When the M35 prime mover was used to tow artillery, what type of support vehicle could reasonably be expected to accompany it? Since the M35 could not possibly carry enough ammo to sustain a fire mission, there must have been some vehicle designated to carry ammo and dedicated to each gun. Which one or ones???

maybe another one?

carrying the basic load?

reb

Tom,

I renamed this topic in hopes of getting a better awnser for you. I also deleted the new one.

Thanks, Matt. Hope I get something. Otherwise, I'm kinda lost>

I believe it resonable to suppose that GMC 6X6 trucks or some of the heavier ones like Corbitt or White would have supported the guns and M35 with Ammo re-supply.

This is only a guess but I think you will find it pretty close to the truth.

Hope this helps
Cliff

I read somewhere (can't recall where now) that the prime mover was not really used to tow the M115 8 inch Howitzer as depicted on AFV Club's M115 Howitzer's box. Is this true?

According to "The American Arsenal"....
Page 81....
Full Track Prime Movers:
Pending the the production of the 38 ton High Speed Tractor M-6 the following were Substute Standard for towing the 240mm Howitzer, and 8 inch gun, the 155 Long tom falls into these weight classes.
Full track Prime Mover M-33
Full track Prime Mover M-34
Full track Prime moverM-35.
Since the pages are from the tech manuals, of WW2, I rather believe they actually might know what they were talking about.

Again according "The American Arsenal....."
The 21/2ton, 4 ton, 5 ton, and 6 ton, were not capable of towing the 240mm/8inch gun/155 long tom, their max pulling weight unloaded were 16,500 pounds. The 155 long tom/240mm weight was in excess of 30,000 pounds, the carriage alone ( without the gun) was in excess of 22,000 pounds. The ONLY wheeled vehicle capable of towing the 155 long tom, 240mm was the 71/2 Mack.

Hi Grumpy:
Thnx for your post. However, your description of the 155 Long tom 240mm gun seems a little confusing.

There were several distinct field and super heavy artillery weapons:

1) 105mm Howitzer M2 (weight 4980 lbs), towed by 2.5 ton GMC truck or M5 HST
2) 4.5 inch gun M1 (wt 13400 lbs) towed by M5 HST
3) 155mm howitzer M1 (wt 12800) towed by M5 HST
4) 155mm gun M1 "Long Tom" (wt 30600 lbs) towed by Mack NO 6.5 ton truck or M4 HST
5) 8" Howitzer M1 (30000 lbs) towed by Mack NO 6.5 ton truck or M4 HST
6) 8-in. Gun M1 (wt 69500) M6 HST, M33, M34 and M35 tractors (in several loads)
7) 240mm Howitzer M1 (wt. 64700 lbs) M6 HST, M33, M34 and M35 (in several loads)

Basically the 4.5" and 155mm Howitzer shared the same carriage, the 155mm gun and the 8" howitzer shared the same carriage, and the 8-in gun and 240mm howitzer shared the same carriage -- therefore the same assigned prime movers.

It was possible for higher rated prime movers (like the M33, M34 and M35) to be used in a pinch to tow something lighter (like a 155mm Gun "Long tom") and I've seen photos of M33s used in this capacity. However, the M33, M34 and M35 were designed for the heavier loads associated wth the 240mm howitzer and the 8-in gun.

Thanks, guys. Now we're gettin' somewhere. This is great info. Any pics available that you know of?

http://tanxheaven.com/m59lt/m59ltpic.htm

hope this helps ya out some

reb

1) 105mm Howitzer M2 (weight 4980 lbs), towed by 2.5 ton GMC truck or M5 HST
Correct... but was not part of the original post.
2) 4.5 inch gun M1 (wt 13400 lbs) towed by M5 HST The 21/2 was maxed out before this weight could safely be towed.
Correct but again was not part of the original post
3) 155mm howitzer M1 (wt 12800) towed by M5 HST
2 wheeled light weight carriage, again not part of the original post. But could also be towed by the 4+ ton wheeled prime moversalso, (the 4 ton would be pretty well maxed out trying to pull 12,800 pounds, since it's normal towing load was rated at 11,000 pounds. The 21/2 was maxed out before the weight could safely be towed.
4) 155mm gun M1 "Long Tom" (wt 30600 lbs) towed by Mack NO 6.5 ton truck or M4 HST
The Mack was actually 7.5 tons and was developed to pull the M1 Long Tom, on the ten wheel carriage, could carry a 5,000 pound payload when towing the gun, either equiptment, ammo, or personel. And yes the M-4 was also developed to tow it. The M-4 could also carry a small ammo suppy, and the crew, and equiptment.
5) 8" Howitzer M1 (30000 lbs) towed by Mack NO 6.5 ton truck or M4 HST
Same as above
6) 8-in. Gun M1 (wt 69500) M6 HST, M33, M34 and M35 tractors (in several loads)
This was one of the the reasons for developing the M-6, along with the 240mm Howitzer. Neither could be transported by a single vehicle or as a sinlge load. Support vehicles included truck mounted cranes to assemble and disassemble the weapons, and to place on trailers and tranport carriages for transport.
7) 240mm Howitzer M1 (wt. 64700 lbs) M6 HST, M33, M34 and M35 (in several loads)
Correct.... both these HAD to be broken down into several loads, to be towed by anything. Until the development of the M-6, 38 ton high speed tractor, which could tow the 240 mm howitzer/8 inch gun on it wheeled carraiage without breaking down in to smaller loads. The 8 Inch, and 240mm were more along the lines of semi-permanentt instillations, and movement was a long involved process, not something as simple as hitching up your 105, and towing it.

The original post I believe was about the M-35, and what it could or would tow, and what other vehicles would support it.
Knowing that it could and would tow the AFV club 155 Long Tom/Howitzer, was mechanically capable, and designated as the subsitute standard, for towing these weapons, along with the M-33, and M-34. Since the Mack NO 7.5 ton and M-4 were normally in short supply even after entering service later in the war, I still believe the old subsitute standards were used, until they could be replaced, and probably were used until the end of the war.

As for other support vehicles, Since the M-33, M-34, M-35 had a crew of 6, I would say the gun crews, and other equiptment, and ammo were supplied from other wheel vehicles from the 21/2 to the 6 ton trucks, and a few signal trucks thrown in for communications.
The M-33, and M-34 were rebuilt on the tank recovery versions of the M-3, M-4, and the M-35 was a rebuilt M-10. The discription of these vehicles, speaks of them carrying only the equiptment needed to transport them, and not carrying any ammo for them. The crew of 6 and the equiptment probably took up most of the avalable space.

Thanks again, everyone. You have been most enlightening and I feel good now. I can already see a diorama in my head, although it would be fairly large, but really enjoyable. This is gonna be great. Feel free to continue. :-)

I'm looking forward to seeing your diorama Tom, good luck with it, and hopefully we all have been a part of helping you.
Now to track down an azmit Mack, since I'll never be able to afford the Accurate Armor one. :-) :-) :-)

There was a huge (7 ft tall, 18-1/2 ft long) trailer, the M23, procured in some numbers for hauling 155mm, 8-inch and 240mm ammo. It could be used with or without a limber and was pulled by the same vehicles as the corresponding artillery.

KL

Yes... The M-23 8ton, Ammunition trailer came into use around April 1944.

The simple answer would be jeeps , beeps and GMC 6x6s for any artillery unit . Maybe half tracks too .

Some interesting reading I found :
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/artillery.aspx

209 M35s were were "built" along with 133 M33s and M34s starting in Dec. 1943 . These were to tow the 8"gun {not to be confused with the 8"howitzer} and the 240mm howitzer . It was a stop gap measure to replace the less than 10 mph crawler tractors until the M6 high speed tractor could be produced . Don't think that many M6s made it there befor the end of the war .
Too bad nobody makes a gun to go with the M35 !

As far as I can tell most heavy artillery was towed by crawler type tractors until 1943 . The Marines an army used crawlers in the PTO thru 1945 .

Joe