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Artillery unit? Section Chief's role?
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:40 PM UTC
In an Artillary unit what is the Section Cheif's role?
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, March 20, 2006 - 07:52 PM UTC
Section chief is in charge of a gun section and the welfare of7-9 men. He is also the one who does all the final safety checks and confirms the right ammo/charge, etc, is fired.
Zacman
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 06:25 AM UTC
What's the tittle of the NCO that is incharge of the Battery?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 06:27 AM UTC
First Sergeant, a.k.a. Top, with a rank of E-8.
Zacman
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 06:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
First Sergeant, a.k.a. Top, with a rank of E-8.
What dose top, with rank of E-8 mean?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 06:44 AM UTC
Also called "Top", as a nickname. It cames from the First Sergeant being the top NCO in the battery/company/troop, etc. His rank is E-8, looks like this.
USMC First Sergeant rank:
The diamond denotes a First Sergeant. Without the diamond he is a Master Sergeant.
USMC E-8 rank:
Army E-8 is the same minus the rifles.
USMC First Sergeant rank:
The diamond denotes a First Sergeant. Without the diamond he is a Master Sergeant.
USMC E-8 rank:
Army E-8 is the same minus the rifles.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 07:24 AM UTC
The section Chief is the dude who never wants to hear the words, "Rear of the piece, face the piece."
If memory serves, the NCOIC, or HMFIC, as it were, is also called Chief of Smoke.
If memory serves, the NCOIC, or HMFIC, as it were, is also called Chief of Smoke.
TacFireGuru
Joined: December 25, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 07:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The section Chief is the dude who never wants to hear the words, "Rear of the piece, face the piece."
THOSE ARE SOME BAD WORDS TO HEAR!!!! I've had the unfortunate instance of initiating that. UGLY!
Mike (++) (++)
woltersk
Joined: May 27, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 07:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe section Chief is the dude who never wants to hear the words, "Rear of the piece, face the piece."
THOSE ARE SOME BAD WORDS TO HEAR!!!! I've had the unfortunate instance of initiating that. UGLY!
Mike (++) (++)
Okay Guys,
Enlighten a poor Air Force (E7) puke.
I can surmise that the 'piece' is the artillery hardware itself, but who, or what, is the 'Rear of the piece'? And why is it bad to 'face’ it?
On another note for ZACMAN--the 'E' in E8 stands for Enlisted with a pay grade of '8' out of 1 thru 9. Privates are E1s.
In the same vein officers are 'O's. So a second lieutenant is an 'O1.'
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 08:44 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Okay Guys,
Enlighten a poor Air Force (E7) puke.
I can surmise that the 'piece' is the artillery hardware itself, but who, or what, is the 'Rear of the piece'? And why is it bad to 'face’ it?
On another note for ZACMAN--the 'E' in E8 stands for Enlisted with a pay grade of '8' out of 1 thru 9. Privates are E1s.
In the same vein officers are 'O's. So a second lieutenant is an 'O1.'
It means your gun has fired in the wrong location. Not necessarily out of the box, but certainly not where it was supposed to. This command means to stand behind your piece and not touch any settings on your sights, nor to manipulate the gun in any way.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 08:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextThe section Chief is the dude who never wants to hear the words, "Rear of the piece, face the piece."
THOSE ARE SOME BAD WORDS TO HEAR!!!! I've had the unfortunate instance of initiating that. UGLY!
Mike (++) (++)
Okay Guys,
Enlighten a poor Air Force (E7) puke.
I can surmise that the 'piece' is the artillery hardware itself, but who, or what, is the 'Rear of the piece'? And why is it bad to 'face’ it?
On another note for ZACMAN--the 'E' in E8 stands for Enlisted with a pay grade of '8' out of 1 thru 9. Privates are E1s.
In the same vein officers are 'O's. So a second lieutenant is an 'O1.'
To the "Rear of the piece, Face the Piece!!" usually means you just screwed up and put a round in the wrong place, called Firing Out or Shot/Shooting Out. You must let go of all the controls without changing any of the settings and fall in behind the piece. Then an investigating team comes and checks all your data to see why you shot out. Then they determine if it was operator/crew error or not. If it was, you are shut down and have to retrain and recertify (test) in order to fire again. Usually, the worst part is the embarassment and ribbing from your peers that you screwed up and shot out, providing your errant round didn't hurt anyone. If it did, that is a whole other ball of UCMJ wax.
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:40 PM UTC
i know his section cheif in 65 for "I" Batt 3/11 USMC, was a 39 year old ex Iwo jima, Koera, and there for a thrid war, his name was SGT Mc Laughtin, by 3 wars you would think he have it down pat. His nickname was "Pappy"
WOLTERSK, did you serve at the Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio? Did you serve with a Col B.Prim?
WOLTERSK, did you serve at the Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio? Did you serve with a Col B.Prim?
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 08:44 PM UTC
Just some minor clarification. In an artillery battery, the senior NCO,as has been mentioned,is the Battery First Sergeant, whose pay grade is E-8, and whose rank insignia is differentiated from the standard E-8 with a diamond in the middle to denote his position as a First Sergeant. Other nicknames are typically "First Shirt" (NOT usually used to actually address the First SGT) and "Top", which often IS how both junior soldiers as well as the officers will address the First Sergeant.
Within the Battery, there used to be only two "platoons". (There may be more now). The HQ platoon contained the Mess, Maint, Commo, and Supply sections (lovingly referred to as the "ash and trash") and the "Firing Battery" which usually consisted of the howitzer sections, the ammo section and the Fire Direction Center. From probably at least WW II through most of the 80s anyway, the "platoon sergeant" for the Firing Battery was an E-7 (Sergeant First Class) and HE was known as the Chief of Smoke, or "Smoke".
The howitzer sections within the FIring Battery were essentially similar to "squads" with an E-6 in charge of the section and refered to as the Chief of Section rather than Squad Leader.
One unusual difference between an Artillery Battery and a Tank/Infantry Company.
In the latter, it is usually the Company Commander who "fights" the unit, and he does this through the "platoon leaders". The Executive Officer is the one who will be looking after the "ash and trash".
In an artillery battery it's the reverse. The XO, as the "Firing Battery Commander" is the one who can be viewed as "fighting" the unit, and at least during my tenure, it was the Battery Commander (the REAL BC) who with the First Sergeant, handled both the Advance Party as well as paying attention to the "trains".
Gino, still pretty much the same???
Tom
Within the Battery, there used to be only two "platoons". (There may be more now). The HQ platoon contained the Mess, Maint, Commo, and Supply sections (lovingly referred to as the "ash and trash") and the "Firing Battery" which usually consisted of the howitzer sections, the ammo section and the Fire Direction Center. From probably at least WW II through most of the 80s anyway, the "platoon sergeant" for the Firing Battery was an E-7 (Sergeant First Class) and HE was known as the Chief of Smoke, or "Smoke".
The howitzer sections within the FIring Battery were essentially similar to "squads" with an E-6 in charge of the section and refered to as the Chief of Section rather than Squad Leader.
One unusual difference between an Artillery Battery and a Tank/Infantry Company.
In the latter, it is usually the Company Commander who "fights" the unit, and he does this through the "platoon leaders". The Executive Officer is the one who will be looking after the "ash and trash".
In an artillery battery it's the reverse. The XO, as the "Firing Battery Commander" is the one who can be viewed as "fighting" the unit, and at least during my tenure, it was the Battery Commander (the REAL BC) who with the First Sergeant, handled both the Advance Party as well as paying attention to the "trains".
Gino, still pretty much the same???
Tom
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 10:07 PM UTC
Light battery is still pretty much the same. For Paladins though, there is no XO, just 2 PLs, 2 FDOs and the BC. The PLs, with guidance and direction from the BC, fight the PLTs separately. More is put on the Sect Chiefs too, since they are expected to follow the maneuver and fight from Paladin Zones (basically a route along the manuever axis), no longer from a set Battery PAA or firing point. They have to navigate and bound like maneuver forces. Paladins are fought more like maneuver than traditional FA used to be.
woltersk
Joined: May 27, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 06:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
WOLTERSK, did you serve at the Air Force Base in Dayton Ohio? Did you serve with a Col B.Prim?
Mark,
I am currently stationed at Wright-Patterson AFB in the Dayton area.
Been here 3 years but do not recall a Colonel Prim.
Is he American or Aussie? There are a few Australians and Brits running around here.
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 06:48 AM UTC
Woltersk, He was U.S. Airforce COL, I think he commanded that base in Dayton before his retirement, he is ex ww2 ,korea and Vietnam vintage.
My son's father was born in Dayton Ohio, was "the first from Dayton to Da-Nang", There is an amvet's club some where out of Dayton, the prick (RON BROWN)still owes him a lot of money for the club- pass the word around that he ripped off a Vet.
My son's father was born in Dayton Ohio, was "the first from Dayton to Da-Nang", There is an amvet's club some where out of Dayton, the prick (RON BROWN)still owes him a lot of money for the club- pass the word around that he ripped off a Vet.
woltersk
Joined: May 27, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 07:35 AM UTC
18Bravo & Gino,
Thanks for the explanation. I can see that it can be some bad juju for the gun crew and the poor guys downrange.
It must be similar to what an aircraft maintenance unit goes through after a mishap (read that: plane crash). Everyone's training records get yanked out of the workcenter, all the aircraft's records get pulled, and all the maintainers get to stand around nervously at the base hospital waiting in line for the mandatory drug test, wondering if it was something they did wrong that may have caused the loss of hardware, or worse, loss of an aircrew. I still get chills just thinking about it...
Thanks for the explanation. I can see that it can be some bad juju for the gun crew and the poor guys downrange.
It must be similar to what an aircraft maintenance unit goes through after a mishap (read that: plane crash). Everyone's training records get yanked out of the workcenter, all the aircraft's records get pulled, and all the maintainers get to stand around nervously at the base hospital waiting in line for the mandatory drug test, wondering if it was something they did wrong that may have caused the loss of hardware, or worse, loss of an aircrew. I still get chills just thinking about it...
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 01:05 PM UTC
[quote].
One unusual difference between an Artillery Battery and a Tank/Infantry Company.
quote]
My son's grandfather made the comment that " Tank drivers were a law unto themselves" He told me they would have beer and girl's in there tanks as they went tearing through vietnam, good luck to them.
One unusual difference between an Artillery Battery and a Tank/Infantry Company.
quote]
My son's grandfather made the comment that " Tank drivers were a law unto themselves" He told me they would have beer and girl's in there tanks as they went tearing through vietnam, good luck to them.
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 07:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
For Paladins though, there is no XO, just 2 PLs, 2 FDOs and the BC. The PLs, with guidance and direction from the BC, fight the PLTs separately. More is put on the Sect Chiefs too, since they are expected to follow the maneuver and fight from Paladin Zones (basically a route along the manuever axis), no longer from a set Battery PAA or firing point. They have to navigate and bound like maneuver forces. Paladins are fought more like maneuver than traditional FA used to be.
That sure is a much better way to employ the artillery to support the fight. Does each PLT now have 4 pieces for an 8 gun battery? (I'm assuming Bns still have 3 "letter" batteries, and the DivArty has 3 DS Bns plus one MLRS Bn for GS, or is that just a single battery?).
Tom
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 08:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
That sure is a much better way to employ the artillery to support the fight. Does each PLT now have 4 pieces for an 8 gun battery? (I'm assuming Bns still have 3 "letter" batteries, and the DivArty has 3 DS Bns plus one MLRS Bn for GS, or is that just a single battery?).
Tom
During OIF, that was pretty much how we, 3ID, and all other divisions were set up. Only we had 3 x 6 Paladin Batteries, not 8. Sombody got the great idea that since Paladin coud do so much, we didn't need as many and cut the Batteries when they were fielded.
Fast forward to post OIF and the new Modular BDE concept. It is currently set up with a DS Bn that is 2 x 8 Paladin, a TA PLT of 1 Q-36 and 1 Q-37 and some small UAVs, and an MLRS PLT of 2 luanchers, an HHB, and a Forward Support Company out of the old FSB, now called a BSB (BDE Support Bn). No Service Batteries anymore. No MLRS Bn at Div, all are now at Ft Sill under III Corps Arty as GS. Some divisions, like 3ID and 4ID will have a Fires BDE (sort of like DIVARTY, which is also no more) that will include an MLRS BN and another Paladin Bn for GSR, but not all will have them. FA Bn CDR's rater and Battery CDR's SR is now the BDE CDR too since DIVARTY is gone. That is the latest incarnation. Still changing almost daily. Semper Gumby!!
thathaway3
Joined: September 10, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
FA Bn CDR's rater and Battery CDR's SR is now the BDE CDR too since DIVARTY is gone. That is the latest incarnation. Still changing almost daily.
Semper Gumby!!
That's an interesting concept. In a way from a wartime perspective, nothing like having the guy you support write your OER. But with SR profiles the way the are, what maneuver unit commander is going to put an FA CPT above center of mass at the expense of a fellow grunt/tanker. (I doubt they allow the FA to be considered in a different group, do they?)
As Artie Johnson used to say, "Feeeerry Entershting!"
Tom
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 05:40 AM UTC
You hit the nail on the head w/the SR profile. It will be interresting to see how it all shakes out. And no, the FA guys are in the same pool as the maneuver guys.
Zacman
Joined: January 27, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 06:31 AM UTC
[quote]
Can some one explain this in layman's terms please?
Quoted Text
FA Bn CDR's rater and Battery CDR's SR is now the BDE CDR too since DIVARTY is gone. That is the latest incarnation. Still changing almost daily.
Semper Gumby!!
Can some one explain this in layman's terms please?
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 06:51 AM UTC
[quote]
Each Officer is given a written Officer Evaluation Report (OER) anually on his performance. It used to be written by FA officers for FA guys. That meant you only competed against other FA guys for the Senior Rater (SR) Profile. The SR can only award 49% of his rated officers in each grade (2LT, 1LT, CPT, MAJ, etc.) an Above Center of Mass (ACoM) report (the highest you can get). Now that the BDE commander (an Infantry or Armor guy) is rating you against his guys as well, it may be less likely that he will give an FA CPT a ACoM report over an INF or AR CPT. The ACoM is crucial to a CPT when he is in command of a Battery or Company. If he doesn't receive at least one ACoM as a commander, he will most likely not be promoted to MAJ. The BDE commander is suppose to be indifferent to branch and rate the officer on his performance compared to the other officers that he rates. It remains to be seen if this happens.
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
FA Bn CDR's rater and Battery CDR's SR is now the BDE CDR too since DIVARTY is gone. That is the latest incarnation. Still changing almost daily.
Semper Gumby!!
Can some one explain this in layman's terms please?
Each Officer is given a written Officer Evaluation Report (OER) anually on his performance. It used to be written by FA officers for FA guys. That meant you only competed against other FA guys for the Senior Rater (SR) Profile. The SR can only award 49% of his rated officers in each grade (2LT, 1LT, CPT, MAJ, etc.) an Above Center of Mass (ACoM) report (the highest you can get). Now that the BDE commander (an Infantry or Armor guy) is rating you against his guys as well, it may be less likely that he will give an FA CPT a ACoM report over an INF or AR CPT. The ACoM is crucial to a CPT when he is in command of a Battery or Company. If he doesn't receive at least one ACoM as a commander, he will most likely not be promoted to MAJ. The BDE commander is suppose to be indifferent to branch and rate the officer on his performance compared to the other officers that he rates. It remains to be seen if this happens.
md72
#439
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Posted: Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 09:54 AM UTC
Gino,
Without a minute of military service, I can only make out a third of that last post. I take it that someone with on specality is going to rate fellow officers with that same specality as better "qualified", more "efficient" or whatever than an officer with a different specality. That part doesn't change in the civilian world.
BTW isn't "Top" a short version of "Top Kick" also a term for the most senior sargent around?
Without a minute of military service, I can only make out a third of that last post. I take it that someone with on specality is going to rate fellow officers with that same specality as better "qualified", more "efficient" or whatever than an officer with a different specality. That part doesn't change in the civilian world.
BTW isn't "Top" a short version of "Top Kick" also a term for the most senior sargent around?
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