Dear all

Thinking about my next project and would like to do something with a set of figures i bought recently - Dragon's Red Devils at Arnhem. Its a set of British Paras, including one with a PIAT, loading up to have a pop at something. Wondered if anybody can advise me:

1. What would be a reasonable target for a PIAT and what would strike of desperation (i.e. would it be futile vs a King Tiger or Panther or might it be worth a rear apect shot)?

2. What Panzer Divisions were around Arnhem during 'Market Garden' and what mix of vehicles did they have?

Grateful for any help/advice from all you accuracy experts.

Here are some links as far as MG is concerned
http://www.arnhemarchive.org/frames.htm

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/20478&page=1
very nice one
http://www.marketgarden.com/new/frames.html
lots of links
[ur]https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/18560&page=1[/url]
http://www.rememberseptember44.com/

As far as would a PIAT go after a KT - don't think so... Maybe a rear shot or at the wheels of a Panther. I'd wait for the armor experts here.

During the Arnhem Battle you had the

9th SS Hohenstaufen panzer Division

and

10th SS Frundsberg Panzer Division

They had all sorts of tanks in the Arnhem Area, including Tigers.

We must remember that the only thing that the airborne infantry had against the tanks (during streetfights) was the PIAT... it was used against any tank during the battle, since they had little alternatives... a few gammon grenades but that's it. They did pretty amazing things with PIAT's in the Oosterbeek area.

Ola Si

Well probably Danny (Eagle) can give you a better answer to this he will rpobably discover this post later this day. He is quite an Market Garden Red Devil expert.

But In the situation the para`s were during Market Garden I can imagine that if they had enough rounds they would pop it at everything that only smelled a hint like danger. Sadly the story is that they did not have enough rounds and the supplies were dropped right into the hands of the Germans. But still you would give a try at killing a Tiger or a panther. I don`t really know if the PIAT was really effective against those machines but you would try it. Next to that the PIAT was like the most hard to use weapon the brits invented and it was really hard to hit something with the weapon.

Panzer Divisions in Arnhem were
9. SS panzer Division "Hohenstaufen"
10. SS Panzer Division "Frundsberg"
Around Arnhem you would also find
Panzer- Ersatz- Regiment "Bielefeld" Pz. Kp. "Mielke"
Schwere Panzer Kompanie "Hummel"
Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 506 (near Oosterbeek)
Sturmgeschutz Brigade 280
and Panzer-Kompanie 244'

German Vehicles you can use are:
Sd.Kfz. 234/1 and 234/3
Sd.Kfz. 251/9
Sd.Kfz 251 ausf. D
Sd.Kfz 250/1 Alt, 250/3 Neu and alt
Sd.Kfz 162/1 Jagdpaner IV L48
Sd.Kfz. 161/3 Möbelwagen "late"
Sd.Kfz. 10/2 with 2CM Flak 38
Sd.Kfz. 171 Pz.Kpfw. V Panther Ausf. G "Early"
Sd.Kfz 9 18 ton Famo "Late"
Flammpanzer B2 (f) Char B1 Bis... Also the normal Char B will work fine)
Sd.Kfz. 142/1 Sturmgeschutz III Ausf. G "Late" with Schurzen
Sd.Kfz 142/2 Sturmhaubitze 42G "late" most without schurzen.
Sd.Kfz. 141/1 Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf G
Sd.Kfz 161/1 Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf H with and without Schurzen.
Sd.Kfz 181 Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger 1 Ausf. E "Early Version"

Most of the above vehicles were Either sand colored or had a variation of the Three tone camo with sand colored base and above that spots, stripes, splotches of a reddish brown and green. Also a lot of german tanks were additionally camoflaged with branches to obscure them from Aerial recognition and divebombers.

Robert,

like Ramses Shaffy (Dutch singer) sang a long, long time ago...."Hoog Sammie, Kijk omhoog Sammie" :-)

(free translation of the song... Up Sammy, Look Up Sammy)

I beat you to it by a few minutes

BTW, thanks Robert,

that's impressive information you managed to produce. Quite a complete list as I may say so.

Thanks again !

Try and get hold of a factual book about Arnhem called "The Devil's Birthday" by Geoffrey Powell . The Paras had 6 pounders at arnhem (and I think some other Arty. In the book there's a story of one of the para officers Maj. Robert Cain knocking out at least one tiger with a piat. The story is also told on this website
http://www.arnhemarchive.org/robert_cain.htm

The PIAT was very much an effective wapon in the Arnhem and Oosterbeek street battles. The effective range of the PIAT is only about 50 to 70 yards, remember that the PIAT is a springloaded wapen. Any bigger distance and the PIAT round would probably not even reach the target... . So in the extremely close courter fighting of Arnhem and Oosterbeek the PIAT was a deadly weapon. Combined with hand granates and captured Panzerfausts, the Red Devils held off the combined might of a complete Panzer Division plus assorted support units. And none of these where " old men and young boys" either. The battle was only lost ( both in Arnhem around the bridge and in the Oosterbeek 'Cauldron' ) when no more ammunition was available for any of the weapons they had. Even then the last determinted Para's kept at it with their bajonets.

Apart from the PIATs at close range, there were the 6 pdr's, which took their toll... One of the V.C.'s of Arnhem was won by Lance-Sergant Baskeyfield when he knocked out 2 Tigerss and a SPG single-handed after the rest of the crew were killed. He actualy used 2 6 pdr's, after the first one was knocked out he crawled to one next to it with which he knocked out another SPG untill he was killed.

Arnhem is probably one of the battles that has the most "what if" disscussion devoted to it, but the biggest one has to be " what if they would have received most or all of their airdropped suppplies?"

Cheers
Henk

There isn't much I can add to the info above, but there were some PzIII s (Ausf J I think) used at the bridge. Photos of the SturmHaubitze 42 in action show the short barrel with no muzzle brake. BTW Hohenstaufen had virtually no armour left at the beginning of the battle (I think a couple of Panthers & PzIVs, most of the remaining tank crew fought as infantry, & the PzJ Abt had 2 PzJg IV). SS PzAA 9 had about 10 8 wheel armoured cars, & 20 halftracks, "hidden" from Korps HQ by removing guns etc & declaring them u/s. The only elements of Frundesberg engaged in Arnhem were elements of PzGr Rgt 21, but they had no armour of their own. King Tigers appeared in small numbers later on, mainly used to demolish houses! The PIAT was effective in the close up fighting, several KTs were knocked out, one burnt out completely due to a freak hit on the fuel tanks.

True about the 6 pndrs and 5mm Pack's, but the question was about the PIATs in the area, therefore I concentrated on that weapon.... it was, next to the Gammon Grenade, the only weapon the Paras could use against the Tanks. The 6 pounders and 75 mm pack howitzers where used in the streets and the fields, but the PIAT's where also used in spaces where the AT guns couldn't get (houses, atticks etc.).

Major Cain earned his VC while using a PIAT.... a story of true bravery can be read over here :

Major Robert Henry Cain VC

Ciao si36,
I feel like Steve, not much that I can add. I can tell you that they would have deployed the PIAT on the flanks whenever possible, and they would have aimed at the sprockets or the threads. The Germans used the 38mm PAK against the drive sprockets or optics of a tank with some success (granted, it was easier to aim the PAK, though.)
Also, try a search for John Dutton Frost (a personal hero of mine) who fought at Arnhem and, I think wrote the book "A drop too many." He fought in Sicily, also as a Para. What a guy!!
Hope it helps

I read that the Brits ran very very low on PIAT rounds rather early in the battle, not expecting to have to gut it out for more than 2 days.

The Germans, knowing that paras would be left hanging the longer they have to fight, threw a lot of miscellaneous light armor and armored cars at the paras the wear them down before sending in organized attacks of the super heavies. So beware that you won't find a lot of PIATs vs Tigers.

What can i say except thanks to all of you for your responses!

From what i've heard things got pretty desperate for the paras so i was thinking of depicting an impending PIAT attack on some heavy armor - it sounds like that is at least feasible.

Cheers

Maybe the title of your Dio could be based around "The Last Round" or similar, highlighting the importance of the ensuing shot in the Paras' plight

Brad

Absolutely a CAN DO !!

Dig into the Major Caine VC story....a story of true heroisme !

Have been looking at the story of Major R H Cain and his (successful) attempts at knocking out Tigers with a PIAT.

You said in your earlier post that it would be 'Early' version tigers - any chance of 'Late' ones there as well? Would be nice excuse for geting the new Dragon Tiger Late 3 in 1 kit!

Didnt 12 Platoon,B company ,
22Platoon,D company,The Border regiment knock some Flammpanzer B2[f]Char out with PIATS around Oosterbeek.
ALL THE FOURS

hehehe...that wasn't me... I couldn't tell the difference between those two even if they offered me money for the correct answer :-)

If there is one thing that I lack knowlegde of then it's German Armour.

si36 -

Not sure about the Tiger Is (much less "Early" version) actually in Arnhem or even Tiger IIs in the actual town mainly due to their size, mobility issues. They would be effective in destroying buildings,etc with their firepower. Someone more knowledgable than I needed on this topic, however. The Tiger IIs, I know were with Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 506 (near Oosterbeek).
I'm thinking a great diorama could be built around a PzKpfw IV coming over or through the hastily erected street rubble barricades or a defensive position as the PIAT team gets a shot at the under belly, side, or even rear. Rest of "Red Devils" could be scrambling out of the way, providing supporting fire, or firing on German troops following up behind the tank. The very close quarters, street and house-to-house fighting against overwhelming odds was where the "Red Devils" really demonstrated their unbelievable tenacity and courage. Some ideas for what sounds like a great idea. Keep us posted,

Blade48mrd

In the area around the Bridge, initially the Germans in their usual arrogance thought that they would round up these lightly armed Paratroopers within 24 hours, and clear the bridge for the 10th Pzr Division to move down to Nijmegen. The Oosterbeek pocket would be dealt with later.
It did not quite work out like that, as we all know.
In the initial stages of the battle in Arnhem, the Germans tried "frontal attacks", but found out to their great cost that in close quarter street battles the defender has the upperhand. The Para's repulsed any attempt the Germans trew at them. The Germans, arrogant but not stupid, changed tactics ( remember that they needed the bridge, intackt, desperatly to get their KT's to Nijmegen. At that time they were ferried one at a time over the Rijn at Panderden) and offer the Para's an honourable surrender. The para's declined, and the Germans decided to use their armour and 88's in the easiest way...knock each building holding Para's down, floor by floor, untill there are no houses left to shelter in. At that stage the "frontal attacks" were much reduced, untill the last day when the Para's supplies had completely run out.

In Oosterbeek a different tactic was used, in that the Germans kept up a constant bombardment, mainly mortars, which kept the Para's under cover. The Armour and infantry then used probing attacks to wear down the perimiter. Slow but very effective.

Cheers
Henk

Henk -

Appreciate the info very much. Always been a fan of the movie, "A Bridge Too Far" and I'd like to get myself more up to spend on "Arnhem" and Operation Market Garden in general. Could you recommend any good resources/books? Thanks again,

Blade48mrd

Try Cornelius Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far." I'm currently reading it and its quite interesting. There are quite a few great pictures in it as well. One in particular shows a King Tiger knocked out in an urban setting, thus proving King Tigers were forced to manuever the tight streets of Arnhem, though this picture looks like Oosterbeek. The Tiger though look as if it has been shot in the wheels. Other tanks shown are Panzer IVs. I've been meaning to do a Arnhem dio for quite some time and feel that with the chaos that ensued in Arnhem and other areas it would be quite fitting to interact paratroopers and Germans in close quarters. Hope this helps and good luck!

Mike,
There is a vast number of books dealing with the Battle of Arnhem, and Market-Garden in general. The best ones are those written by the Para's themselfs.
A Bridge to Far, by Cornelias Ryan has long been regarded as a very concise volume, giving much background info about the build up to Market-Garden. Later research and Veterans testemonies have shown some bits shown to be incorrect, but it is still a book everybody who is interested in Arnhem should read as it is propabply the most expansive on all aspects of the battle, from both sides, in one volume.
It contains a Bibliography which spans 13 pages, so I'll not list them all.. :-) .
Some other titles worth of reading are
'Arnhem' by Major-General R.E. Urquhart.
'Arnhem, a tragedy of errors' by Peter Harclerode.
'Cloud over Arnhem' by Kate ter Horst. This is not so much a military story, but the story of Kate ter Horst. Her house in Oosterbeek was used as a Hospital, and many Para's were buried in the garden.
I can't recall the titles, but there are also books by John Frost, and a good book that tells the story from the German side.

Cheers
Henk

Henk -

Much appreciated. I'd read Ryan's "A Bridge Too Far" many years ago and was looking for something more. Those books 'Arnhem' by Major-General R.E. Urquhart, 'Arnhem, a tragedy of errors' by Peter Harclerode, and 'Cloud over Arnhem' by Kate ter Horst sound exactly like what I'm looking for. You've given me some great references and motivation to get the reading done. Now to "Amazon.com" to order. Thank you again sir.

Blade48mrd