone on this discussion and I'm not a rivet counter. I will argue with my friends though when they say they have no photographic proof of this. I agree with Grumpyoldman it's a hobby, besides we were not there and if it's not in photos dosen't mean it did'nt happen. If something like an 11 is modeled towing an 88 [ flak ] and the context is a desperate straights build, especially in North Africa I have no problem with this, or Stalingrad, Berlin etc., not that the 11 was at the former two, but if historically it was around hey you can bet they tried using it - too valuable a piece to be left behind or brought to the front. Speaking of photographic " evidence " how many photos of the Falise< [ spl. ] pocket have you seen where the Germans were towing everything with horses, dead by the side of the road I might add, just to get the hell out of Dodge! All I'm trying to say is build it, but build it depicting desperate measures Germans looking over thier shoulders , to the sky for the Jabos etc. Burnt out trannys aside as a static build no it won't wash, but in a Dio. or Vig. why not, especially if you depict a desperate situation. - Cheyenne

Howdy fellas,

Interesting thread. It's always tickling to read arguments about "towing" capacity and the like, especially when licked and labeled on the Germans....

As a potentially curtain-spreading question, wasn't it the German's who almost always overweighted their engines through normal design? I have just recently exercised through this argument in regards to the Germans building very heavy vehicles in relationship to their engines.......or am I just having a synapse relapse?.......?

Tread.

Gordon, if you're thinking of the Tiger etc, I think the performance was Ok for a vehicle that size. The Tiger & Panther had basically the same engine, Panther could do 30mph+, that's pretty fast for a 45 ton vehicle. The addition of extra armour dictated by the A/T performance race was beginning to be a problem with later marks of PzIV, but it was still one of the most reliable German tanks. Compare the Churchill, which basically had an AEC bus engine!
Going back to the Sdkfz 11 theme, I think you might move an 88 on a smooth road, but in the mud no way. As far as the 20 VWs are concerned, I think it would just rip the tow hooks out of the bodywork of the one linked to it!

It is not correct to compare tanks with softskins. They have differnt roles, so their weight/work -done ratio is completely different.
If you take Sdkfz11 engine and put it on a lighter frame it would still have difficulties in pulling such a load.
I still can't figure out who would lend the 11, there weren't many just lying around there.

I've driven trucks most of my life, and I've learned a lot a long the way, but when I first started, it was with a gas job triaxle dump, well the loader went to lunch, so I loaded it myself out of the bin full of the stone they use for black top, that real tiny stone, cause they paid by the ton.

I didn't know you could get that much weight on a truck, that old 60's girl was bowed in the center, and it had a double transmission, with a 5 and a 3, but I didn't need to worry about that with that weight.

I took off, and got a run for that little hill, I swear I could hear the pistons fireing one by one by the time I got to the top it seemed, I almost didn't think I was, and this was just a little hump, and it was 500 and sum cubic inch, I can't remember now, but a Ford, well I got to the scales, and the scale man came running out saying get the hell off his scales before I broke them.

Well I had to take it a little ways to the asphalt plant, and I only got to third gear, or fourth on the first box, I never even shifted the other, then it seemed to not have no brakes, thank God there was nothing around, and plenty of room to pull in.

That is when I learned real quick about over loading a truck, it could move, but very slowly, and the brakes, seemed like I was pushing on a balloon for all they done, good thing I was only going 15 to 20 mph.

The brakes would only work at walking speed with that weight, they figured I was well over, I can't remember what it was now, but they weighed tractors and trailers on that same scale, but some how I was way more then what they weigh to, so they can handle extreme weights for short periods, it just isn't safe.

They put the tonnage rating on them for a safe margin, so they have plenty of good braking, plus the HP to pull it at safe speeds without anything breaking.

I was real lucky I didn't blow out a tire in that 1/4 mile trip, plus the loader never let me load myself no more, but I was young, and didn't know no better, you learn from your mistakes.

A real good example of how trucks handle heavier loads is the Michigan centipedes, with all them multi axles under them, they haul over 120,000 pounds all the time, they take off quick, and stop fast, cause they have all them axles, with brakes, and bearing's, to handle the extra weight.

I had a friend that quit from pulling a centipede, and went to pulling a 5 axle like the rest of us, but they offered him an permitted overload, which when enough money is applied, they give you the permits to overload a little, well he went even more, cause he figure he used to pull that kind of weight all the time, and never thought about him only having 5 axles now.

Well he said he was never so glad to get that load off, and glad he never got caught with it, cause it was real hard to stop he said, he said I never thought about only having 5 axles of brake shoes now, and he said that sure does make a big difference at higher speeds, and getting it moving was harder to, not having all them bearings in the axles either, cause he had the same tractor, just a different trailer.

He said he had to give more then double the stopping distance then he normally did, and if an emergency had arisen, he wouldn't of been able to stop.

Those bigger trucks also have wider brake shoes, and when your trying to stop all that weight, you need all you can get, that is the most fearful thing is getting it stopped in time.

Kerry

Well, the 11 is tracked, so braking would not be such a problem. I haven't driven one, but when I was doing my army service, I had several MTLB's in my platoon (Russian-armour fans would know what they are) and the problem wasn't breaking, the moving when overloaded was. An engine has a certain freight moving capacity, you can't exceed it without anything breaking in the process. Hell, army vehicles break down even when used within their limits, let alone exceeding them.