Greeting all. - sorry possible convertions!!!

With the release of the new Dragon M4A1(76) the body of which corrects many of the faults with the old Italeri kit could this be converted into:

1. M4A1 early (Sherman II) with the addition of a low bustle turret (early) from Formations or Legend?

2. Could it also be converted into a Firefly Ic with the Dragon Firefly turret or was there a difference in body length as with the Firefly and Mk V or did it carry a different type of turret?

3. Finally I know there is a kit by Formations to convert the Firefly into a Mk V. How much of this is necessary? Did the Mk V have a low bustle turret with Applique Armour or a (late) Low Bustle turret - or both? Did the Mk V have a different transmission than the Firefly?

I'd like to build a range of British Armour but I really don't want to and can't really justify buying AM products that cost more than the original kit. An extra £10.00 or £14.00 quid is Ok just, but after that I hesitate.

In an ideal world Dragon would lead on and produce a Mk II and a Mk 5 from the hulls they have already, even a new accurate Mk 1. I know the Mk III is promised for the future but I've been waiting years to build these kits. I'm not a nut and bolt counter I'd just like as accurate a representation as I can get at a price I can live with. As I seem to have developed a liking for tanks in troops this is even more worrying!!!

Thanks in advance.

Al

No
The early Sherman had small hatches this kit is the later large hatch sherman. DML already make an early sherman



No again the Firefly based on the M4 hull was either on the welded hull variant or the hybrid hull which had the front of the large hatch sherman and the rear was of welded construction. DML also make a hybrid hull Firefly kit and are due to rerelease it
They also made a 75mm M4A4 but I don't know if they plan to rerelease it

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the speedy reply.

I've never seen the Dragon M4 early on sale here. I think it came out just after I stopped modelling about 5 years ago, but was then withdrawn. I've never seen it anywhere overhere on on any of the suppliers sites I deal with.

Thanks for confirming what I thought would probably be the case - always living in hope.(ha ha)

Yip, I had heard that there was a possibility of the M4A4 coming out again but no details yet.

Anyway as you say I have the Firefly Ic and the Sherman III to look forward to.

That's excellent information - thanks again.

Al

hey Mcneily. Well i cant say much about the m4a1 (76)
even though it looks like a sweet kit, but the formation stuff is realy great, and i was a bit concerned about buying formation models update kit to the firefly, but i have bought it now, and it is almost build, and it realy looks good, and you get a lot of extras to bo extras box. If you dont know there is a uk distrubtor that sells formation models and legend stuff. Its called friendshipmodels, and they are quite quick, and there is great service.

cheers Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Yip, I had been checking out friendship models just before I posted the query.

No doubt they have great looking kits.

I hope you are enjoying those lovely tracks.(ha ha) The Firefly VC' a really nice build.

Thanks for the reply.

Al

Hi Al

Or you could swap the turret of the Firefly with the Tamiya M4 (not that) Early to make a Sherman V and a Firefly 1C out of the M4. I did mine by fitting the Upper part of the Tamiya turret to the Dragon lower. Took a bit of hacking and sanding, but the finished result is a lot better than the Dragon turret (which I don't particularly like). Also need to find a bow MG and leave the 17pdr gun crutch off.

All M4A4/Sherman V should have the 3-piece nose (AFAIK). And mostly horizontal return roller arms...

Hi David,

Excellent idea. I had been looking at the Tamiya turret and pictures of Mk V's and they looked the same to me but sometimes it's hard to tell, especially when your are just starting with Sherman's and there are so many different types.

Do you have pictures of both vehicles? That would be very useful.

Great - lots to think about. The range of knowledge available on this site is just so helpful and useful.

Cheers

Al

PS, Did you get my msg about the IG listing or are you not a number cruncher?

Hi Al

Thanks for the reminder about the IG listing, I will PM you my e-mail address pdq.

This page (in French) is useful as a way of learning the basics of M4 recognition - even if you can't read French

http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/m_4/doc_sherman.htm

Don't have any photos of my turret hack, I have an unenthusiam for cameras. It's not a hard job, just need to trim the side of the Dragon turret base under the pistol port and sand the rear under the bustle to give the turret base the proper round shape.

David

Dragon never did an M4 early, they made the M4A1 early. It came out around 1996-97 and sort of sat on the shelves. It disappeared shortly and became the Holy Grail Sherman tank model. It was reissued last year with some better parts. I think Dragon's hybrid Sherman Firefly 1C is the current super-rare kit.

Dragon's M4A1(76) can't be made into a Firefly. Both the turret and upper hull are not proper for any variant of Firefly.

Dragon has done at least three versions of the extended hull M4A4 Sherman V. One was a Chinese marked M4A4(75), a reissue came out with Coldstream Guards markings and 60lb rockets.

The third was the Sherman Firefly VC and it was recently retooled and reissued last year as a new kit (you could consider this the fourth M4A4).

As far as a Sherman 1, Tamiya's M4 early is all that's around right now (and it's not that early) in plastic. Once upon a time, MP Models made an early M4/M4A3 upper hull conversion mastered by Tom Gannon. It was pretty good for its time.

The general rule of thumb when dealing with low bustle vs. high bustle turrets is that if the hull has the early small hatches, it uses a low bustle turret. If a hull has the late large hatches, it uses a high bustle turret. Of course, as with most Shermans, this is not a hard-and-fast rule.

Adding to David's link to Sherman identification, I put together this quick article:

http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Sherman%20Corner/shermanvariants.html

Thanks Roy for the list.

Never say never with Shermans as there were a few hybrids with small hatches - these were the very first M4s produced at Detroit.

Thanks David and Roy, the links will be very useful.

Thanks also to Pat, Daniel and Robin for th information. Well folks that should give me something to think about over the next few days.

Happy modelling

Al

Alan when I said DML made an early Sherman this is the kit I meant

They were released twice and are now very scarce. DML may release the kit again or...they may not.
Tasca are due to release a Sherman kit this year but no word yet on what variant it is going to be

Hi Pat,

Thanks for that. I've never seen that one anywhere overehere.

Perhaps they will release a re-tooled version sometime in the future.

Thanks for the info.

Al

Roy,

How dare you post a list of Sherman relatives without our own Ram????

:-)

Paul