Yeah, some ARNG units were peice-mealed. Only one full up unit sent that I know of though.

I knew i read it some where as well about artillery as bait!
"An important Amercican innovation in Vietnam was the Fire Support Base(FSB) which was established as a self-contained and self-defended artillery base from which infantry operations- usually"search and destroy" missions- could be supported. Because it was within range of the support force, the support from the FSB was responsive, always available, and totally reliable, being able to fuction in conditions that precluded air support. In addition, since the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong regarded such feild artillery bases as attractive and vulnerable targets, FSB were sometimes dilideratelydisposed to invite retaliatory action, tempting the communists to concentrate attacking forces where they could be engaged and destoryed."
Quote, Major David Miller.
Sounds good in theory!

I guess your interpretation of "Bait" is different than what a military person understands. Doesn't say they were used at bait in there at all. Doesn't mention "bait" either.

Says that "FSB were sometimes diliderately disposed to invite retaliatory action, tempting the communists to concentrate attacking forces where they could be engaged and destoryed."

All this means is that they were put in places where they know they would be likely to be attacked in order to draw out the enemy and do battle with him within range of the FSB. You are picking your place to do battle, not the enemy picking the place. That is aggressive offensive opoerations, not bait. The goal is to find and destroy the enemy so you can kill him. This was especially hard in Vietnam since the goal of the enemy was to blend in with the popluation and not be drawn out into large-scale battles. Also, FSBs did not have just artillery units on them. Most had at least a Tank Co and an Infantry Co, they could definitely hold their own.

" Diliderately disposed to invite retaliatory action", Isn't that what you are doing when you put a chunk of meat on a hook and through it to the sharks!
I can show you photos of some of the spots this artillary battery was moved to early on in the conflict in Vietnam, on operation for weeks sometimes longer, it's pretty basic, I remember, my son's grandfather telling of an operation, they were out in the middle of no where, they had an infantry unit attacted to them, nilly every night they were there they were attacked, they carried out an attack witch lasted all night, they had broken through the infantry and wipped them out, they were orderd to lower the howitzers put a charge in and fill it with nails, rocks, etc, and fire it out, he said when the morning come all you could see was little black dots as the helicopters arrived, they landed beer( beer to a marnie is a big thing), comics & playboys, brought mail, landed in CB started build a runway, His then went on to say " They had all these resourses at there disposal and they left us here to fu*ken rot"
Even at some of the larger bases he was at they have a 50 cal mounted on there ammo bunker for the attack on the base.

No, that is what you do when you are trying to draw the enemy to the position on the battlefield where you want to fight him at.

Again, sounds like a standard operation to me. Artillery is there to support the greater fight, not die in place. To a young Marine (or Soldier) who is scared and under attack, it may seem like he is being hung out to dy. I guess it all comes down to a civilian's point of view and a military point of view. By the way, it is standard practice to lower your tube and shoot whatever you have into the enemy to kill him and keep from being overrun. The alternative is death or capture. Neither are ones I would like to experience.

You are still using Artillary or FSB or Infantry as the "bait" to draw them out.

You call it a spade and I'll call it a shovel! it still diggs a hole.

You can call it whatever you want. In combat operations, you take some chances to do what you have to do. We are Combat Arms (Infantry and Artillery), our job is to close with and destroy the enemy. That is how we do it. We take the fight to him, not sit around and fight where he wants us to and on his terms.

Again, the military view vs. a civilian view. Sorry, that is how I see it.

Don't be sorry, I agree about taking the fight to them? But part of the FSB concept was to bring them to the fight on your terms bait them to come in and them destroy them. using all element at your desposal.

Yes, I agree, partly. The point is to get them to where you want them and then destroy them, I don't see that as using them as "bait" or "hanging them out to dry" though, just sound military ops. "Bait "and "hanging them out to dry" implies that they are not supported with supplies, firepower, manpower, etc. and are meant to fail. That simply is not how it was. Words have certain meanings in military terms, that are not recognized by others.

I never said hanging them out to dry, I know my son's grandfather was pissed off that they weren't supported that time the heilcopters didn't arrive till it was all over. The beer dosn't taste to good when you are putting your mates into body bags.

Sorry, I misquoted you. You said "...they left us here to fu*ken rot"

Same thing. But got it.

They were my son's grandfather's words, it was in 65 or 66 early he stayed till 68 so he may have been pissed of but he got over it and kept on fighting.

I think what gave him that fealing was seeing them do some much afther wards, they(CB) built a runway, ETC, if they could bring in all these resourses why didn't they do it before.

A Fire Support Base isn't built over night. It takes time to do all that. I'm sure the runway, etc. wasn't built in one day. When you first get to any postition, you start out small and continue to improve it the longer you are there. Its called position improvement. When I first got to Kuwait/Iraq, we were living on cots under camo nets to keep the sun off us and not much else. We had some thinly bermed up walls with concertina on them and the entrances guarded by HMMWVs with light MGs on top for our base camp. By the time I left, we had portable buldings with A/C and a real mess hall. Double depth 12' berms with concertina wire and a mine field between them, and steel and concrete guard towers with .50 cals on the sides and at entry points. That is just the way it is. It sucks being the first guys in.

The CB didn't mess around from what i have heard and read. They have completed some massive tasks in all wars.

The SeaBees (not CBs) do work quick and did/do great things. Stuff still takes time to finish though.

It is CB for Construction Battalion SeaBees is there nickname seabees- CB.

O.K., makes sense now.

In the 1st Gulf war were Army and Marnie actions combined?

All this time I thought it was for "SEABornE EngineerS" , learned something new today.

Yes and no. Strictly speaking the Marines and Army units were only combined once and that was the Tiger Brigade consisting of Army M1A1 tanks and Bradleys (?) to support a Marine units relatively outdated M-60A3 (or A2?) tanks. But other than that, the Army and Marines had a different general mission: the Marines were to take Kuwait, the Army to flank north and then east in the so-called "Hail Mary" play. But by all means the two different missions were coordinated but not necessarily combined.

Jeff

Jeff is pretty much spot on. Different, but coordinated missions.




Tiger BDE was only the Tank Bns from 2nd Bde 2AR DIV, no infantry. They were actually augmenting the Marines who had M60A1 w/ERA tanks. The USMC didn't buy M60A3s since they were saving their money for the M1IP Abrams. Original M1IP and M60A3s were pretty close in firepower and optics, etc.



Amazing how these threads weave around to new subjects.

Wow, Live and learn. Thanks guys. I would have figured "walking" into battle with only what you could carry was not the most desirable MOS. For "highly motivated' officers, I understand that it's a completly different story. From some dim memory, I recall that the top slots, Chief of Staff level, only go to Infantry, Artillery or Armor officers.

BTW if you have ever seen the movie "No Time for Sargeants", the horrible accent of Will Stockdale's buddy made the word infantry, sound like in-Fan-tree.

Infantry doesn't only mean Light Infantry. You can be Mech Infantry as well, which means riding into battle on/in a Bradley or a Stryker. Or Airborne, jumping out of airplanes. (Never understood that myself though. Why jump out of a perfectly good aircraft?)

Yes, only Combat Arms (Armor, Infantry, and Field Artillery, sometimes Aviation, ADA, and Engineers too) officers can go into the highest level slots. Same for Commanding a Division and above, gotta be Combat Arms.